Did the Church replace the Jews as God's chosen people?

In Romans 9-11, Paul demonstrates that God has two distinct peoples, the Church and Israel. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance, meaning, He will not change His purpose for Israel (a kingdom on earth where the Davidic king will rule sovereignly over a submissive and worshipping people) or for the Church (the body of Christ and His bride who will rule along side the King.)

There is only one plan for God that involves these two distinct groups, with two distinct purposes, origins and destines. This is all Gods plan from the very beginning. The Lord chose Israel to be His chosen people. With the Great Commission, the Lord is ALLOWING the Gentile nations (us) to choose Him.

In Luke 13:35 Jesus says:…assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

…You shall not see me…God knew the Jews would reject His Son. Daniel 9:26 prophesied that Israel would fail to recognize Jesus. The Jews were expecting a different type of Messiah, than that of Jesus. The Jews IMO, weren’t about to idol worship a breathing living person, for the Jewish people have learned from the past what happens to them when it comes to idol worshipping. And the door was open for the Gentile Nations to receive the good news and to accept Christ as savior.

Israel, not the Church, has been called to go through the Tribulation period. Not to say that the Church will not be affected, they most certainly will and many will be saved, but the Church isn’t Gods focus at this time. The world’s last and most terrible war will devastate Israel, and Jerusalem will be captured and overrun one more time by heathen nations. The majority of the Jewish people will die during this time and those that survive will undergo great suffering. But Jesus, the true Messiah will return on schedule and all HIS righteous ones will receive their long awaited inheritance. (Hebrews 10:35-39)

Of course, it is impossible for the Jewish people to adhere to all the commandments, especially since the temple is destroyed. So were does this leave the Jews at this moment, since their eyes were shut? Has the Church replaced Gods chosen people? Would there have been a Church, if the Jews accepted Christ as the Messiah? Where would that have left the Gentiles? Was Jesus intended for both Israel and the Church? Some Jewish denominations believe that Jesus was the Gentile Messiah, but not the Jewish one. Could this be true? Are we to judge the Jewish people and condemn them to Hell, as some on this board has done? I say we should let God be the Judge of His people.

I would like your “final answer” to be other than John 14:6, since it was Gods will the Jewish peoples eyes be closed to the Messiah, not to say we shouldn’t witness to them, but that’s beside the point.

In Christ, Tommy

Tom --

This is an interesting read, from the point of view
of one who attends a synagogue with a number of
Jews who know the Messiah, which is connected
to other synagogues and shuls where they know
the Messiah. From this vantage point, many of the
statements Gentile believers make with regard to
Jews take on a whole interesting meaning, but not
the one the churches would like to think.

I know that churches teach that "the Jews rejected
Jesus" -- flat out, no explanations. This is so
erroneous. If they said, "Many of the Jews rejected
Jesus," this would be true, but a flat statement like
that above is not only untrue, it has also caused a
lot of pain to the Jews as a people. To say, "The
Jews murdered Jesus" is also an untrue statement
made by churches, and this has equally caused a
great deal of pain. It is just as bad and just as
ludicrous as the idea spread by certain ones
caling themselves "Christian" who claim that Jews
have horns, and that is why they wear yarmulkas.


Believe me, all the Jews' eyes are NOT shut. There
are 50 congregations in and around Jerusalem
alone which recognize Y'shua as the Messiah.
Congregations are arising in the West all the time,
full of Jews who have declared their faith in our
Messiah. More recently, numerous congregations
of South American Jews have arrisen, declaring
Him to be the Messiah. There are similar congrega-
tions all over the world.

Things are not as cut-and-dried as the churches
have taught and or as they would like to believe and
make the people believe.

No, the churches have not replaced Israel, for if
they have, our God is a liar.

I agree the church most certainly didn’t replace the Jews as God’s chosen people. The questions I posed rose from a discussion on a different topic, which suggested that Judaism worshipped a different God than Christianity, b/c they failed to recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

I should’ve been clearer in that not all Jews have rejected Christ. Now when I think of Judaism, I think of Orthodox Jews and the Reform movement and I maybe missing some others, but I’m not talking about Messianic Jews.

The Bible tells us simply that we’re all sinners, without exceptions. The Bible tells us how we got this way and that to see God and populate His kingdom this status must change. To the Jew, the keeping of the Law and sacrifices speak of this. To the Christian, Jesus is the one and only way. Out of some 2,300 Laws and commandments mentioned in the books of Numbers, Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy, a righteous Jew will be only able to keep 450 of these laws and commandments at best. They will need a temple, a high priest, a blood covenant and Jerusalem to keep the rest.

Is a modern Orthodox Jew (not to single them out) lost without Jesus? It was prophesied both the coming of the Messiah and Israel’s failure to recognize the Messiah. Has the modern Orthodox Jew who has been taught that Jesus was the Gentile Messiah doomed when he or she dies?

Does anyone even know what the Jews do now to get to heaven?


In Christ, Tommy

Abihah,

I agree with you. I did not know this piece of information.

Believe me, all the Jews' eyes are NOT shut. There
are 50 congregations in and around Jerusalem
alone which recognize Y'shua as the Messiah.
Congregations are arising in the West all the time,
full of Jews who have declared their faith in our
Messiah. More recently, numerous congregations
of South American Jews have arrisen, declaring
Him to be the Messiah. There are similar congrega-
tions all over the world.

Praise the Lord, that some Israelites are finding Jesus. That's great!

Originally posted by john6:63:
. . . I should've been clearer in that not all Jews have rejected Christ. Now when I think of Judaism, I think of Orthodox Jews and the Reform movement and I maybe missing some others, but I'm not talking about Messianic Jews.

Click to expand...

We have actually received word from Israel of
certain orthodox rabbis who also believe Y'shua
is the Messiah, after biblical and historical
research. There are others not using the title,
"Messianic," who are also believers.
There are many segments to Judaism, just as there
are to Christianity.

The Bible tells us simply that we're all sinners, without exceptions. The Bible tells us how we got this way and that to see God and populate His kingdom this status must change. To the Jew, the keeping of the Law and sacrifices speak of this. To the Christian, Jesus is the one and only way.

Click to expand...

To the believing Jew, Y'shua is also the one and
only way. Keeping Torah, to the believing Jew, is
icing on the cake -- Y'shua is the Cake.

Out of some 2,300 Laws and commandments mentioned in the books of Numbers, Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy, a righteous Jew will be only able to keep 450 of these laws and commandments at best. They will need a temple, a high priest, a blood covenant and Jerusalem to keep the rest.

Click to expand...

Most Jews only count 613 laws; anything more are
those added to what Torah says.

Is a modern Orthodox Jew (not to single them out) lost without Jesus? It was prophesied both the coming of the Messiah and Israel's failure to recognize the Messiah. Has the modern Orthodox Jew who has been taught that Jesus was the Gentile Messiah doomed when he or she dies?

Click to expand...

All people, Jewish or not, are lost without Y'shua.
Period.

Does anyone even know what the Jews do now to get to heaven?

In Christ, Tommy

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When a Jew speaks of "the world to come," that
person is not indicating what Christians call
"heaven." We have a completely different
perspective on the afterlife of the just. Bluntly,
I do not want to go into it here, because this is
the Baptist Board, and I am a guest here.

Regardless, as far as Apostolic Judaism teaches,
there is one way to be saved, and mitzvot cannot
save us. The blood of bulls and goats cannot save
us. Only the shed blood of Y'shua ha Moshiach
can save us.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Abihah,

I agree with you. I did not know this piece of information.

Believe me, all the Jews' eyes are NOT shut. There
are 50 congregations in and around Jerusalem
alone which recognize Y'shua as the Messiah.
Congregations are arising in the West all the time,
full of Jews who have declared their faith in our
Messiah. More recently, numerous congregations
of South American Jews have arrisen, declaring
Him to be the Messiah. There are similar congrega-
tions all over the world.

Praise the Lord, that some Israelites are finding Jesus. That's great!

Click to expand...

We have been visited by some of the leaders of the
congregations around Jerusalem. It is amazing to
hear of their ministries, the things they go through,
the persecution, and that some of their faces have
been on "Wanted" posters for their work with
Jewish believers and evangelism.

We were also visited by one of the Temple
cohenim, not a believer, who brought photos of
Temple preparation as well as brought us Temple
coinage and other items. Things are happening
there so fast that it is amazing -- things we read
in the Bible, yet it seemed so far out-there.
Amazing stuff.

What sayeth the Scriptures?

Mt 21:33 ¶ Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Ccatholic --

If you are, by using this Scripture, trying to say
that the Jews all rejected the truth of the Bible,
please say it clearly. And if you do, you are
wrong. To many times, Scriptures are used
to portray a partial truth, and such use of this
Scripture is just that.

I am curious: what is the reason for the archaic
English? This is not crticism -- I was just
surprised and just wondered why it was used.

I am curious: what is the reason for the archaic
English?

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If Old English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for all of us.

Paul says in 1 Thess 2 that the Jews were continually filling up the measure of their cup of iniquity.

Christ said in Matt 23 that the curse of Solomon was upon them. "Behold your house is left to you desolate".

Paul said in Romans 11 that they were "removed from the vine due to unbelief". He also said in Romans 11 that God was "able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unblief".

This is so clear - it is impossible to miss. They were ONCE IN - and NOW are cast out. The only way BACK in is through "belief" - rebellion aint it.

Paul was a Jew and was trying to move other jews to jealousy to get them to come back to the Messiah that they were rejecting.

The ENTIRE Jewish system is based on the Messiah. To reject HIM is to reject Judaism. There is NO "Messiah-less plan" of God for the Jews - and never has been.

They are confronted with the same challenge as everyone else - Messiah or lake-of-fire. There is no "blessed lake of fire". There is no "holy and chosed to burn in the lake of fire so Gentiles can be saved". All those silly notions - are without Bible support.

There is only "ONE" problem. The fall of mankind - the sin problem. And there is ONLY ONE solution "God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE His only Son".

The point of the OT One True Hebrew Nation Church - was "EVANGELISM" - that ALONE was their purpose. When they were "broken off" Rom 11 - then the NT church was given that SAME commission but without the benefit of the NATION church calling. It is a "fallback" plan.

The solution God gave in the Hebrew nation church was a BETTER one - than given in the NT to the disbursed persecuted church. We have not national promise of prosperity and protection as a church today - as they did before they were "cast out" Romans 11.

Their failure is a true tragedy that will not be recovered until the 2nd coming.

Just as Adam's failure is ALSO a true tragedy that will not be recovered until then.

Failure is never God's "plan for success".

God has never said to any person or people group "Please choose hell so I can save the world" or "Please choose to reject the Messiah so I can save mankind".

In Christ,

Bob

The reason for the Olde English is that it is cut and paste from my Swordsearcher program which uses KJV.

I find it interesting that the scriptures I quoted are not discussed and an attempt to refute them is not made. Jesus was pretty clear on the issue. The vineyard is the kingdom and the husbandmen are the Jews. They kill the Son (does God have to use crayons and paper, or do you get it yet?) and they, in turn, are DESTROYED (in AD 70 when the Romans leveled Jerusalem and the Temple) and removed from their caretakership of the kingdom. In their place, "another nation" is placed, which is the Church.

There is NO INDICATION, EVIDENCE, OR DIRECT WORDING which suggests that after the so called "rapture" of the "church" takes place, the Jews will be given back kingdom status. The parable ends with them having been destroyed and no evidence of their being raised from the dead in that parable.

The Jews are replaced. Case closed.

The problem, as always, comes from lazy exegesis and a lack of thought on this issue. "Israel" is the name for God's people. Jew is an ethnic identity. A Jew may be part of Israel, or he may not, according to St. Paul, who said "for they are not all Israel who are of Israel"

Now unless you see the separation between ethnic Israel at that time, i.e., the Jews, and Israel as the "people of God" regardless of race, that statement is ludicrous, for if to be a Jew is to be an Israelite, then all Jews MUST be of Israel. But St. Paul's point in the context of that verse is that being part of Israel is a matter of

FAITH IN GOD

NOT national identity.

And this is precisely what the Evangelicals miss today in their head over heels rush to support the nation over there in the middle East. They are missing the bigger picture, which is that all believers are "children of Abraham" regardless of their nationality.

I have been ill, so I don't wish to answer your note
tonight. I wll just say that I disagree with what
you have written. I hope to muster up the energy to
answer you tomorrow.

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Jesus was pretty clear on the issue. The vineyard is the kingdom and the husbandmen are the Jews. They kill the Son (does God have to use crayons and paper, or do you get it yet?) and they, in turn, are DESTROYED (in AD 70 when the Romans leveled Jerusalem and the Temple) and removed from their caretakership of the kingdom. In their place, "another nation" is placed, which is the Church.

There is NO INDICATION, EVIDENCE, OR DIRECT WORDING which suggests that after the so called "rapture" of the "church" takes place, the Jews will be given back kingdom status. The parable ends with them having been destroyed and no evidence of their being raised from the dead in that parable.

The Jews are replaced. Case closed.

Click to expand...

Jesus was telling a parable, a small illustration of one point. He was not giving a long story book reading. It was a parable, Ed. It has an ending. It wasn't meant to give the full scope and sequence of the entire tribulation period, explaining Daniel's seventy weeks, and then the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials. It was a simple parable meant to teach a simple truth. You read too much into it.
1. The Jews rejected the prophets.
2. The Jews rejected the Son (the Messiah)
3. The Jews were consequently punished (the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.)
End of story.

Nowhere in the Bible is it taught that the Church replaces the nation of Israel. If that is true than God is not faithful, and He is found to be a liar. For He promised to both Abraham and to David that He would preserve their seed FOREVER. For David's sake a remnant would be saved. Over and over again in Scripture we find that statement. Paul plainly states it in Romans 11:26 referring to the remnant that will be alive at the Second Coming: "And so all Israel shall be saved." Israel is not replaced. She has been blinded as Romans 11 tells us; set on a shelf for a temporary period of time, but in no way has it been replaced.

To assert that Israel has been replaced by the "Church" is as ridiculous as to say that Islam will soon replace "Christianity," (which it believes it will).
DHK

I would like those who do not see the Jews as being taken out - fallen away "due to unbelief" -- to take the text of Romans 11 and "show" how they "stay in".

It seems to be the goal of "some" to present the Jews as "the chosen lost people of hell" - as "if" God has them in a "special zone of the lost" and in addition to wanting to "Save mankind" He also wants a certain group of the lost to "feel special".

I don't think God was ever playing such a game in all of time. According to Romans 11 He only ever wanted one thing for them - salvation. Period.

Now "if" you were arguing for a "SAVED Christian Israel" that was ALSO prosperious as a nation - THEN I could see some Biblical support for your views. But the messiah-rejecting-special-lost-nation is not "special" in any sense that the Bible speaks of - and certainly we would not want them to defocus off of the one and only issue - salvation itself.

Remember John 3:16 was spoken BEFORE the Cross - to a Jew, by a Jew.

In Christ,

Bob

CHAPTER 17 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram,
and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

This everlasting covenant referred to, is the everlasting covenant promised by God to Abraham, and all his seed. This promised covenant was established by the Lord Jesus Christ, who was himself of the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of
Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a
merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

It is Christ who established the everlasting covenant promised by God through Abraham and his seed. It was Christ who made Abraham a father of many nations, ( Gen 17:4 ), when He established the promises of the old covenant and by so doing brought about the new. Opening up the blessing that were given to Israel to all mankind. Israel has not lost it's status as the chosen people of God, this special blessing has been opened up to all of humanity through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one that all of the old covenant Jewish sacrifices and offerings pointed to. Now all who accept Him as their personal Savior are heirs of the kingdom and the very seed of Abraham. This was God's plan from the beginning.

Gen 18:18 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Gen 22:17-18 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 26:4 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

These promises clearly point to the that which was established by the Lord Jesus Christ. Now all both Jew and Gentile are invited to be the children of Abraham by the acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. However, all those who will not accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior, both Jew and Gentile are all those of the flesh. Those who are of the flesh, will not inherit the
kingdom of God.

John 3:3-6 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be
born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now concerning literal nations during the old covenant, and God's promises to them, here is what the scriptures say.

Jer 18:5-11 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I
would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

The nation of Israel rejected and killed, for the most part, the prophets that were sent to her. They then finally rejected and killed the Lord Himself, the son of God. This Christ clearly points out in his parable of the vineyard ( Matt 21:33-46 ). Because of their rejection of Christ, the literal nation of Israel lost the promises of God fulfilled in Christ. However, the spiritual Jews, the remnant of the nation of Israel accepted the Lord Jesus Christ and inherited the promises of God to Israel. This, as Christ had bade them to, they shared with all humanity, as God had planned to do all along. The real Jews, those who worshipped God in spirit, and truth, not just in the flesh, never lost any of the blessings promised to Abraham. All the first followers of Christ, who eventually began to be called Christians, were Jews. These Jews carried out the will of God promised to Abraham from the
beginning, that all nations would be blessed through his seed. Instead of losing God's promises and blessings, they retained them by following His will and sharing them with all of humanity. They did not regard the blessings of God as something to be kept by only a privileged race, but as something to be shared with all, as all true worshippers of the Lord do.


Gal 3:6-9 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Rom 4:9-16 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in
circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not
circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Your brother in Christ, Keith

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

This everlasting covenant referred to, is the everlasting covenant promised by God to Abraham, and all his seed.

No argument here. You are right on the money in this regard. This promised covenant was established by the Lord Jesus Christ, who was himself of the seed of Abraham.

The nation of Israel rejected and killed, for the most part, the prophets that were sent to her. They then finally rejected and killed the Lord Himself, the son of God. This Christ clearly points out in his parable of the vineyard ( Matt 21:33-46 ).

Indeed. The very same parable in which Christ Jesus tells the Jews that they are to be forever cast out of the vineyard as His administrators, and replaced by the Church. But you have a slight mistake in your above statement. It was the J*E*W*S who killed Jesus the Christ, not Israel. Israel is the people of God, not an ethnic race. More on this later.

Because of their rejection of Christ, the literal nation of Israel lost the promises of God fulfilled in Christ. However, the spiritual Jews, the remnant of the nation of Israel accepted the Lord Jesus Christ and inherited the promises of God to Israel. This, as Christ had bade them to, they shared with all humanity, as God had planned to do all along. The real Jews, those who worshipped God in spirit, and truth, not just in the flesh, never lost any of the blessings promised to Abraham.

Excellent point, grasshoppa!!! Being an "Israelite" is a matter of faith, not of ethnic identity. St. Paul says so in this verse:

Ro 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The only way to understand that strange verse is when you understand that spiritual Israel is the true Israel, while the physical Israel at that time -- the JEWS -- were not all of the true Israel.


Gal 3:6-9 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Oh man, you even did my work for me. There it is in all its glory. "THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH" are the children of Abraham. That completely excludes nationality and ethnicity.

The Church, that institution of faith, is the new Israel of God. (Gal. 6:16). Therefore, it is the Church which now has replaced Israel, for the Church is that divinely established institution of faith in Christ.

Brother Ed

While it is true that many of the
Jews rejected and crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, He himself said, " Father forgive them for they no not what they do", ( Lk 23:34 ). I accept personal responsibility for the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, it was my sins that nailed Him to the cross. Those who wish to blame the Lord's crucifixion on the Jews, do not understand the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. If certain of the Jews had not brought Christ's crucifixion about, then it would have happened through some other means. The fact is that we all crucified Christ, and this was His will, that we might see ourselves for what we truly are, and repent.

CHAPTER 53 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD
hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to
the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

John 11:47-53 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

Christ came into the world to die for sinners. At the hand of sinners, and for sinners. It was for this purpose that he came into the world. Regardless of who literaly killed Jesus, in reality, we all literaly killed our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.

Praise God through His Son Jesus Christ. Through whom He has purposed to forgive all of humanity in, and by, the death of His only begotten Son.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

Originally posted by Abiyah:
Tom --

This is an interesting read, from the point of view
of one who attends a synagogue with a number of
Jews who know the Messiah, which is connected
to other synagogues and shuls where they know
the Messiah. From this vantage point, many of the
statements Gentile believers make with regard to
Jews take on a whole interesting meaning, but not
the one the churches would like to think.


I know that churches teach that "the Jews rejected
Jesus" -- flat out, no explanations. This is so
erroneous. If they said, "Many of the Jews rejected
Jesus," this would be true, but a flat statement like
that above is not only untrue, it has also caused a
lot of pain to the Jews as a people. To say, "The
Jews murdered Jesus" is also an untrue statement
made by churches, and this has equally caused a
great deal of pain. It is just as bad and just as
ludicrous as the idea spread by certain ones
caling themselves "Christian" who claim that Jews
have horns, and that is why they wear yarmulkas.


Believe me, all the Jews' eyes are NOT shut. There
are 50 congregations in and around Jerusalem
alone which recognize Y'shua as the Messiah.
Congregations are arising in the West all the time,
full of Jews who have declared their faith in our
Messiah. More recently, numerous congregations
of South American Jews have arrisen, declaring
Him to be the Messiah. There are similar congrega-
tions all over the world.

Things are not as cut-and-dried as the churches
have taught and or as they would like to believe and
make the people believe.

No, the churches have not replaced Israel, for if
they have, our God is a liar.

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I agree. If all the Jews had rejected Jesus we would not have most of the NT.

I know a man who pastors a Messianic congregation. I am challenged by their faith and dedication to the furtherance of the gospel. They are absoultely serious about their faith. Many of them have paid quite a price for their new found faith in Jesus.

Isn't that the difference that James talks about? It is not about a creedal faith but a living breathing faith in the living God who changes lives for time and eternity. It is a genuine faith written in the hearts of men and women and not just on a page or a document.

Thanks for sharing.

Matthew 21:
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

The above is the passage, at least most of it, that is so often referred to. Notice in verse 41, it is the disciples that say the husbandman will destroy those wicked men—not Jesus! Jesus never indicated in this parable that the Jews or the nation of Israel would be forever destroyed. He never intimated or even remotely suggested that the nation of Israel would be forever replaced by another people or nation. He did say:
“Therefore …The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. “
But He didn’t say that this would be forever.

The very same parable in which Christ Jesus tells the Jews that they are to be forever cast out of the vineyard as His administrators, and replaced by the Church. But you have a slight mistake in your above statement. It was the J*E*W*S who killed Jesus the Christ, not Israel. Israel is the people of God, not an ethnic race. More on this later.

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Again, the parable nowhere says that neither the Jews nor Israel will be cast out of the vineyard forever.

From the Webster’s Dictionary:
Jew: n. A member of the worldwide Semitic group who claim descent from Abraham and whose religion is Judaism; a descendant of Jacob, an Israelite; a member of the Hebrew tribe of Judah; an inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.

Israel (Bible) Jacob; the twelve tribes descended from Jacob’s sons Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Napthali, and Benjamin, and from Joseph’s sons Ephraim and Manasseh. The 13th tribe of Levi was granted no land; (hist.) an ancient kingdom established by 10 Hebrew tribes in the north of Palestine. (c. 932-722 B.C.); the Jews.

It is clear. An Israelite is a Jew. A Jew is an Israelite. The two are inseparable. Your false distinction between the two is completely unnecessary.

Being an "Israelite" is a matter of faith, not of ethnic identity. St. Paul says so in this verse:

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This is a very inflammatory statement which can only lead to the anti-semitism of Hitler and Islam.
One can only conclude that since the Jews or Israel rejected the Messiah, and to this day reject the Messiah, have no right to exist. As the Muslims conclude ((and as Hitler did as well), they are all infidels, unbelievers, and thus should be exterminated. Drive them into the sea. Wipe them off the face of the sea. They don’t exist any longer, nor do they have the right to. For the church has replaced them. (Is this what you believe??)
As we have seen Ed, a Jew is an Israelite, and an Israelite is a Jew. At one time the term Israelites was more encompassing than the word Jew, but eventually the two words became synonymous. At one time Israel referred to all twelve tribes. Later, after the split, the ten northern tribes was referred to as Israel, and the two southern tribes (Judah and Benjamin) were referred to as Judah. The word Jew became a nickname borrowed from Judah. Thus, no matter which way you look at it, a Jew would always be an Israelite. Only in a very technical sense would a Levite or someone from the 10 northern tribes not be considered a Jew (literally from Judah). But in reality that was not so. For the two names (Israelite and Jew) over time became synonymous.

Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel

Paul is looking back on the nation of Israel and simply saying that not all of the Israelites within the nation were actually believers. There were some, as evidenced in the Book of Judges, that followed after Baal and other gods. Not everyone was true to Jehovah.
Not everyone under the umbrella of Christendom is Christian. Not everyone that calls himself a Christian is one. That is all that Paul is saying. You are reading too much into this verse.

Oh man, you even did my work for me. There it is in all its glory. "THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH" are the children of Abraham. That completely excludes nationality and ethnicity.
The Church, that institution of faith, is the new Israel of God. (Gal. 6:16). Therefore, it is the Church which now has replaced Israel, for the Church is that divinely established institution of faith in Christ.

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“…are of the children of Abraham” Paul speaks in a symbolic way here. He does not say that anyone that believes is a Jew or an Israelite. Paul reserves the right to use symbolism. John refers to believers as “sons of God” in John 1:12, but does not mean that we are all Christ. There are not many Christs running around on the earth. There is only one Son of God. There is only one nation of Israel. There is only one kind of Jew—the Israelite (whether he be a believer or not)
The church is not the new Israel. That is just not taught here. If it is, Ed, please tell me what tribe are you from?

Rev.1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
--When Christ comes who is going to be there? “They also which pierced him.” The nation of Israel, not the church will be there when Christ comes again.

What will happen when Christ comes again?
Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The covenant is made with Israel; not with the church. Israel will be saved at the coming of Christ; not the church. Israel still exists as a nation. God has left a remnant as He promised. He never promised to replace them (heresy). He promised to preserve them!
DHK

THe "children of the PROMISE" are regarded as "descendants" in the promise made to Abraham NOT the children "of the flesh" Rom 9:8.

It could not BE any simpler.

So when we speak of "God promising" to preserve them - the conclusion is obvious - if we stick with scripture over man's tradition.

In Christ,

Bob