What must one do to be saved???

[Ruht]

"Your 'translation' of my post is incorrect. Let me 'translate' it myself: Salvation is by the continual cleansing of Christ's blood (1 John 1:7) which a Christian has IF they walk in the light and not by the fictitious one time pouring out of wrath that the heretic John Calvin concocted in his depraved mind when, professing to be wise, he became a fool."

Translation: "Walking in the light," according to the legalist, means "following Jesus;" which means "obeying the written commandments of Jesus;" which means one is therefore not saved by faith in the blood of Christ, but by obeying written commandments.

Which means one is trying to be justified through written law.

The dog has returned to his own vomit.

"1 Corinthians 4:6 "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

There is not a man more puffed up, than one who thinks he can gain salvation through his own righteousness.

God bless.

 

[SolaScriptura]

"Walking in the light," according to the legalist, means "following Jesus;" which means "obeying the written commandments of Jesus;"

There's nothing else that it could mean.

(1 John 1:7) "But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, THEN we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

 

[Ruht]

"Walking in the light," according to the legalist, means "following Jesus;" which means "obeying the written commandments of Jesus;"

"There's nothing else that it could mean."

The legalist has it all figured out, and his interpretation is right in his own eyes.

I ask you, legalist, what does the following mean:

"The cat is green."

Please tell me what I mean by that.

But before you try, here is what it doesn't mean:

The word "cat" does not stand for a house cat, and the word "green" does not mean that the house cat is green in color. Also, the word "cat" does not stand for a lion, and the word "green" does not mean that the lion is sick. Also, the word "cat" does not stand for a jazz musician, and the word "green" does not mean that the jazz musician is new in the band... etc.

Now, since you claim yourself qualified to be able to properly interpret scripture, the writings of God, then demonstrate your abilities and interpret what I have just written, a being far less complex than God.

Take your time.

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." - I Corinthians 2:11

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:" - I Corinthians 2:7

The Lord taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

God bless.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Explain then, what walking in the light means. By the way, your example is ridiculous because it has no context and because you have purposefully loaded a short contextless statement with hidden meaning.

(John 3:19-21 KJV) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. {20} For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. {21} But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Based on this, "walking in the light" (1 John 1:7) must mean entering Christ and allowing our deeds to be made manifest that they are not evil for they are wrought in God.

[ August 17, 2002, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

[Ruht]

"Explain then, what walking in the light means."

It means being saved and born of the Holy Spirit.

How can it mean "obeying written commandments," when it says "If we walk in the light, as he is in the light...?" Is Christ in the light by obeying written commandments? As he is in the light, we are to walk in the light. And he is in the light by having a Holy spirit, not by being justified through written commandments.

Once again, you stumble.

"By the way, your example is ridiculous because it has no context and because you have purposefully loaded a short contextless statement with hidden meaning."

I could write an entire book, and you still would not be able to tell me what I mean by "the cat is green," especially if I have "hidden" the meaning, as you say.

Which bears witness of you yet again, and of your spiritual blindness. For, didn't I just cite:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory." - I Corinthians 2:7

Your short-sightedness is astounding, and bears witness of what the Bible states about they who cannot understand the things of God.

You cannot tell me what I mean by "the cat is green," because only the author can properly interpret what it is he has written; especially if it is indeed hidden, as is the Bible.

This is precisely what I Corinthians 2:6-14 is referring to.

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? (the cat is green) even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." - I Corinthians 2:11

Are you able to understand that yet, legalist? For it bears witness of exactly what the real problem is as to why you cannot interpret "the cat is green." For it is trying to tell you that only the person who wrote "the cat is green" knows for sure what the proper interpretation is of what he wrote. Everyone else can only guess, suppose and assume, until the author reveals what he means by what he has written, to the person or people he chooses to reveal it to.

In the meantime, foolish men come along and think they know what the Bible means, and they say things like "it can't mean anything else." Which is the equivalence of a person coming along and saying that my "the cat is green" means a kitty cat is the color green, and that it can't mean anything else.

Both are wrong, and foolish.

Your interpretations of the Bible are based on your own natural understanding, not from the Holy Spirit. And this can be discerned by those who know better, those who know and understand grace. You have a lot of puffed up self-adulation, which equates to foolishness. You interpret scripture on your already pre-conceived notion that salvation can be lost, and thus you interpret scripture into that already pre-conceived notion.

This is the equivalence of a cat lover thinking that "the cat is green" is referring to a kitty cat; a lion lover thinking it is referring to a lion; and a jazz lover thinking it is referring to a jazz musician. Because of their already pre-conceived state of mind, the foundation from which they view life, they are influenced by such, and thus they take for granted things they ought not, and interpret things into what they already believe, not as they really are.

And likewise, because you do not understand salvation, and you naturally think a person is justified by a lifelong effort of trying to obey God, you then therefore interpret scripture into that already pre-conceived belief, not from the sure foundation of grace, that which the author has laid.

And guess what, God wrote the Bible that way intentionally. For he has hidden grace from those who have not believed in grace. For had you truly believed in grace, then you would not yield to scripture which sounds as if it is saying something else, but you would wait upon the sure foundation, not interpreting scripture in haste, and wait for God to open your eyes as to what it really means.

The Bible bears witness that you are not interpreting scripture through the Holy Spirit, in I Corinthians 2:12. But it is highly unlikely that you can even discern that, and what it means.

I am not putting you down personally, but simply telling you the truth.

"(John 3:19-21 KJV) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. {20} For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. {21} But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

"Based on this, "walking in the light" (1 John 1:7) must mean entering Christ and allowing our deeds to be made manifest that they are not evil for they are wrought in God."

And how say you is that done?

God bless.

 

[lookbeyond]

I have found this thread interesting, but lacking, in my opinion, of a correct understanding of what "being saved" means! Saved from what is my question? Christ is known as the Savior....the one who redeemed all mankind......from what? The "original sin" has been mentioned....some believe we are still under this sin....what was it? Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden were given two commandments: Multiply and repelnish the earth! The second: "Thou shalt not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, in the day thou shall eat thereof, thou shalt surely die." God spoke further and said, "nevertheless, thou may choose for thy self! The command and consequence was given! Enter Satan......who beguiled or flattered Eve into eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.....her consequence would be death! Adam realizing the first commandment could not be kept without her, chose likewise to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, causing his body to likewise become corruptible and eventually die!
We learn from this record of events, that Adam and Eve were immortal in their original state of being when placed in the Garden: They had direct communication with God! Their transgression removed them from the Garden and they were cast out into the lone and dreary world to make their own way by the sweat of their brow...out of the direct communication and presence of Diety. (spiritual death) They also brought physical death into the world through their transgression! Hence we see the hopelessness that existed in OT times of death and dying....for there was no knowledge of the resurrection! The need for a Redeemer was created by the events that transpired in the Garden of Eden! Someone who could conquer the grave and provide a way to conquer the spiritual death or separation from their Father in Heaven! As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive! 1 Cor 15:3;21-22. This was a divine plan before the world was created! Christ was forordained before the world began! 2 Tim.1:8-10 ..."our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought LIFE and IMMORTALITY to light through the gospel." Resurrection from the grave is a free gift from God to ALL MANKIND born to the earth! Righteous, wicked, white, black, believer or non-believer! All will be resurrected because of the sacrifice of the Savior....who also died for the sins of the world, that whosoever should believe on Him would be saved......from the spiritual death! Christ ushered in the "new covenant" the covenant of baptism! The gospel of Jesus Christ was taught to man that he might overcome the world and return to that spiritual relationship once enjoyed, through exercising faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and receipt of the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands! We are saved from death, a free gift from God, not by any act of our own!! But regaining the presence of the Father is contingent upon our faithfulness in keeping the commandments of God, given to us through Jesus Christ, who purchased us with His blood, that all who will, may be saved unto eternal life, but obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ is prerequisite.....faith, repentance & baptism! And receipt of the Gift of the Holy Ghost! Being saved in not an event.....it is a process, why else did the Savior purchase us with His blood, contingent upon our willingness to repent and receive forgiveness through the blood of Christ? Those who do not believe in His redeeming sacrifice, will suffer for their own sins until justice is satisfied and the arms of mercy is then empowered to reclaim them! Heb. 10:26 This is the gospel of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation for the children of men, the offspring of Diety who gave them life! Heb 5:8-9 Hebrews 12:9 Acts 17:28-29 All mankind will be saved physically and eventually spiritually as well, excepting those who shed innocent blood and deny or blasphemy the Holy Ghost.

 

[Dualhunter]

When Christ died for our sins, He paid for them in full. He is not in the process of paying for them, He has paid for them in full once and for all. It's not a process, it's a done deal.

 

[lookbeyond]

"the entire act of death includes hell" May I make a comment with regards to the thief on the cross and the statement that Christ made to him, "today shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Some see this as the final state of heaven.....it is not and a careful reading of the scripture will tell you otherwise. After his death and burial, Christ returned alone without the thief at his side, and appeared unto Mary at the tomb, and when she put forth her arms to embrace Him, He said, "touch me not for I have not yet ascended unto my Father". He was not yet resurrected with His physical body! This Paradise spoken of is the place where all spirits go when the physical body dies.....Christ was included because He was mortal, and died, again setting the example to all of us! Paradise is a "spirit prison" where all spirits wait on the time of the resurrection, when their bodies and spirits will be reunited, never to die again. What is going on in this world of the spirits? 1 Peter 3:18-20 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God, being but to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, whil the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." 1 Peter 4:6 "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." Isa. 24:22 and Isa. 42:6-7 and Job 33:27-29 all make reference to a pit or prison from which the Savior would redeem those who never had opportunity to learn of the Gospel of Jesus Christ while on the earth. 1 Cor. 15:29 tells of the lack of understanding of the resurrection, yet being taught the people, as they were introduced to the doctrine of baptism for the dead......The thief went to where all spirits go when we die....to spirit prison to await the resurrection day and be taught further the gospel of Jesus Christ..........

 

[Ruht]

"But regaining the presence of the Father is contingent upon our faithfulness in keeping the commandments of God, given to us through Jesus Christ, who purchased us with His blood, that all who will, may be saved unto eternal life, but obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ is prerequisite.....faith, repentance & baptism!

Then you yourself will not be saved, for no one has kept the written commandments of God; at least not by letter.

This statement of yours is not from the Holy Spirit, but is based on legalism, a bewitching spirit. For we are not saved by obedience to written laws, but only through faith in the blood of Christ, what he did upon the cross, his atoning sacrifice. And the law is not of faith, any written law.

Listen to what the Spirit said to some others who thought salvation was only "contingent" upon obedience to written laws:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish, having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain." - Galatians 3:1-4

What the Holy Spirit was saying here is that if we are only originally saved through grace, through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ, not by the works of any written law, then why now did these "foolish Galatians" think that obedience to written laws after they were saved was the only way to remain saved? He was telling them that the only way a person remains saved is in the same way he was saved in the first place, not by a way that was not able to save them in the first place.

Obedience to written law does not save anyone, ever, nor does it keep anyone saved, ever. The only way someone is saved is through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. And the only way anyone stays saved is through that same faith, not through the works of the law, any written laws.

These Galatians were told by the Holy Spirit through Paul that the things they were doing and "suffering" to try to insure their salvation through obedience to written laws, were in vain, as that is not the way a person can ever be justified.

Obedience to the commandments of Christ is good, if it fulfills the righteousness of the written commandments, as we do so by nature when we are born again of the Holy Spirit. But it does not save anyone by doing so, nor keep anyone saved.

God bless.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Listen to what the Spirit said to some others who thought salvation was only "contingent" upon obedience to written laws:

I did not say salvation is only contingent upon obedience to written laws, nor did I imply it, nor do I believe it. You simply want to read that in through your stubbornness.

Keeping of the Law could never save anyone. Why? Doing good deeds does not erase previous bad deeds. Kepping a commandment now does not erase the fact that one was previously broken, etc.

So, Jesus came and lived a sinless life, keeping the whole Law and then died for ALL MEN shedding His blood for the remission of sins. As a result of His obedience to God, "Jesus, being made perfect, became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Heb 5:9) -- Now then, salvation does depend on obedience to Christ, but this is wholly different from keeping the Law. When we obey the Law, nothing happens because obeying the Law now does not erase the fact that we broke it yesterday. When we obey Jesus, however, He erases our old sins and imputes to us His own righteousness (He kept the Law perfectly remember).

"It is finished" refers to the sacrifice NOT TO THE APPLICATION OF IT. The completed part is the sacrifice! If salvation were completed already, then what need would we have still of a priest? But Jesus is still our High Priest. If it were completed, what need would we have of a mediator? But Jesus is still our ONE Mediator. Is there something left to be done? Why must He mediate? Why must He advocate? Why must we repent? Why must we ASK forgiveness? Why does He still forgive? Why must the blood continually cleanse while we walk in the light? There is a continual nature to salvation.

 

[Ruht]

"Listen to what the Spirit said to some others who thought salvation was only "contingent" upon obedience to written laws:"

"I did not say salvation is only contingent upon obedience to written laws, nor did I imply it, nor do I believe it. You simply want to read that in through your stubbornness."

Huh? I wasn't talking to you, I believe I was answering "lookbeyond;" unless you are registered under more than one name.

Apparently you do a lot of reading in haste, don't you; just like with the Bible.

"Keeping of the Law could never save anyone. Why? Doing good deeds does not erase previous bad deeds. Kepping a commandment now does not erase the fact that one was previously broken, etc.

So, Jesus came and lived a sinless life, keeping the whole Law and then died for ALL MEN shedding His blood for the remission of sins."

Jesus kept the "whole law" by keeping the righteousness of the law, not by keeping the letter of the law. For Christ broke the letter of the law, in order to fulfill the righteousness of the law.

If Christ had to keep the letter of the law in order to be righteous, then righteousness would have been by the letter of the law.

But it is not.

"As a result of His obedience to God, "Jesus, being made perfect, became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Heb 5:9) -- Now then, salvation does depend on obedience to Christ, but this is wholly different from keeping the Law. When we obey the Law, nothing happens because obeying the Law now does not erase the fact that we broke it yesterday. When we obey Jesus, however, He erases our old sins and imputes to us His own righteousness (He kept the Law perfectly remember)."

"Obeying him" means to believe in him, and to be born of his Holy Spirit, for he has "commanded" not to try to be justified through written commandment.

The Lord taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

"It is finished" refers to the sacrifice NOT TO THE APPLICATION OF IT. The completed part is the sacrifice! If salvation were completed already, then what need would we have still of a priest?"

If salvation were not completed, and therefore sin was ever imputed unto us again, we would then need a sacrifice, again.

Your theology is proof you do not have faith in the blood of Christ, but in your own righteousness.

"But Jesus is still our High Priest. If it were completed, what need would we have of a mediator? But Jesus is still our ONE Mediator. Is there something left to be done? Why must He mediate? Why must He advocate? Why must we repent?"

Does he "mediate," and "advocate" for us when we "obey" his written commandments, or when we have faith in his blood?

And we "repent" from unbelief, not from not trying to be justified through written commandments.

Again, the Lord taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

"Why must we ASK forgiveness?"

Huh? Interpreting scripture in haste again, are you, Sola?

"Why does He still forgive? Why must the blood continually cleanse while we walk in the light? There is a continual nature to salvation."

And does the blood "forgive" when we try to justify ourselves through written commandment, or when we have faith in that blood?

You are stumbling.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; but IS passed from death unto life."" - John 5:24

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me HATH everlasting life." - John 6:47

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, HATH eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:54

I HAVE salvation NOW, my friend, and Jesus says so.

Your mistakes are because you do not trust in Christ, but in your own works.

But we which have believed do enter into rest. And those who have not entered into his rest do so because they have not believed. (Hebrews 4)

We are at rest who trust in Christ, for we know it is indeed finished and there is nothing more we need to do to be saved, as we are already saved, forever. However, the unbelieving go about trying to work their way into heaven, and therefore are not in his rest.

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (Hebrews 4:10)

God bless.

 

[Frank]

Ruht:
Belief itself is a work. In John 6:28,29, The apostles asked What must we do to work the works of God. According to you he said NOTHING. However, Jesus said, this is the work of God that you believe on him whom he hath sent. Belief is the action verb of faith. You simply do not understand the very basics of what constitutes biblical faith. Faith that saves is active, always has been, always will be. Hebrews 11:6, Roms. 16:26. THERE IS NOT ONE EXAMPLE OF ANY PERSON BEING SAVED WITHOUT AN OBEDIENT ACTIVE FAITH, NOT ONE. When one is baptized and keeps God's commandments,and ALL OF HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS, PS. 119:172, he expresses his love for God who has DONE FOR US WHAT WE COULD NEVER DO FOR OURSELVES. Titus 2:11-14, Col. 2:12, Eph. 1:7;2:8,9;3:12.
Which commandment can you not obey and be saved? Do you get to pick and chose which one(s) you will obey and which one(s) you will ignore? If so, how do you know which one(s)?
Will disobedience be rewarded by entering Heaven?
The Bible teaches different. Hebrews 2:1,2,Roms. 5:19,21;6:23.

 

[Ruht]

"Belief itself is a work.

Belief is not the type of work done to EARN salvation. It is an action.

I ask you: Was it a work, in the sense of earning something, to freely eat from the tree of life, or was it an action to eat from it? Were Adam and Eve required to follow a list if rules and commandments all their lives to eat from it, or could they have simply walked up to the tree of life, taken a piece of fruit, and freely eaten it and thus, had eternal life?

"In John 6:28,29, The apostles asked What must we do to work the works of God. According to you he said NOTHING. However, Jesus said, this is the work of God that you believe on him whom he hath sent."

What he was saying is that no works are required, that all that is required is FAITH IN THE WORK OF CHRIST.

"Belief is the action verb of faith. You simply do not understand the very basics of what constitutes biblical faith."

I certainly do. You simply apparently do not understand salvation by grace, or what salvation by works means.

"Faith that saves is active, always has been, always will be. Hebrews 11:6, Roms. 16:26. THERE IS NOT ONE EXAMPLE OF ANY PERSON BEING SAVED WITHOUT AN OBEDIENT ACTIVE FAITH, NOT ONE."

OK, SMART GUY, TELL ME WHAT "ACTIVE FAITH" IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST IS, NOT FAITH IN WORKS.

I WILL SHOW YOU MY FAITH IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST BY MY WORK OF NOT TRYING TO WORK MY WAY INTO HEAVEN, AND APPARENTLY YOU WILL SHOW ME YOUR FAITH IN WORKS BY YOU TRYING TO WORK YOUR WAY INTO HEAVEN.

And as the Bible says, through that the Lord INDEED TAKES THE WISE IN THEIR OWN CRAFTINESS, FOOL.

I hope that is plain enough for you, "Frank."

"When one is baptized and keeps God's commandments,and ALL OF HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS, PS. 119:172, he expresses his love for God who has DONE FOR US WHAT WE COULD NEVER DO FOR OURSELVES. Titus 2:11-14, Col. 2:12, Eph. 1:7;2:8,9;3:12."

You don't keep his commandments, hypocrite, at least not by letter. So you don't know what you are talking about.

"Which commandment can you not obey and be saved?"

ALL OF THEM. FOR A PERSON IS NOT SAVED BY OBEYING WRITTEN COMMANDMENTS, BUT BY FAITH IN THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST.

ALL SINS AND BROKEN COMMANDMENTS ARE FORGIVEN UNTO MEN, FRANK.

Clear enough?

"Do you get to pick and chose which one(s) you will obey and which one(s) you will ignore?

The saved obey them all Frank, all the time, even when they break the letter of them.

But this is a mystery unto the spiritually blind legalists like you apparently are, Frank. I pray you grow in the knowledge of the Lord.

"If so, how do you know which one(s)?
Will disobedience be rewarded by entering Heaven?
The Bible teaches different. Hebrews 2:1,2,Roms. 5:19,21;6:23."

The "Bible" says nothing of the sort, rather your interpretation of the Bible is what "says" that to you.

And many have stumbled as you stumble, Frank:

"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the WORKS OF THE LAW, for they STUMBLED at that STUMBLINGSTONE. As it is written, Behold I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." - Romans 9:30-33

Let the wind blow, Frank.

God bless.

 

[lookbeyond]

Ruht, you didn't read my post very carefully or your perceptions not allowing you to understand what I tried to say! Saved from the grave....is a free gift....no keeping the commandments required.....no belief in Jesus Christ of His Father! No obedience....just being entitles us to the gift of the resurrection! Now if resurrection in your understanding is returning to the presence of the Father and Son immediately....I think not. Christ speaking in Corinthians, states something to this effect, "in my Father's house are many mansions, I now to prepare a place for you....and Paul further makes a comparative statement regarding the many degrees of glory that will be found in the heavens, comparing them to the Sun the Moon and the Stars.........in numerous places in the scripture it is mentioned, we will be judged by our works and rewarded accordingly.....this is after each of us stand before the judgement bar of God and judged by the Savior as we give an accounting of our life in mortality and then will we be rewarded accordingly! If our works or obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ are shown to be of diligence and filled with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice, then our reward will be accorded us in purportion to how well we have conquered and endured the trials and tribulations of this life! If we are rewarded with the presence of the Father, then we have been saved from our spiritual death suffered as a consequence of the transgressions in the Garden of Eden! We will have become clean from the blood and sins of this generation and our reward will be worthy of standing in Holy Places, in the presence of God, remembering the scriptures have stated repeatedly...."no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Hence the reason for the gospel being introduced by the Savior, that as we follow His teachings we can be made clean and pure through His atoning sacrifice as we have! He taught faith, repentance and baptism and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost! The Jesus Christ I know, and love made a great and ultimate sacrifice for our sins, contingent upon our faith and repentance and coming into harmony with His teachings..........lip service only is not defined in Holy writ.....as all we need to give to regain the presence of the Father and Son! Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free from the ignorance that abounds in the christian world where fragments of truth and many false doctrines exist. Lip service is the easy way and the non committed way....the no sacrifice or obedience required route....I can't comprehend feeling that lip service is the ultimate way of showing our gratitude for the pain and suffering for sin, our Savior endured. Jesus invitation was, "Come Follow Me"...He set the example and led the way in baptism, the Beattitudes and the Ten Commandments! He came to give us life, and to give it to us more abundantly!! ....and the scriptures tell me so, as do the living prophets and apostles of the restoration of The Church of Jesus Christ on the earth today!

 

[lookbeyond]

One last comment; Forgiveness comes by the grace of God after all we have tried to conquer and overcome in the repentance process! Our faith will sustain us to that point of Grace, if we keep His commandments and follow His example! Faith without works is dead......that is in the scriptures!

 

[Ruht]

"Ruht, you didn't read my post very carefully or your perceptions not allowing you to understand what I tried to say! Saved from the grave....is a free gift....no keeping the commandments required.....no belief in Jesus Christ of His Father! No obedience....just being entitles us to the gift of the resurrection! Now if resurrection in your understanding is returning to the presence of the Father and Son immediately....I think not. Christ speaking in Corinthians, states something to this effect, "in my Father's house are many mansions, I now to prepare a place for you....and Paul further makes a comparative statement regarding the many degrees of glory that will be found in the heavens, comparing them to the Sun the Moon and the Stars.........in numerous places in the scripture it is mentioned, we will be judged by our works and rewarded accordingly.....this is after each of us stand before the judgement bar of God and judged by the Savior as we give an accounting of our life in mortality and then will we be rewarded accordingly! If our works or obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ are shown to be of diligence and filled with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice, then our reward will be accorded us in purportion to how well we have conquered and endured the trials and tribulations of this life!"

False. The judgment of our works will not be if we have obeyed written commandments or not, but if we have had faith or not. For truly good works only come from a true faith in Christ. They are done by love, without any fear of punishment or of losing something if they are not done; not done under duress and fear of punishment if they are not done. Such works as those are dead works, and they shall not endure.

"If we are rewarded with the presence of the Father, then we have been saved from our spiritual death suffered as a consequence of the transgressions in the Garden of Eden!"

We are in the presence of the Father when we are saved, for he lives in the hearts of all saved.

"We will have become clean from the blood and sins of this generation and our reward will be worthy of standing in Holy Places, in the presence of God, remembering the scriptures have stated repeatedly...."no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Hence the reason for the gospel being introduced by the Savior, that as we follow His teachings we can be made clean and pure through His atoning sacrifice as we have!"

Which makes us clean: Following his teachings, or his atoning sacrifice? for you offered two opposing things, works and grace.

"He taught faith, repentance and baptism and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost!

He taught faith in him; repentance from not having faith in him; and the new birth of the Holy Spirit from having faith in him.

"The Jesus Christ I know, and love made a great and ultimate sacrifice for our sins, contingent upon our faith and repentance and coming into harmony with His teachings.........."

It is only "contingent" upon us accepting his sacrifice, not on any of our own efforts.

This is where you stumble.

"lip service only is not defined in Holy writ.....as all we need to give to regain the presence of the Father and Son!"

Give what? SALVATION IS FREE!

"Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free from the ignorance that abounds in the christian world where fragments of truth and many false doctrines exist. Lip service is the easy way and the non committed way...."

My salvation is not contingent on my commitment to him, but on his commitment to me.

"the no sacrifice or obedience required route....I can't comprehend feeling that lip service is the ultimate way of showing our gratitude for the pain and suffering for sin, our Savior endured.

It may not seem right to you, but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things, and things which are despised hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are; That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of HIM are we in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, LET HIM GLORY IN THE LORD. (I Corinthians 1:27-31)

"Jesus invitation was, "Come Follow Me"...He set the example and led the way in baptism, the Beattitudes and the Ten Commandments! He came to give us life, and to give it to us more abundantly!! ....and the scriptures tell me so, as do the living prophets and apostles of the restoration of The Church of Jesus Christ on the earth today!"

When Christ said "follow me," he meant through the Spirit, not through the flesh:

"For as many as are LED by the SPIRIT OF GOD, they are the sons of God." - Romans 8:14

If someone is leading you, then you are obviously following them.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

"One last comment; Forgiveness comes by the grace of God after all we have tried to conquer and overcome in the repentance process!"

False! Forgiveness comes the moment we believe on Christ!

"Our faith will sustain us to that point of Grace, if we keep His commandments and follow His example! Faith without works is dead......that is in the scriptures!"

False! We do not earn grace!

And faith without works is indeed dead, however salvation without works is not. Therefore, tell me what works I must perform in order to prove my faith in the BLOOD OF CHRIST, not in works. I will show you my faith in the blood of Christ by being at rest, by not trying to work my way into heaven. You, on the other hand, will show me your faith in works, not in Christ, by you trying to work your way into heaven.

And thus, once again the Lord shall take the wise in their own craftiness.

God bless.

 

[Dualhunter]

All the thief on the cross did was put his trust in Christ alone to save him.

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
All the thief on the cross did was put his trust in Christ alone to save him.

Come now Dualhunter, everyone knows that Christ at that time could forgive a person by grace and faith alone, but that just isn't how it works anymore. We have to follow the theological rules now

 

[Frank]

Ruht:
There is more than one type of work in the Bible.
The works of the Law. Gal. 3:11.
There are works of merit. Eph. 2:8,9.
There are works of righteousness. Titus 3:5.
There are works of an obedient active faith. Romans 16:26, Hebrews 11:6. Men access the grace of God and the blood of Christ by an obedient active faith. Romans 5:1,2, Romans 6:3-5,17. Eph. 1:7, Hebrews 11:6, Rev.1:5, Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16.

Of course you do not understand these passages any more than you understand many others.
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he have faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Even gifts may be rejected. It takes faith to accept them. John 1:12. Romans 1;16,17.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Frank:
Ruht:
There is more than one type of work in the Bible.
The works of the Law. Gal. 3:11.
There are works of merit. Eph. 2:8,9.
There are works of righteousness. Titus 3:5.
There are works of an obedient active faith. Romans 16:26, Hebrews 11:6. Men access the grace of God and the blood of Christ by an obedient active faith. Romans 5:1,2, Romans 6:3-5,17. Eph. 1:7, Hebrews 11:6, Rev.1:5, Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16.

Of course you do not understand these passages any more than you understand many others.
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he have faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Even gifts may be rejected. It takes faith to accept them. John 1:12. Romans 1;16,17.

What you don't seem to realize is this:

"Moreover, I will give you a (1) new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the (2) heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. -Ezekiel 36:26 NASB

The Holy Spirit doesn't just sit around like a couch potatoe inside believers but is actively regenerating the heart of the believer.

Therefore if anyone is (1) in Christ, he is (2) a new creature; (3) the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB

If somebody really is already in Christ, they are a new creature, their heart has been changed and the Holy Spirit is living within the person. The resulting changed heart reveals whether there is truly genuine trust in Christ.

For (1) by grace you have been saved (2) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (3) the gift of God;
9 (4) not as a result of works, so that (5) no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, (6) created in (7) Christ Jesus for (8) good works, which God (9) prepared beforehand so that we would (10) walk in them.

Saved by grace through faith, not by works (no matter what kind of works you want to pretend that they are). We are created in Christ for good works, the good works play no part in creating us in Christ nor do they keep us in Christ but instead are done because if a person has truly put their trust entirely in the finished work Christ alone (as opposed to Christ plus their own works) the Holy Spirit of God is living in that person and has made them a new creature in Christ. Not a slightly better than before creature but a completely new creature in Christ.

So examine yourself, are you a new creature, has your heart been fundamentally changed?