Salvation

Singer, you fail to identify that it is the ones who justify themselves by the law are the ones that will die by the law. Living by the law is exactly what we were supposed to do, not justify ourselves by it.

Rephrase that in simpler terminology, Bob Ryan.
I've had a long day
Thanks

P.S. And maybe give me a few more options.

Singer -

You are saying that the OT saints are in a salvation system "under the law" as if they somehow are getting saved by "the works of the law" which we today - are not.

(Or else you are saying that since they are under the law - and as Paul states - the works of the law will never provide salvation - that they are not saved).

In either case - it is a problem. In the first case you have to posit - a two-gospel model. One "By Works of the Law" in the OT and another "by grace in the New" -- or else you have to condemn all OT saints to hell.

Neither one is very workable.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Yeslew, take your blinders off.

Honestly. It gets so annoying when people are so fixated on a few passages of scripture that the rest of scripture becomes skewed to fit what one believes is true based on only a few passages.

If you knew more, you would know that what has been said doesn't by any means mean that one will never get to heaven if they haven't been baptized.

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Actually Adam that is what Brother Ed, and the Catholic Church believe. Ed said that the only way to enter the new covenant was through baptism. The Catholic Church equates being born again with baptism. One is born again when one is baptized. That is when one becomes a member of the Catholic Church and enters into a covenantal relationship.
Only throught the Catholic Church is their salvation, and that only through baptism. Yelsew wasn't wrong in what he said.
DHK

Repenting of sin and believing in what Jesus did on the Cross is all that He requires [John 3:16] in order to be in the Kingdom of God and to be a part of the church. He knows who are His people and who are really saved. Being a part of a denomination officially is not required. But, being in worship and supporting the church gives witness to the truth. And just think if all Christians attended the church of their choice, what a witness that would be in our world.

Hebrews 10:25 reminds us to not forsake ' . . . the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another, and so much the more, as we see the day approaching.' Doing this identifies us with the visible church; the invisible or mystical church is only seen by Almighty God Himself. This latter church is the one that really counts.

Ray and DHK.......good response.

J.S. ......What law are we supposed to live by today ?
I thought we are under a new covenant. (Love God with all
heart and mind and the neighbor as thyself). The law has
been fulfilled.

Bob Ryan......I'm not saying all OT people were unsaved.
By what method was their salvation in your view?

"Actually Adam that is what Brother Ed, and the Catholic Church believe. Ed said that the only way to enter the new covenant was through baptism. The Catholic Church equates being born again with baptism. One is born again when one is baptized. That is when one becomes a member of the Catholic Church and enters into a covenantal relationship.
Only throught the Catholic Church is their salvation, and that only through baptism. Yelsew wasn't wrong in what he said."

Yes, actually he was very wrong in what he said. I just don't think any of you actually care to know why since your so busy bashing something you refuse to know more about.

"J.S. ......What law are we supposed to live by today ?
I thought we are under a new covenant. (Love God with all
heart and mind and the neighbor as thyself). The law has
been fulfilled."

While Mosiac law is fulfilled, we are still held to Moral law. Unless of course murdering babies and worshipping Baal has become okay.

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Yeslew, take your blinders off.

Honestly. It gets so annoying when people are so fixated on a few passages of scripture that the rest of scripture becomes skewed to fit what one believes is true based on only a few passages.

If you knew more, you would know that what has been said doesn't by any means mean that one will never get to heaven if they haven't been baptized.

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You cannot recieve eternal life at the Judgement Seat of Christ unless you are part of the New Covenant Kingdom, and you cannot be part of that kingdom unless you have choosen to enter it by the means which God ordained -- baptism.

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This is the lie that I responded to and you cannot tell me that John 3:18 does not say that, 'those who believe in Jesus are not Judged but those who believe not are judged already.' You also cannot tell me that John is not quoting Jesus directly. So if those are the direct words out of the mouth of God, who are you to say otherwise?

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
Singer, you fail to identify that it is the ones who justify themselves by the law are the ones that will die by the law. Living by the law is exactly what we were supposed to do, not justify ourselves by it.

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Please explain the mechanics of self justification. I cannot find such in scripture.

In fact the only justification that I find in scripture is the Justification that Jesus did for humanity when he died upon the cross. It is His act of atonement alone that justifies mankind.

Yeslew,

If I claimed that you were a practicing Muslim and as a practicing Muslim believed in the worship of the planet Jupiter as all practicing Muslims do, what would you do?

Likely be spitting bullets for the gross misrepresentation of your faith I made. You would probably correct me too- and I wouldn't blame you.

But what if I kept on keepin' on with the same story even after your correction?

You'd probably be pretty angry with me. Yet that is what a great deal of people here do to our Catholic friends. They have been patiently trying to explain their beliefs to us, yet most people don't care to listen. Instead they stick steadfast to their stereotypes and misrepresentations of their faith.

John 3


Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[1] "
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[3] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.[4] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[5]
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[7] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[8]

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Yet the Bible also tells us:

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.


James 2:17
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


James 2:26
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak in the tongues[1] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.


John 6


Jesus the Bread of Life

25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'[3] "
32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"
43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[4] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[5] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.


And this is just a start. Believing in Christ, having faith in our Lord, God, means believing in all that he is and all that he said, not picking and choosing the parts that we like.

I don't think that the faith a child has is as simple as it is complete, total, and unwavering, unless broken.

Brother Adam,

Yes, actually he was very wrong in what he said. I just don't think any of you actually care to know why since your so busy bashing something you refuse to know more about.

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I don't believe you have read any of my posts on any of the other topics relating to Salvation, Justification and Sanctification. If you did, you would not make this quoted statement. As a baptist you should know that water baptism, John's baptism, has no salvific power, but is rather a baptism unto repentence. That is, it is the baptism by which one changes their life from one of sin to one of righteous living. Repenting from sin and living righteously. It is a pledge to the church that the one baptised promises to be true to righteousness thus abandoning his former ways. The church accepts that persons promise and admits him into the congregation and thus the denomination for further instruction and edification.

The baptism that has any bearing on ones salvation is spirit baptism where the human spirit is regenerated, washed clean, as if in the waters of baptism. Afterall, it is the spirit that gives life to the flesh and not the other way around. The spirit is the life, the spirit is what leaves the flesh behind to live eternally with God.

What good is there then in washing the outer parts of the flesh? That is most often what Paul says too! Thus the statement that I say is a lie is truly a lie! Water baptism does nothing to get one to heaven!

[ July 12, 2003, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

Yes, we still must follow the moral code. Matthew 19, the young man asks what he can do to enter heaven and Jesus says keep the commandments and then lists them and tells him now to sell everything and follow him.

Yeslew - read the OT. I am talking about the mosaic law and how the Jews thought by getting circumcised etc that they would be justified by showing the outward signs of the law but in reality they were sinners who broke it every chance they had. It would be helpful to actually read the posts before you jump into the middle of a discussion, if you had you would have understood my point.

Care to reply on anything else I said?

John's baptism was not a Christian baptism. Those who were baptized by John were required by Paul to be rebaptized.

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
Yes, we still must follow the moral code. Matthew 19, the young man asks what he can do to enter heaven and Jesus says keep the commandments and then lists them and tells him now to sell everything and follow him.

Yeslew - read the OT. I am talking about the mosaic law and how the Jews thought by getting circumcised etc that they would be justified by showing the outward signs of the law but in reality they were sinners who broke it every chance they had. It would be helpful to actually read the posts before you jump into the middle of a discussion, if you had you would have understood my point.

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I don't think so, your words spoke loudly for themselves. Would you care to retract them and state what scriptures say is true about getting to heaven? If you let them stand you are saying that

You cannot recieve eternal life at the Judgement Seat of Christ unless you are part of the New Covenant Kingdom, and you cannot be part of that kingdom unless you have choosen to enter it by the means which God ordained -- baptism.

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Thus one cannot enter heaven without being baptised. Now I did assume by your context that you mean by water baptism. If I am wrong in my assumption then say so and I will apologize to you publically but if I am right in my assumption that you are speaking of water baptism then you have some explaining to do to God about how wrong HE is.

Yeslew - There is not need to be insistent with your confusion. I already explained what I meant, you just spoke in haste before and now you realize that and are trying to cover it up. The law was not bad, it was not sin. What was bad was the Jews who attempted to justify themselves by the law, I am not talking about true justification.

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Care to reply on anything else I said?

John's baptism was not a Christian baptism. Those who were baptized by John were required by Paul to be rebaptized.

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John told us that he baptises with water but the one who comes after himself will baptise with spirit. Was John wrong? Are we still required to baptise in water in order to get to heaven?

I know that many denominations require water baptism for membership in their churches, and I have no problem with that so long as such water baptism is not equated with the afterlife.

Our life here in the natural world and in eternity is spirit. It is our spirit that God loves for it is spirit that lives after the flesh dies. If God loved our flesh, he would make it eternal, yet every grave is still occupied with the remains of dead flesh.

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
Yeslew - There is not need to be insistent with your confusion. I already explained what I meant, you just spoke in haste before and now you realize that and are trying to cover it up. The law was not bad, it was not sin. What was bad was the Jews who attempted to justify themselves by the law, I am not talking about true justification.

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Who is talking about law?

John told us that he baptises with water but the one who comes after himself will baptise with spirit. Was John wrong? Are we still required to baptise in water in order to get to heaven?

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Those Paul baptized in Acts where baptized by John, and rebaptized by Paul, using the Trinitarian method using water. We are also told that there is one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Not two or three or four. It is not cool to get rebaptized several times to join a Church. At that point, you're just getting wet. We have "one faith, one Lord, one baptism".

Care to respond to any of the verses I cited?

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John told us that he baptises with water but the one who comes after himself will baptise with spirit. Was John wrong? Are we still required to baptise in water in order to get to heaven?

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Those Paul baptized in Acts where baptized by John, and rebaptized by Paul, using the Trinitarian method using water. We are also told that there is one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Not two or three or four. It is not cool to get rebaptized several times to join a Church. At that point, you're just getting wet. We have "one faith, one Lord, one baptism".

Care to respond to any of the verses I cited? </font>[/QUOTE]Brother Adam, Just to give some perspective, I am in my sixth decade of natural life, and fifth decade of Christian life. I too for decades have been using scripture as you do to justify my position relative to religion. Yes, I could comment on everyone of your posted scriptures, and have done so many times on other topics.

I entered into this discussion when I noticed that someone had posted a direct lie, something that is not scriptural and not true. Water Baptism is not required to be inducted into the Kingdom of God. Spirit baptism, the renewing of one's spiritual state from sinner to saint is what makes one a member of the Kingdom of God.

Remember, Jesus told us that God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in Truth. Remember, Genesis tells us we are made in the image of God. God is spirit, therefore to be in the image of God, we too are spirit. Scripture tells us that spirit is the life of the flesh, also, that it is the spirit that is important for the flesh has nothing to offer.

I don't know if you understand that spirit is not impacted by water. Spirit passes through water, and truly through all mass, without so much as a ripple, therefore water baptism has no effect on spirit.

I am not saying that one need not be water baptised, for truly there is a good reason for it, but eternal life is not that reason. Eternal life is life of the Spirit and not the flesh. Every grave but one remains occupied with dead flesh!

Paul's 'rebaptising' in acts was done after the people baptised received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. So those in Acts had not received the Holy Spirit thus their baptism in water was nothing more than a repentance baptism.

Just what baptism do you think is the one whereby sins are forgiven? It certainly is not water, because sins are of the spirit. Remember the spirit is the life of the flesh, and sins are done in life. Water has no effect on spirit!

In Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus, Jesus himself made the same distinction between the natural and spiritual. He told Nicodemus that man must first be born of water, which is natural childbirth, and then of spirit, which is being reborn. That is where we get the concept of "Born Again Christian". God's plan for man is that Man must be a living, air breathing creation before he can hear the Gospel and choose to believe in Jesus or to not believe. So there can be none who go from nothing to eternal life without first being born into natural life, then into spiritual life. No, Jesus is not telling Nicodemus about water baptism!

Do you agree so far? If you don't agree on these things, there will probably be no agreement if we go beyond.