What must one do to be saved???

The works of the law are works of merit.

Men access the grace of God by faith in Christ, and that's it.

Someday you will choke on those words, Frank, and possibly even weep and gnash your teeth.

His faith was justified, but not him. For he was justified long before Isaac was even born (Genesis 15:6)

It is a snare to a man who devoureth that which is holy, and after vows to make enquirey, Frank.

Yes, I see then. I see that a person's faith is proven by the action or "work" which follows that faith. Therefore I am able to see you have little or no faith in Christ, but lots of faith in works, Frank.

If you would like to see my faith in Christ, Frank, the work I do which proves it, then watch me at rest.

The Lord taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

God bless, Frank.

[ August 18, 2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Ruht ]

 

Ruht:
The Bible says what it says and means what it means and the a lord said what he meant. Yo do not like it but that is your problem. You are like most denominationalist. 1. You refuse to accept the totality of evidence on a subject.2. You try to array scripture against scripture instead of harmonizing them.3.You insert meanings to scripture that are not in harmony with the totality of the evidence.4. You attempt to build a straw man about someone who refutes your irrational appraoach to truth.5. If that does not work, you condemn someone who does not agree with you. You have hewn to your self a cistern a broken cistern that hold no water. Jer. 2: 13.
Go in Peace!

 

Dual:
The Word Saves. James 1:18,22.
The Word Purifies. John 15:1-3.
The Word is Powerful. Hebs. 4:12.
The Word Begats. I Cor. 4:15.
The Word is Truth. Jn.17:17.
The Word makes one a Disciple. John 8:31.
The Word Judges. John 12:48.
The Word is the Seed of the Kingdom. Luke 8:11-15.
The Word brings about the New Birth. I Pet. 1:23.
The Word brings Spiritual Growth, I Pet. 2:2.
Th Word Endures forever. I Pet. 2: 23-25
The Holy Spirit does not directly do any of the above. He uses the sword ( instrument) of the Spirit which is the WORD OF GOD. Eph. 6:17.

 

Drop the evasion Frank. You've got it backwards, you think it's works for salvation, as Ephesians 2 states, it is salvation for good works.

6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[3] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." - John 3:6-8 NASB

So examine yourself, are you a new creature, has your heart been fundamentally changed?

 

Dual:
No, the Bible does not teach meritorious works for salvation. Eph.2:8,9. I have not evaded anything. I simply posted scriptures for the WORD and SPIRIT. You do not like the rational conclusion one must make from them. If you disagree, book, chapter and verse please. Furhtermore, I have affirmed no such thing as you have stated. I believe the whole counsel of God on all mattters of faith. Acts 20:27.

 

Dual:
John 3:3-5 is indeed the Spiritual birth of man as opposed to the physical birth of woman. It is from Anothen or from above. That is not the question. The question is HOW? The How is by the word of God which is brought to man by the Holy Spirit.Eph.6:17,Hebrews 4:12.
Furthermore, the greek tense of the verb in verse 5 is ACTIVE. One must do something to be born again( Anothen). It is by water and spirit. Eph. 5:26 teaches us it is by the washing of water by the word.
You also assumne the spirit in these verses is the Holy Spirit. However, the original language does not so indicate. You have built your entire defense on assumption. The original language does not contain indefinite articles,nor capital letters. Morover, the language does not specify the Holy Spirit.
In John 3: 6-8, the source of the new birth in our lives to is not totally understood. We see the evidence in our lives of the change but the power and the limits of it to change us and mold us is not perfectly understood. It is as the writer says from Anothen.

 

When I said the following:

"Drop the evasion Frank. You've got it backwards, you think it's works for salvation, as Ephesians 2 states, it is salvation for good works."

I did not say anything about merit.

By the way, I forgot to post verse 27 of Ezekiel 36

26 "Moreover, I will give you a (1) new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the (2) heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will (3) put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. - Ezekiel 36:26-27 NASB

Your evasion is in reference to this:

"So examine yourself, are you a new creature, has your heart been fundamentally changed?"

God already knows, so you don't have to convince Him either way, whether or not you convince me is irrelevant, you are the one who must be certain of it. Know this, according to 2 Corinthians 5:17, if you are not a new creature, you are not in Christ.

 

Dual:
I have posted the scriptures as to what one must do to be saved. In order to be saved one must have faith formed by the word of God. Romans 10:17. He must believe. John 8:24. He must repent. Luke 13:3. he must be baptized. Acts 2:38. He must be faithful unto death Rev.2:10. This is a working faith. Jesus said it is not man's work but God's work we must do. John 6:28-30. The Bible teaches this type faith saves. Hebrews 11:6.We are his workmanship created In Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph.2:10. This is what the good book says.

 

Dual:
The question has been answered from the scriptures. Therefore, I have no doubt about being a new creature. One must be IN Christ to be a New Creature. HOW DOES ONE BECOME A NEW CREATURE? This is the fundamental question. HOW?
I have answered the how from the scriptures.

 

"You assume it means Holy Spirit" The word is "pneuma," rightly translated and captalized by the KJV translators as referring to the Holy Spirit. I think they had a bit more knowledge of the verse than you did.

In John 3:6-8 the source of our new birth is understood. It was not understood at that time to Nicodemus, and apparently is still is not understood by you.

A person who is born again has a new life from God. He is changed. Old things are passed away and all things are become new. He has become a new creature in Christ, born into God's family. How did he get there? Let me assure of one thing. Baptism had nothing to do with it; neither did any other work.
DHK

 

4 Now to the one who (4) works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but (5) believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, - Romans 4:4-5 NASB

Again, you have it backwards, we are saved by grace through faith, not by works but for works.

You claim to be a new creature because according to your flawed reasoning, scripture says you are. Scripture is consistent with reality simply because God is author of both. You seem unable to say that you are a new creature simply because you really are a new creature, that the old things are gone and the new have come. If God says that anybody who is in Christ is a new creation, you can bet that those in Christ are new creatures, not just that it says that they are but that they really are new creatures. You seem to be telling yourself that you were baptized and you try to be good so you must be a new creature, but I am telling you that Christ has completely changed my life, He has set me free from bondage to sin, the old has passed away and the new has come.

It's quite simple, just as simple as the testimony of the man born blind:

He then answered, "Whether He is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see." - John 9:25 NASB

Though I was a slave to sin, I am now set free. I was set free not when I was baptized nor when I did any other good work, but when I trusted in God alone who has justified me freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ. Prior to that I could try all I wanted to free myself from sin, but I couldn't, instead of the good I wanted to do, I did the evil that I did not want to do until I cried out to God to save me and through Christ He did.

19 For (35) the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (36) I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then (37) the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (38) the inner man,
23 but I see (39) a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (40) law of my mind and making me a prisoner of (41) the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (42) the body of this (43) death?
25 (44) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (45) the law of sin. - Romans 7:19-25 NASB

You keep trying to glue verse together in an attempt to add to the finished work of Christ on the cross. Trust in Christ, place your life in His hands.

8 But what does it say? "(11) THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that (12) if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (13) believe in your heart that (14) God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. - Romans 10:8-10 NASB

 

Dhk:
You said:
The King James translators are correct in translating pneuma as the Holy Spirit. That is pure UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSERTION. The Greek language does not use Capital letters nor indefinite articles.
You said:
Baptism has nothing to do with being a new creature. Again, UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSERTION. The bible says one must be born of water and spirit, John 3:3-5. It is by the washing of water by the word, Eph.5:26. This is what the Bible says. In baptism one puts his faith in God to cleanse him by the blood of Christ. Col. 2:12, Rev.1:5. This is what the Bible says. God's grace is extended in the blood of Christ. Eph.1:7. Men access the grace that saves by faith. Hebrews 11:6,Roms. 5:1,2, Eph.2:8,9;3:12. This is what the Bible says.

 

Dual:
You said:
You claim to be a new creature because according to your flawed reasoning, scripture says you are. Scripture is consistent with reality simply because God is author of both.
I said the scriptures tell us how one becopmes a new creature and based on them I was sure. I posted the evidence.
You said:.
If God says that anybody who is in Christ is a new creation, you can bet that those in Christ are new creatures, not just that it says that they are but that they really are new creatures. You seem to be telling yourself that you were baptized and you try to be good so you must be a new creature, but I am telling you that Christ has completely changed my life, He has set me free from bondage to sin, the old has passed away and the new has come.
I used the scriptures to prove my point. You use your emotions. Humm, who is flawed?
You said:
Though I was a slave to sin, I am now set free. I was set free not when I was baptized nor when I did any other good work, but when I trusted in God alone who has justified me freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ. Prior to that I could try all I wanted to free myself from sin, but I couldn't, instead of the good I wanted to do, I did the evil that I did not want to do until I cried out to God to save me and through Christ He did.
Romans 6:17-19 says it is through obedience to a form of doctrine that set us free. Peter said in I Pet. 3:21 baptism is a part of salvation or a form of the doctrine.

 

all of the dialogue put forth thus far by so many is interesting, but there is still no acknowledgment of what are we being save from!!! And the Garden of Eden is where it all began....the need for a Redeemer was created; the establishment of our free agency and essential part of God's plan for Hs children on earth! The law of sacrifice was instituted......and then came the fulfillment of the law of sacrifice, wherein faith, repentance and baptism became the new covenant the Lord made with His children, the Gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands to be a constant guide and companion in leading and keeping us in the way of truth! It is interesting how ruht, can twist the scripture to capture the essence of an easy way to heaven or being saved without capturing the truth of the Savior's words.....our works don't save us, but we are rewarded accordingly! And part of that reward for good works and keeping the commandments of the Lord, brings us closer into harmony with God and His spirit is able to strive with us in our actions and deeds.......again.....saved from the grave is a free gift because of the atoning sacrifice of the Savior for our sins....and all who exercise faith in Him, repent of their sins and come unto Him in humility will be rewarded with a mansion prepared by Him in the heavens above......we are not born into sin or with the sin of Adam on our heads.....that was conquered by the Savior in His Sacrifice for sin! But repentance is a requirement...to be sure....for no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.....and his forgiveness is ready at hand when we forsake our sins and lose the disposition to commit sin through our dedication and committment to Him and His gospel.......sweet is the peace and there is no need to defend or argue the words of the scriptures that are clearly defined! Yet, still there be many who wrest them and go so far to even deny them when then declare the heavens are sealed....there is no more revelation to living prophets and apostles on the earth today! There is! and the gospel and priesthood of God has been restored to the earth with all the attendant blessing promised to the children of men who desire to come unto to God! Priesthood being the authority to act and minister for God under His direction, just as it has been in generations of time past! So is it even today, a living prophet receives divine guidance for the world.....and how beautiful are the words of truth they speak!

 

I didn't say that the Greek used capital letters. I know it does not. But the KJV translators obviously knew more about the verse than you do, and translated it correctly. I would rather trust their scholarship in this matter than yours. It does indeed refer to the Holy Spirit and there is no reason for it not to refer to the Holy Spirit other than your own pre-conceived ideas which do not fit in with the rest of Scripture.

Baptism has nothing to do with salvation, or having a changed life. It is done after salvation in obedience to the command of Christ, and does nothing for you but get you wet. If you think it plays a part in salvation, and has some kind of meritorious work then you are very superstitious. The fact that you keep forcing your interpretation of "baptism" into John 3:5, shows your lack of understanding of the new birth, and the changed life that Dualhunter keeps referring to. One is not changed by baptism. Baptism cannot change a person, never has, and never will. H2O, two atoms of hydrogen to one atom of oxygen does no magic for the soul of a sinner.
DHK

 

DHK:
I had rather trust the Holy Spirit who deliverd the word in Greek than the King James translators.
The Bible sasy Baptism dothalsonow save us. IPet. 3:21. I think he has muchbetter credetnials than you on this onw also! Moroever,Paul said in Romasn 6:17-9 we are made free from sin when we obey the form of doctrine delivered. You and a million like you can say baptism does not save us ,but the Bible will still say that baptism doth also now save us. I Pet. 3:21. It will read that way tomorow when you read your Bible, and the next day, and on the day of Judgment. Mk. 16:16 John 12:48.
If you have the gift of the Holy Spirit why can't you say what Peter and Paul said. Is it a different spirit? Why don't you do what they did if you have what they have? Is that to much to ask from someone who says they have what the apostles had but he want do what they did?
If you were teaching the truth, which you are not, you could do exactly what they did and speak as they spoke. However, you can't do either one.

 

Frank, have you perfectly obeyed God?

 

1. I don't believe you are trusting the Holy Spirit for a heretical doctrine that goes against the rest of Scripture.
2. 1Pet.3:21 does not teach that baptism saves us. You conveniently quoted only part of the verse, and that out of context. It is aking to saying that the Bible says "There is no God," and it does! in Psalm 14:1. Perhaps you better look it up.
3. Rom.6:17-9 does not teach that we are free from sin. This is a heresy that John refutes in 1John:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
---Is the truth in you?
---Have you made Christ a liar?
DHK

 

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: he that doeth righteousness IS RIGHTEOUS, even as he is righteous. He that commiteth sin IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the son of man was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remaineth in him: AND HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God." - I John 3:5-9

The unrighteous self-righteous will tell you that I John 1:8 is referring to the saved, when no mention of the saved exists in that passage. However, when the saved are explicitly mentioned in I John 3:9, and they are explicitly stated as to not being able to commit sin, the unrighteous self-righteous cannot receive it, because they lack the faith in which to do so.

As I have pointed out in the past, but which was never answered by such types, if I John 1:8-10 is referring to the saved, and not the world in general, then how could the saved ever say that they have not sinned, as stated in I John 1:10, seeing how one only comes to Christ because one has admitted they are sinners in need of salvation?

There will be no answer to this, but only the continual repeat of I John 1:8, and the private interpretations of those who are unable to believe God, and thus try to put others under their unbelieving yoke.

The truth is that indeed the saved do not sin, even if they commit the same outward act that is imputed unto the unsaved as a sin, because sin is more than just the committing of an outward act, sin is the entire manifestation of intent, thought, and action. It takes all three of those to be done in a sinful way in order for something to be a sin; but the unlearned do not understand this.

The saved have not the sinful intents of the unsaved, and their hearts are forever born of the Holy Spirit, and that seed of the Holy Spirit will never leave the saved. They may commit the same outward act as the unsaved, on occasion, but it is not imputed unto them as a "sin," or at least as not a "sin unto death." They may be chastened by the Lord for such a thing, but they will not be judged, for there is no condemnation unto the saved.

The problem with many unlearned babes in Christ and others is that they just have not spent much time understanding what sin is in its entirety. They can easily believe the Bible when it mentions men are sinners, but they are not able to believe the same Bible when it says that the saved are not sinners. For, one requires faith, and the other only requires the ability to "see" the "obvious."

The saved are just that - saved - and they have the same heart they will have in heaven. And the saved do not sin in heaven, either.

The Bible says that if we were to sin after we were saved, that there would remain no more sacrifice for our sins, but only eternal damnation:

"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, THERE REMAINETH NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES." - Hebrews 10:26&27

Therefore the theology of the legalists is seriously flawed, yet they will ignore this and still harden their hearts and go stubbornly on their way into their self-righteousness.

Christ did it all. He gives us free eternal life just as God gave us free eternal life in the garden of Eden. There is no struggle to obtain it, there is only the struggle to believe it.

The self-righteous love their religiosity. They think they are "suffering for Jesus," hoping they will do enough to obtain eternal life. They think of themselves as teachers of the blind, trying to teach to others what they do not really do themselves. They do not interpret the Bible properly, because they interpret it through their own, natural understanding, not through the Spirit of the author who wrote it. And because of this they stumble; as God has hidden his interpretations from all men, until they believe.

When one believes without wavering, one will wait upon the sure foundation of grace for God's interpretation, and one will indeed be blessed in his/her deeds. However, while God blesses them, the children of the bondwoman will persecute them, thinking they are doing God a service.

Let the wind blow.

God bless.

[ August 24, 2002, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: Ruht ]

 

Hi DHK,

You wrote, "A person who is born again has a new life from God. He is changed. Old things are passed away and all things are become new. He has become a new creature in Christ, born into God's family. How did he get there? Let me assure of one thing. Baptism had nothing to do with it; neither did any other work."

"Born again" is one of two translations of the Greek "anothen" (a transliteration into English). The other translation is "From above". "Anothen" is a Greek word with a double meaning.

Nowhere in John 3 do we see a reference to "accepting Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior". Now, I do see a reference to being born from above by the Spirit, and this evokes the image of the Spirit descending from above at Jesus' baptism in the first chapter.

I also notice that the very next thing Jesus does after his discourse with Nicodemus is to join his disciples in a little fun activity that involves water.

God bless,

Carson

Justin Martyr, the earliest Christian apologist who was martyred for his Christian faith in the Roman colisseum, wrote in his First Apology for the defense of his fellow Christians to the emperor Titus in A.D. 151:

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we Christians teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'"