Salvation

How fascinating. I notice that once "Dr. Ketchum" gets an answer to his nonsense about the law of God, an answer from a seminary trained man who KNOWS what the Scripture teaches and not the distortions of Baptistry, rather than answer the answer, he immediately resorts to the old saw about the "papists lopping off the heads of Baptist faithful".

And THAT is exegesis?

Sheeesh.

And as for your veiled threat of damnation for all Catholics (you reformed Baptists are a HOOT!!) perhaps you might want to consider this:

REBELLION is the most serious of all sins against God. Scripture states that it is "as the sin of witchcraft." Everywhere I look in Scripture, those who rebelled against the commands, institutions, ordinances, and sacraments of God did not fare well at all.

Perhaps, sir, it is may be YOU who will find that your standing rebellion against the Church which our Lord established upon St. Peter has put you in bad stead on the great Day of Judgement.

Brother Curtis --

The reason the Roman rite doesn't look anything like any church you find in the Scriptures is twofold:

First of all, you are not looking closely nor properly. You are trying to fit the Church into a preconcieved mold based on Baptistic presuppositions.

Secondly, the Novus Ordo Mass and the misapplication of the reforms of Vatican II have pretty well wrecked the Church. We in the Byzantine rite continue to get disinfrancised Latins who wish to worship in the fullness of the glory which the Church had in Her earliest days. Latin errors include:

Denying children the Eucharist. The children of the Old Covenant were allowed to partake of the Passover, how then, under a "new and better covenant" do they deny the children of the New Covenant?

Sloppy architecture which does not reflect the heavenly. In Hebrews 8:5, Scripture shows us that the worship of the Church must reflect that of the true in Heaven. Roman architecture has been infected and infested with modernism and the spirit of trying to appeal to the massa damnata. Only the architecture of the Eastern Greek Church properly reflectes the Temple and its continuing glory, now found in Christ as fulfillment.

Imprecise wording in the Liturgy. By what authority did Vatican II change the words of consecration which our Lord Himself spoke at the first Eucharistic meal? I need a good answer for that one.

WOMEN AT THE ALTAR!!!

SCANDAL!!!!

The holiest of all, the area of the altar, is reserved for covenantal heads only, that is, priests (and male altar servers!!) This is just a pretext, a jumping off place by which the feminazis in the Roman rite can push their agenda and keep trying for wimmen priests.

Christianity is the contination and fulfillment of the true religion which God established with the Jews in the desert. As such, because God said that the earthly must resemble the heavenly, the changing of His ordained way into something else ought to be a profound scandal to Catholics. The Faith in praxis must look like Judaism, except that now we do not celebrate in anticipation of the coming Messiah, but in fulfillment of His coming and finshed work of redemption for mankind.

You want to see a NT church, Brother Curtis. There's a nice Orthodox Church in your area that I almost went to the last time I was up there. Go some Sunday and soak in real worship like a sponge.

Cordially in Christ through the Blessed Theotokos,

Brother Ed -- who is now waiting for the howls of protest from my Latin brothers. My brothers -- clean your house, please!!!

 

Yelsew --

Excellent questions, and worthy of an attempt to answer.

What is salvation?

Well, it seems obvious to me that it is the act or state of being "saved" from something. So the first thing we should do is find out from what we need to be saved.

What is one saved from?

I believe it is our state of natural condemnation:

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

We are, thanks to the sin of our covenantal head, in a state of "death", which the Bible describes as separation from God. Unlike Adam, we have no life giving relationship with God. And if we live and die in that relationship unchanged, we shall go into eternity in this state of separation, which the Scriptures describe as "eternal death" or "hell".

A lamentable and fearful situation indeed!! And one we need to be rescued, or "saved" from.

What we are NOT saved from, contrary to Baptist and Calvinistic error, is the Judgement Seat on the Last Day, for Romans 2: 7 says that ALL MEN shall stand before Christ in judgement, and Romans 2: 8 - 10 describes the nature of this judgement, i.e., those who "do good" shall INHERIT eternal life, those who do evil shall INHERIT eternal damnation.

What does it take to be saved?

It takes one to re establish the broken covenantal relationship with the Father. God set up a number of these "ADAMS", but none of them succeeded, so He enfleshed Himself in the person of the Son and came to earth to do the job Himself. He kept the covenant of God perfectly, paid the price for Adam's sin which broke the covenant, and established the New Covenant in His Blood, restoring the Garden family relationship with the Father.

It takes being adopted by Grace into the family of God, for the covenantal relationship is a family relationship, not a legal paradigm as taught by Calvinists. It is the Father "bringing many sons (and daughters) to glory" through the adoption of faith.

It takes our response to the calling of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God calls, and we are called upon to respond in faith, making Christ our Savior from our fallen state, and our Lord, the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45) Who is Head over the New Covenant family.

What must I do to be saved

I must hear the voice of the Holy Spirit and obey His instructions. Yet, in the mystery of God, only those who will actually hear the Spirit are those who are the "elect" of God. In Catholic soteriology, the "election" of grace is dependant upon the obedience of the sinner to the call of grace. Unlike Calvinism, which has God unjustly "reprobating" some to eternal damnation with no reference to their response to Him (a MOST unjust thing to do), Catholic teaching on the "election of the saints" is based on God's foreknowledge of those who will respond and those who will not. God, knowing fully well how each man or woman will respond to the Gospel message, gives the grace of hearing to those who will respond, and to those who have, as Pharoah, hardened their hearts, He gives not the grace to hear, for they will reject the message anyway. Thus, their condemnation is just, for God's response of grace is only in proportion to how they will receive or reject the call of God to salvation.

To be saved, one must "cut covenant" with God, for this is the way that all enter the family of God. In the Old Covenant, this "cutting covenant" was done by the removal of the flesh of the male. That act, done to males only, pointed prophetically to the coming Messiah. It prophesied that He would be "cut off" in the flesh for the sins of the world, that His Blood would be shed, and that He would be male, not female.

In the New Covenant, this "cutting covenant" is baptism, for like its predecessor, circumcision, it is a sign/seal/oath. By baptism, we show that the Messiah has come and died, been placed in the ground (meaning immersion is the correct form to show this), and is risen to new life as the new covenantal Head of the Kingdom of God. We no longer circumcise because to do so would be to continue the prophecy of a coming Messiah, and in effect, we would be denying the work of Christ upon the Cross.

No man enters a covenant without the shedding of blood. In the Old Covenant, the blood of the sinner was shed. In the New Covenant, the Blood of the Savior is shed and we enter into the shedding of that Blood by becomind one with that death (Romans 6:3). His death, His Blood shed, becomes ours as we unite with Him in baptism.

Now if by salvation, you mean the reception of "eternal life", then that is another issue entirely, for eternal life is the "INHERITANCE" of our salvation. Inheritances are FREE GIFTS FROM THE FATHER -- but

THEY CAN BE LOST THROUGH WICKEDNESS.

Just as a father here on earth can and often will disinherit a child who has brought reproach upon the family name, so the Father will disinherit those who have left his house and scandalized the family by living in unrepentant sin.

Salvation is a one time act, making a covenant with God through the finished work of Christ, and entering the family of God. Eternal life is the inheritance of salvation, and must be guarded and cared for by our obedience to the Father in keeping His will, as expressed through the Scriptures by the interpretation of the Church, His authorized "pillar and ground of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

This is why St. Paul encourages us to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling". Obviously, fear and trembling speaks to the fact that we can leave the Father's house and reject our inheritance.

A fearful thing indeed.

Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,

Brother Ed

 

Thanks Justified Saint. But then, it wouldn't smart of us to all be asleep at the end of time. I guess that's what we have DHK and the like for--to keep us all alert. But my goodness, nothing like getting smacked upside the head with a frying pan!

 

Thessalonian,

Thessalonian said, 'I am wondering at this point if you read my posts or did you just feel like bowling over a straw man. I said "we too have this spirit, but individually can turn our backs on it and reject it. "

Ray is saying, 'Yes, we can turn our back on the Lord, but this does not mean that He will forsake us. On the contrary, He says, 'I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.' [Hebrews 13:5] The Apostle John declares to the saints that ' . . . His seed remaineth in him; and he cannot practice sinning, because he is born of God.' [I John 3:9]

Thessalonian said, 'When an individual leaves God's family, the Church, the spirit does not leave the Church.'

Ray is saying, 'I take it that you mean the Holy Spirit does not leave the church building. I was under the impression that God is omnipresent, meaning everywhere present at the same time.'

Thessalonian said, 'The advocate is with the Church. He is also with us when we follow the Church.

Ray is saying, 'At least for me being a pastor we do not put too much credibility in a denomination because denominations sometimes go astray. We try to follow the Bible and what He is saying to us from this source, rather than some bishop, who is also finite.

Thessalonian said, 'If it applied to each individual that read it then everyone who read
the Bible would have it.

Ray---No, Jesus is only saying that the Holy Spirit will abide forever in those who genuinely have received Christ as personal Savior.

Thessalonian---Jesus said it to Judas in John 14. He was there. Did he recieve the advocate? Why not.

Ray--Jesus said that Judas was a devil from the beginning. Judas followed the band of disciples because, apparently he was stealing from the treasury. He like the idea of traveling with Christ but did not make that inner commitment of heart and life, as we have experienced Him.

Thessalonian--Jesus told him he would if the context of this verse is to each individual.

Ray---Jesus was speaking this only to those who were genuine. When a priest and minister gives a benediction, all in the congregation hear his voice, but the blessing only falls on those who know and love Jesus Christ. Judas was not blessed with the inner Presence of the Holy Spirit. At the table of the Lord, Jesus told him to go and do quickly whatever he had to do. He did and Judas betrayed the Divine Lord.

 

That is not what the Gospel Message says! The response to the Question "what must I do to be saved?", is, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house.

Covenant schmovenant! Religious clap trap! The old covenant sign was a mark in the flesh. The new covenant sign is a changed spirit. A change that takes place when one believes. A changed spirit cannot be seen as what it is, but by what it does.

ANYTHING else is religious clap trap!

 

...and thy house.

So one person in the household (the head?) can save the whole household by his belief?

 

Thanks Thessalonian. I believe we can get somewhere.
I believe that salvation is all of grace, initiated by the grace of God, and completed by the grace of God. In order for one to be saved he first needs the operation of the Holy Spirit in his life. Remeber on the Day of Pentecost how the 3000 were "pricked in their heart."

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
--This was the conviction of the Holy Spirit working in their lives before they were even saved. That is work and purpose of the Holy Spirit.

John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
--His purpose is to convict the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement.

Thus salvation starts with the conviction of the Holy Spirit before one is saved, with God drawing one to Himself with the power of the Holy Spirit. This also is grace.

The work of salvation on the cross is all of grace. It is entirely by the grace of God that Christ died for us. He didn't have to. We don't deserve it. He died for us any way, even though we are unworthy of such love. That is grace.

That gift is salvation. It is the gift of eternal life (Rom.6:23; Eph.2:8,9). It simply needs to be accepted by faith. That is grace.

After one believes, after he already has that eternal life, he is able to live the Christian life in the power, strength and love of Jesus Christ. That comes only by the grace of God. It is freely given to us by God. It has nothing to do with our salvation. It is a result of our salvation. In 2Cor.12 Paul prayed that God would remove an infirmity of the flesh, a thorn in the flesh. Three times he prayed that God would remove this. Each time the Lord answered: "My grace is sufficient for thee." Paul answered, "Therefore will I gladly glory in my weakness, in my infirmities..." For when I am weak, then am I made strong. He depended on God's grace on a daily basis to live the Christian life, not for salvation, but to live the Christian life. I hope that makes sense to you.
DHK

 

Fascinating!

Would you say that to Jesus' face? After all, He said "This is the new covenant in my Blood". Seems that if He inaugurated the New Covenant by means of the most painful death imagineable, it should have some importance to the Christian.

No, the New Covenant sign is not a changed spirit because no one can see a changed spirit. One can, however, very clearly see baptism and know exactly what it means. That is why in many countries, when a person is baptized into the Christian faith from paganism, they are treated as if they no longer exist. The testimony of the outward covenant sign is powerful testimony to faith within.

A changed spirit may not be seen by what it does. What of the atheist who is, for whatever psychological or personal reasons, noble, charitable, kind, gracious, etc? Since there will be no change in his outward conduct to his fellow man, what change would be seen by those observing his life?

Your response is kind of over the top, considering that the word "covenant" is a distinctly Biblical word which appears over 280 times in Scripture.


Cordially in Christ through the Blessed Theotokos,


Brother Ed

 

Not what the Bible says:

Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Or would you call the goodness of the Lord falling up the evil a curse instead of a blessing. If you do, well that is sure a strange theology that calls God's good "evil".

Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,

Brother Ed

 

...and thy house.

So one person in the household (the head?) can save the whole household by his belief? </font>[/QUOTE]That is what Paul said to the Roman jailer.

 

“For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, to all who have longed for his appearance.” 2 Timothy 4:6-8

I have finished the race
What race? The race for the crown of life which gives eternal life. The same race that Paul feared he could become disqualified from in Corinthians, that is disqualified form eternal life.

I have kept the faith
How is it possible for Paul to keep the faith since he has no power to hold on to it? If one can keep the faith, then one can lose it. How can one lose it if it is impossible to lose?

From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me

Wait, only after nearing the end of his life the crown awaits him? Didn't he know that it was always awaiting him from the moment he believed?

the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, to all who have longed for his appearance

By what basis does the just judge award eternal life to man? He awards it to those who have longed for his appearance, the ones who have remained steadfast and hopeful.

 

I am saved, being saved, will be saved .

I am Married, being married, will be married !!

Ya.................Right

 

You actually could say that. You have been married, and you are in a marriage. However, your marriage will disolve upon the death of you or your spouse.

Likewise, you were saved at one point in your life. You are being saved now- from damnation and in the process of santification wherein your hope of heaven lies, and you will be ultimately saved when you enter heaven. You have yet to debunk the concept so clearly laid out in scripture.

 

Likewise, you were saved at one point in your life.

Yes, something like April 15, l976 at which time I accepted Christ in a public
arena and made my witness unto others. Baptism is a biblical way to produce
that witness, but is not a demand upon us to do so. I have thanked God for the
gift of His Son that secured my salvation "because I believed". Our faith saves
us as it is promised in scripture. The Holy Spirit is granted unto us through the
act of believing. We cannot say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Ghost.

"Jesus Is Lord".

Romans 10:13
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

I called; He heard. Salvation was granted. I do not fear that He will go back
on His Word; my salvation HAS BEEN worked out through fear and
trembling. There is no need to continue fearing and trembling. Past tense.
It's time to Praise the Lord !!

 

On the contrary many will shout out the name 'Lord, Lord', but only those who do the will of God will see heaven.

Just because a person says "Jesus is Lord" that doesn't mean a person is saved. Always looking for the easy way, eh Sing? Nice try though.

 

Demonstration(kids don't try this at home):

"Jesus is Lord."

"Jesus is not Lord."

Now only by the Holy Spirit can I say the first statement, how is it possible to say the second statement then?

 

I suggest you not do it!

 

On the contrary many will shout out the name 'Lord, Lord', but only
those who do the will of God will see heaven.

What do you mean.."On the contrary". I was quoting scripture.

As for your "Jesus is Lord " test, God knows your heart. We can't play games
with that issue.

It's a heart matter anyhow...it's a spirit that beckons (God is Spirit) and it's in our
spirit that we respond. Following traditions, rules, regulations, orders, influences
etc. wont cut it.

"Confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that
God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"

That's scripture too..sounds too easy doesn't it ?
It is easy...His yoke is easy and His burden is light.
Don't be tied to the burden of some manmade entity.
See what I mean?

Oh hey, re: your verse above, what is God's will ?

 

Hey these ppl believed...but the Bible tells us that had yet to receive the Holy Ghost? What's up with that, all you folks who think that belief is all that's necessary for salvation?

 

The Bible says that belief in Christ was all that was necessary for salvation. Read your Bible carefully.

Do you think Philip baptized unsaved people??
DHK