Did the Church replace the Jews as God's chosen people?

[Heart Talker]

Hello...
I would like to share (again) that I am really enjoying the "pros an cons" regarding Israel and the church. I used the word Israel because there are those who contend that Abraham was not a Jew. And therfore, all Israelites are not Jews and all Jews are not Israelites. I'm sure everyone is familiar that many insist (all) Israelites were descendants of Abraham, but the term Jew was a religion, which included portions of God's laws/commandmants plus what certain uninspired(?) men added...and eventually became what is know as the Talmud. Please note: I didn't say that I believe "this", but that it is the contention of some ( probably one could say, "Many"). My reason for sharing "this": As I review various postings, it appears to me that perhaps ( in many cases ) what is said may be correct. However, because we all agree(?) that both, the Old Testament dispensation and the New Testament dispensation, have a literal "side" and also a spiritual "side". And we all agree(?) that value can be place upon both "literal" and "spiritual". And further, that "spiritual" is valued "greater" than "literal"(?) Anyway, when one member is reading the post of another member, it appears to be quite easy for the reviewer to interpret as literal what the poster meant as spiritual and visa versa and even a mixture of literal and spiritual.

Now, it is not my intention to be confusing---I'm trying to speak clearly. Everyone agrees that literal Israelites exist in this New Testament dispensation just as surely as in the Old Testament dispensation.(?) But do we also agree that spiritual Israelites also existed in the Old Testament dispensation, just as surely as they exist in the New Testament dispensation?

Okay, if we're ever going to see "eye to eye" or even "head in that direction", surely we must, when "writing literal"--- "read literal" and when "writing spiritual"---"read spiritual". I personally feel that much of our difficulty in agreement has to do with writing and reading a mixture of "literal and spiritual".

Well, thanks for considering...

 

[Kamoroso]

Hello again DHK.

I’m sorry that you think that I am anti-Semitic. I do not hate the Jews. I just don’t agree with you concerning their status, as the chosen people of God, this side of the new covenant. If you look up the word anti-semitic in the dictionary, you wont find the definition,— anyone who doesn’t agree with DHK about the Jews being Gods chosen people, above all others, in the new covenant era. I do not hate the Jews, or anyone. I do not have the right to do so, as a Christian. My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ loved, and died for everyone on earth. Giving all an infinite value.

My friend, I would like to take a look at the verses you quoted to prove the special status of the Jews in the new covenant, in their proper context. As a matter of fact, the verses you used, when read in context, say exactly the opposite of what you have attempted to make them say, to support your belief. Lets take a look, shall we.


Rom 2:28-3:8 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

CHAPTER 3

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The above verses do point out the advantage that the Jews have, or had. That is the oracles of God, or scriptures if you will. However, the entire context of what is being said in the verses surrounding those scriptures which you chose to prove your point, is exactly the opposite of your point. That is to say, that we are all in the same boat. That there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, this side of Christ. Christ laid down His life for all, and because of that, we have all been chosen by God unto justification of life. We can all obtain the promises of God to his people by faith in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. We can all be members of the kingdom of God, the very seed of Abraham.

Be careful of your jealousy for the Jews my friend. This same kind of jealousy among the Jews of Christ’s day, lead the most of them to reject and crucify the Lord of glory. When Christ did not bring the Jews the exaltation, and special status in the world that they expected from the Messiah, most of them rejected him. They did not pay attention to the prophecies which told of the Messiahs death, and sufferings. Or His purpose of delivering humanity from sin. It was because of pride, that they looked only for a Messiah that would deliver them from the Romans, and establish them as the number one kingdom in the world again. Therefore, they were deceived into crucifying their own Savior, because he did not fulfill their own selfish desires for exaltation.

So likewise today, many Christians believe that they will be exalted in the world, and removed from this earth before the great tribulation that the bible predicts. Though these same Christians say they believe the Jews to be God’s exalted, and chosen people, they really believe themselves to be more so. Since by their special status, they are removed from this earth during this tribulation, while the Jews, and all others must stay and prove themselves under very harsh conditions. Just as most of the Jews of Christ’s day would not accept that the Messiah would have to suffer and die, so these Christians do not believe that they will have to suffer, or die for what they believe. They believe themselves to be privileged above all of God’s other children of all ages who have proved their faith through suffering, and persecution.

This they believe, even though their Lord and Savior has told them otherwise.

John 15:20-21 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

This deception about the Messiah’s second coming is much more dangerous than the first deception was. It gives people the false sense of security, that they will have a second chance to accept Christ, when in reality they will not.

2 Cor 6:1-2 1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Forgive me for rambling. Let us return to the matter at hand, before I get to side tracked. Let us examine the next scripture you used to support your belief, in it’s proper context.

John 4:21-24 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You pointed out my friend, that Christ said that salvation is of the Jews. This was and is certainly true. Before Christ came, the Jews were committed with the privilege of maintaining a knowledge of God, and his mercy, in this world. Which they did a miserable job of, by the way. Not that any other human beings could have done any better, thus the Son of God became the son of man. That’s another topic altogether though. Christ himself was a Jew also of course, and thus salvation was, and is, of the Jews. This much we agree on. However, just who the Israelites are today, that are maintaining this knowledge of God in the world, is where we have our disagreement. It is the spiritual Israelites of today, that are maintaining a knowledge of God in this world by preaching the gospel of the kingdom. These are those who worship the Father in spirit, and truth, as the above scriptures state. That is the scriptures which you have wrested from the intended meaning.

Christ was speaking to a Samaritan women when he said these words. The Samaritans were hated by the Jews. Never the less, Christ was telling her, even a Samaritan, that the time was coming, and even now was, that God was seeking those who would worship him in spirit, and in truth. That is to say, that the time was coming and now was, that it would not matter what race, or nation you were from, as long as you worshiped God in spirit, and in truth. Those who are of the spirit are spirit, and those who are the flesh, are flesh.

John 3:5-6 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Those who are the spirit, regardless of race, or nationality, are those who are maintaining a knowledge of God in the world today. They are spiritual Israel, and the chosen of God, because they themselves have chosen God through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. They that are of the flesh, are flesh, regardless of race, or nationality. They cannot be God’s chosen people to maintain a knowledge of him in the world, because they cannot know the things of God which are revealed through the spirit of God. This of course includes all Jews who have not accepted Christ, as well as all others in this same condition.

Rom 8:5-17 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

These are those who testify of God, and are the Israel of God. Those who are born again of every nation and tongue, and people. This is the new and superior covenant which God has made with His people.

Gal 6:14-16 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Praise God that the promises and blessings which God had pronounced upon the children of Israel during the old covenant, have been opened up to all of humanity in and through the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified. Which was his purpose in Christ from the beginning, even the salvation of the entire world. Christ died for each and every individual, choosing them for His very own, if they would just care to accept it. Oh the love and mercy of our awesome God. May His people finish the work in this world by the power of His Spirit that we might go home to be with Him ever more.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kamoroso:
Hello again DHK.

I’m sorry that you think that I am anti-Semitic. I do not hate the Jews. I just don’t agree with you concerning their status, as the chosen people of God, this side of the new covenant. If you look up the word anti-semitic in the dictionary, you wont find the definition,— anyone who doesn’t agree with DHK about the Jews being Gods chosen people, above all others, in the new covenant era. I do not hate the Jews, or anyone. I do not have the right to do so, as a Christian. My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ loved, and died for everyone on earth. Giving all an infinite value.

If you are truly not anti-semitic, then I apologize for saying so. But the theology that you espouse, Replacement Theology, is an anti-semitic theology, and is a cause for antisemitism. Thus, my conclusion for anti-semitism.

The above verses do point out the advantage that the Jews have, or had. That is the oracles of God, or scriptures if you will. However, the entire context of what is being said in the verses surrounding those scriptures which you chose to prove your point, is exactly the opposite of your point. That is to say, that we are all in the same boat. That there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, this side of Christ. Christ laid down His life for all, and because of that, we have all been chosen by God unto justification of life. We can all obtain the promises of God to his people by faith in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. We can all be members of the kingdom of God, the very seed of Abraham.

"Christ laid down his life for all, and because of that, we have all been chosen by God unto justification of all." That is only true if we come to Christ as a sinner and accept his sacrifice for our sins by faith.
We see in the Book of Acts that both
Paul, after the cross for 35 years (until his death) went to the Jew first and also to the Greek. He continued to witness to the Jewish nation, as well as to the Gentiles. Obviously the church had not replaced Israel, as Paul continued to take the gospel to them well after the death of Christ. Some of the first people that he met in Rome before the end of his life were Jews. His continual prayer was:

Romans 9:1-5
9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

And again:
Rom.10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Paul's prayer for Israel, his kinsman, the Jewish nation, was that they would be saved. If the Jews had been replaced by the church, Paul's prayer would have been redundant. It would not even make sense. He would be praying for a nation that did not exist and could not exist, because according to you it had been replaced by Christianity. This is utter nonsense. I think Paul knew better than the advocates of Replacement Theology.

Be careful of your jealousy for the Jews my friend. This same kind of jealousy among the Jews of Christ’s day, lead the most of them to reject and crucify the Lord of glory. When Christ did not bring the Jews the exaltation, and special status in the world that they expected from the Messiah, most of them rejected him. They did not pay attention to the prophecies which told of the Messiahs death, and sufferings. Or His purpose of delivering humanity from sin. It was because of pride, that they looked only for a Messiah that would deliver them from the Romans, and establish them as the number one kingdom in the world again. Therefore, they were deceived into crucifying their own Savior, because he did not fulfill their own selfish desires for exaltation.

The Jews that rejected Christ as their Messiah, that crucified Him, were unsaved. Jews that reject Christ as their Saviour today are unsaved. Gentiles, whether in the Apostle's day or in our day, that reject Christ as Saviour are unsaved. Those that are saved are those that trust Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. They are called Christians, believers in Christ--not Jews, not even spiritual Jews. We are believers in Christ, Christians, which means followers of Christ. Are you a follower of Christ or of Jacob (an Israelite)?
The promise that will establish the nation of Israel as a Kingdom with Christ as their King is yet to be fulfilled, and as Paul says in Rom.11:26, "So all Israel shall be saved." Christ shall rule for a thousand years on earth. The apple of His eye will be the nation of Israel.

So likewise today, many Christians believe that they will be exalted in the world, and removed from this earth before the great tribulation that the bible predicts.

That is what the Bible teaches. (not exalted; just raptured out of this world).

Though these same Christians say they believe the Jews to be God’s exalted, and chosen people, they really believe themselves to be more so. Since by their special status, they are removed from this earth during this tribulation, while the Jews, and all others must stay and prove themselves under very harsh conditions. Just as most of the Jews of Christ’s day would not accept that the Messiah would have to suffer and die, so these Christians do not believe that they will have to suffer, or die for what they believe. They believe themselves to be privileged above all of God’s other children of all ages who have proved their faith through suffering, and persecution.

In this day of grace God is calling out a nation unto himself. Those who trust Christ as Saviour are not "appointed unto wrath," as the Bible says, but will be raptured before the Tribulation comes.

You pointed out my friend, that Christ said that salvation is of the Jews. This was and is certainly true. Before Christ came, the Jews were committed with the privilege of maintaining a knowledge of God, and his mercy, in this world. Which they did a miserable job of, by the way. Not that any other human beings could have done any better, thus the Son of God became the son of man. That’s another topic altogether though. Christ himself was a Jew also of course, and thus salvation was, and is, of the Jews. This much we agree on. However, just who the Israelites are today, that are maintaining this knowledge of God in the world, is where we have our disagreement. It is the spiritual Israelites of today, that are maintaining a knowledge of God in this world by preaching the gospel of the kingdom. These are those who worship the Father in spirit, and truth, as the above scriptures state. That is the scriptures which you have wrested from the intended meaning.

You don't understand metaphors and figures of speech do you? Who are the spiritual Muslims of today? Are they also the Christians. Who are the spiritual Hindus of the day? Are they also the Christians? Does any and everything that is "spiritual" come under the category of "Christian"?

1Cor.10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
--Paul defines three categories of people in the Bible: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Church of God. There are these three and only these three. They existed at the time of Paul and they exist today. When a Jew becomes saved he becomes a Christian, just like Paul or Peter did. When a Gentile becomes saved he becomes a Christian just like Cornelius did. The only way that the Jewish nation would cease to exist is if ALL the Jews, 100% of them got saved. Then they would all be Christians. Just as their are Christians among many nations, and many nations still survive, so there are some Jews that get saved and the Jewish nations still survives. Christianity in no way replaces the Jewish nation. To claim as much is heresy.

Christ was speaking to a Samaritan women when he said these words. The Samaritans were hated by the Jews. Never the less, Christ was telling her, even a Samaritan, that the time was coming, and even now was, that God was seeking those who would worship him in spirit, and in truth. That is to say, that the time was coming and now was, that it would not matter what race, or nation you were from, as long as you worshiped God in spirit, and in truth. Those who are of the spirit are spirit, and those who are the flesh, are flesh.

John 4:
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
It was true for the Samaritan worman, and it is true for us today. Nothing has changed. God is a spirit. They that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Jesus made that quite clear to the Samaritan woman. He used the present tense.
Believe and you shall be saved; not believe and you shall be an Israelite. The Bible does not teach that.

John 3:5-6 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Those who are the spirit, regardless of race, or nationality, are those who are maintaining a knowledge of God in the world today. They are spiritual Israel, and the chosen of God, because they themselves have chosen God through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. They that are of the flesh, are flesh, regardless of race, or nationality. They cannot be God’s chosen people to maintain a knowledge of him in the world, because they cannot know the things of God which are revealed through the spirit of God. This of course includes all Jews who have not accepted Christ, as well as all others in this same condition.

Those who are born of the spirit, are born again. They are Christians, not Israelites. If you trust Christ then you are a Christian, a follower of Christ; not an Israelite, a follower of Jacob. Is that what you are? A follower of Jacob??
They that are of the flesh are those that are not saved, those that have rejected Christ.

Praise God that the promises and blessings which God had pronounced upon the children of Israel during the old covenant, have been opened up to all of humanity in and through the Lord Jesus Christ and him crucified. Which was his purpose in Christ from the beginning, even the salvation of the entire world. Christ died for each and every individual, choosing them for His very own, if they would just care to accept it. Oh the love and mercy of our awesome God. May His people finish the work in this world by the power of His Spirit that we might go home to be with Him ever more.

The promises that were given to Israel were never given to you. God did not speak to you out of a burning bush as He did to Moses. God did not give you two tablets of stone written with His own hand as He did Moses. God did not promise your descendant to sit in the throne of David. The promises to the nation of Israel were unique, and uniquely to them. They do not apply to you. Through them came the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, for which we can praise the Lord for. Through Christ came our salvation, if we but trust in Him. Both Jew and Gentile must now put their faith in Christ for salvation. When they do, they become a Christian, not an Israelite. In no way does the church replace the nation of Israel.

I have a challenge for all of you who believe in this Replacement Theology. Go and be a missionary to the nation of Israel. Tell them that the church has replaced them, and they are no longer Jews. The real Jews are Christians. Tell them face to face that they cannot be Jews. Be a missionary to the Jewish nation of Israel, with your Replacement Theology and see how far you get. The Great Commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature was given to all of us for every nation. We are responsible to give the gospel to the Jews also.
DHK

 

[Kamoroso]

Hello again DHK.

Here we go again.

You said-“Christ laid down his life for all, and because of that, we have all been chosen by God unto justification of all." That is only true if we come to Christ as a sinner and accept his sacrifice for our sins by faith.
We see in the Book of Acts that both
Paul, after the cross for 35 years (until his death) went to the Jew first and also to the Greek. He continued to witness to the Jewish nation, as well as to the Gentiles. Obviously the church had not replaced Israel, as Paul continued to take the gospel to them well after the death of Christ. Some of the first people that he met in Rome before the end of his life were Jews. His continual prayer was:”

Rom 5:17-19 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The free gift has come upon all men, unto justification of life. Jesus died for every single individual human being on this planet. He has chosen them to be saved, and accomplished their salvation through His death. However, this justification cannot be applied unless it is received, or accepted by the individual. Never the less, God has chosen them in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. The only question now is, will we choose God, in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

Name one promise that God made to the children of Israel during the old covenant, that is superior to what God has done in Christ Jesus for the entire world. There is nothing greater than what God has done for the entire world in and through Jesus Christ. The established promise, and good will of God toward all of humanity in Christ Jesus, is far superior to any favor God has shown anyone at any time in the past. It makes those who accept what has been done for them, the chosen people of God in this world.

The nation of Israel during the old covenant existed for the very purpose of maintaining a knowledge of the Savior in this world, until the savior himself could come and establish these promises. Namely, that God intended to give the life of His Son for the redemption of all humanity. My friend, you cannot separate these things. You cannot say that God’s chosen, or saved, people of the old covenant, and His chosen, or saved people of the new covenant are to separate groups of people. Christ was the center and salvation of all during the old covenant, and he is the center and salvation of all during this new covenant also. Both are Christ’s, and they are the same people. It is those Jews who rejected Christ, who are no longer God’s chosen people. Christ told them as much while here on earth.


John 5:37-40 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

You are right my friend, Paul continued to bring the gospel to the Jew first, and then the gentile. This is because he knew that they had left God, and were no longer God’s chosen people. For this reason, Paul was always trying to reach them with the gospel, because they were lost without it. They had rejected the one whom all their promises, and prophecies had pointed to, and therefore had given up their status as the chosen people of God. So is the condition of all the unsaved Jews of today.

Those Jews which rejected Christ, did so because they chose to believe a false interpretation of the old testament prophecies. They ignored the prophecies foretelling the Messiah’s humiliation, persecution, and death. Only Looking to the prophecies which foretold His exaltation as a king and conqueror. This they did because they wished to be exalted with Him, and by Him, without being transformed into His image. They refused to become God’s humble servants, seeking instead, only their own exaltation. This lead them to reject and crucify their Lord and Savior which their own scriptures testified of. In fact, their whole religion, and government pointed to this Lamb of God.

So likewise, your false interpretations of prophecy which will remove you from the humiliation, persecutions, and death suffered by those who will go through the great tribulation, will leave you unprepared for Christ’s second coming. You tenaciously stick to an interpretation of prophecy which makes those who have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior, the chosen people of God. One which also removes you from the humiliation mentioned above. All of Christ’s followers through the ages, have suffered persecution, and humiliation, even death, for their faith in Him. Yet you have exalted yourself to a position where you will not have to go through these things. Be sure my friend, that you are not choosing to believe these things, because you are not willing to go through persecution, or humiliation for your faith. If this is the case, you will find that your faith is in vain.

You said “ Paul's prayer for Israel, his kinsman, the Jewish nation, was that they would be saved. If the Jews had been replaced by the church, Paul's prayer would have been redundant. It would not even make sense. He would be praying for a nation that did not exist and could not exist, because according to you it had been replaced by Christianity. This is utter nonsense. I think Paul knew better than the advocates of Replacement Theology. “

Nonsense. Paul knew that they were lost. This is why he prayed for them continually. He wanted them to come back to the Israel of God which they left when they rejected Christ. Lets look again at the continuation of the scriptures which you cut off to prove your point.


Rom 10:1-4 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:8-13 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:19-21 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Again my friend, Paul is saying that there is no difference between Jew and Greek.


Rom 11:15-32 15 or if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The Jews who have rejected Christ have been cast out. They are the branches that have been cut off. They are the ones who do not believe now. They are not the chosen people of God. They can grafted back in though. As it stands now though, they are as the gentiles were when they did not believe. Verse 32 sums it up. God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. It is those who believe the promises that are the chosen people of God. The Israel of God. Jew or Gentile. Those who do not believe, are lost, and are not the chosen people of God, Jews and Gentiles. There are only two groups in this world, the children of promise, that is of faith, and those who do not believe. There is no in between group. No Jews who have rejected Christ as the Messiah, but are still the chosen of God. No gentiles who have accepted Christ as their Savior that are not the chosen of God. Christ has broken down the walls. We are either in Christ, or we are not. As many of us as are in Christ, are the children, and chosen of God. Those who are not, are the children of the prince of this world. There is no in between.

You said “ The Jews that rejected Christ as their Messiah, that crucified Him, were unsaved. Jews that reject Christ as their Savior today are unsaved. Gentiles, whether in the Apostle's day or in our day, that reject Christ as Savior are unsaved. Those that are saved are those that trust Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. They are called Christians, believers in Christ--not Jews, not even spiritual Jews. We are believers in Christ, Christians, which means followers of Christ. Are you a follower of Christ or of Jacob (an Israelite)?
The promise that will establish the nation of Israel as a Kingdom with Christ as their King is yet to be fulfilled, and as Paul says in Rom.11:26, "So all Israel shall be saved." Christ shall rule for a thousand years on earth. The apple of His eye will be the nation of Israel.”

My friend, you are wrong. The Jews were not followers of Jacob, they were supposed to be followers of Christ. It was He that established them as a nation, and delivered them from the Egyptians, which was a type of the worlds deliverance from sin, through Christ. Their whole government, and religion were built upon Christ, and the promise of His coming. Every sacrifice they made for their sins was a constant reminder of the coming Redeemer. Their whole economy and nation were built upon, and around the sanctuary and it’s services, which all pointed to Christ. Christ is the one mediator between man and God for all time, and for all people. You wish to make a separation between God’s people, and even who it was they followed. You are wrong for this.

1 Cor 10:1-5 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1 Cor 10:9 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Who do you think created this world? It was Christ. Who do think was in the burning bush speaking to Moses? It was Christ. Who do you think delivered the children of Israel from the Egyptians? It was Christ. Who do you think lead them through the wilderness? It was Christ. Who do you think Jacob was wrestling with, who changed Jacobs name to Israel, signifying Jacobs conversion? It was Christ. The Jews were Christ’s people, it was Him that they were supposed to be following. It is Him that the literal nation of Israel rejected. It was Him that the remnant of Israel accepted. It is in Him that all who believe in Him become one in Him. Even as He and the Father are one, so are we to be one in Him. This was God’s purpose in Christ from the very beginning. that all should come together and meet in Christ Jesus our Lord. Then when all have come together in Him, He will submit to the Father, and then god will be all in all.

John 17:10-11 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:21-23 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

We are one in Christ my friend. There is no difference. It was for this purpose that Christ came into the world. Stop trying to separate what God has joined together.


Col 1:13-22 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Praise God! In Christ we are reconciled to God, and are one in Him.


1 Cor 15:22-28 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This post is already to long. I will address your remarks regarding the thousand years in another post.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[Kamoroso]

John 5:28-29 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.-

It is clear from the verses above, that both the wicked, and the saved will be resurrected. One, to the resurrection of life, and the other to the resurrection of damnation. The next question to be asked, is when, will these resurrections take place, and do they occur at the same time? The scriptures answer both of these questions. -

1Thes 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.-

1 Cor 15:20-26 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.-

The scriptures above point out that Christ’s followers will be raised at His coming. They will meet Christ in the clouds, and will be with Him forever. Verse 14 says- “ 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” If we believe that Christ rose from the dead with a body, and went to heaven to be with His Father, then we can know, that he will do the same for us. We will be brought to heaven, body and spirit, with Christ, and will ever be with Him. This is the beginning of the thousand years reign with Christ. So what about the wicked, what happens to them at Christ’s coming? Let us examine the scriptures to see what Christ’s second coming means to the wicked.-

2 Pet 3:7 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.-

2 Pet 3:10-13 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.-

Zeph 1:14-17 14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their
flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.-

Rev 6:14-17 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?-

The wicked, and all of their works, will be destroyed, by the brightness of Christ’s coming. When the Lord Returns, those who are Christ’s will go with Him to heaven, to reign for one thousand years. On the other hand, the wicked will be destroyed, along with all of the works of this world, at His coming. This is why Satan cannot deceive the nations any more during the thousand years. There are no nations, or people to deceive during this thousand year period. The Devil is bound to this desolated planet for one thousand years, with no one to deceive, because all the wicked have perished. He will be left to ponder the results of his own workings. -

Rev 20:1-3 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.-

Rev 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.-

Again, those who are Christ’s, reign with him during this thousand years. However, the rest of the dead, that is the wicked who perished at Christ’s coming, live not again until the thousand years is finished ( verse 5 ). They did not take part in the first resurrection which took place at Christ’s coming, they are not blessed and holy, and they will die the second death ( verse 6 ). The wicked will take part in the second resurrection, which takes place when the new Jerusalem comes down to the earth at the end of the thousand years. It is at this time also, that Satan is loosed, and allowed to deceive the nations again ( verse 3 ). Of course, now Satan will have people to deceive again, because the wicked will have been raised in order to face their judgment, and die the second death. Satan and his followers will surround the city to attack it, but God will devour them with eternal fire.-

Rev 20:7-9 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.-

It is at the end of the thousand year period, that the New Jerusalem descends upon the earth. All the saved will be in it. When the wicked try to take the city, God will destroy them by fire. At this time, God will create a new heaven, and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. Sin and it’s originator, Satan, will be eradicated, never to appear again.-

Rev 21:9-10 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,-

Rev 21:22-24 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

God bless. Bye for now. Your brother in Christ, Keith.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kamoroso:

Again my friend, Paul is saying that there is no difference between Jew and Greek.

Just one comment, Keith.
Although there is no difference between Jew and Greek, by obvious inference there still remains Jew and Greek, and the one has not replaced the other. There are saved Jews and saved Greeks; unsaved Jews and unsaved Greeks; and they both exist one along side of the other. The Jewish nation still exists, just as you said. "There is no difference between Jew and Greek." There must be Jews alive, for there to be a contrast to be made. There must still be a Jewish nation.

Some day that Jewish nation will (as one nation) turn to God--"and so all Israel shall be saved." (Rom.11:26). It will happen at the end of the Tribulation Period when Christ comes again. Every eye shall see Him; and they also which pierced Him. The Jews are especially signalled out as the ones looking for, and seeing His Coming (Rev.1:7). He will then establish His Kingdom with the Jewish nation at the center in Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:16-21
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

The King is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Those in Jerusalem that keep the feast of tabernacles are the Jews, i.e., the literal nation of Israel.
This is during the Millennial Kingdom, the thousand year reign of Christ--on the earth, after the Tribulation.
In that day ALL tha families of THE EARTH shall come up to Jerusalem.
Christ will be reigning as the King. The Jews will finally have peace, and their enemies will be put to rest.

I suggest you read the entire chapter.
DHK

 

[amixedupmom]

Intresting topic...

I believe that the Lord isn't finished with the Jewish faith. I believe they are still his people just like we are. Brothers and Sisters. AS you might say. Same family just a little diffrent. I do not have any scriptures to back up what i'm saying, It's just what i feel and what i've seen. I pray for my Jewish friends. I don't witness to them. They feel they know God and are looking for his son to be born. The Lord is not done with any of us yet.

God Bless