Salvation

[Ray Berrian]

Jesus met with a woman at the well. She drank from Christ, the living water, and if I recall the correct words, Jesus promised that this initial drinking of the living water would spring up into everlasting life. Salvation is finding, coming to know and following Jesus Christ. We are saved by Christ alone. His grace is received by our response toward Him. Salvation is unmerited, free to all who receive Him, and thank God it is everlasting life to those who love Him. Being in the faith, to me, is not merely reciting a creed, it is knowing and loving Christ in an intimate fellowship with the Triune Godhead. 'Oh, to grace how great a debtor' I am before Jesus.

Notice, Jesus did not have to repeat coming to the well to renew her faith. She was saved by her willing acceptance of Him. Her faith and our continued faith is only the outflow of His living water in our hearts and lives that He originally placed there in the Person of the Holy Spirit.

 

[thessalonian]

"For example He says that when we receive Christ, {John 1:12} He give us the Holy Spirit forever. {John 14:16} Do you believe this with all of your inner strength of mind and heart? "

Jesus was not speaking to any individual in Joh 14:16 but to the group as a whole. The Church. Individuals are not gauranteed the truth as the context of that verse clearly indicates. The Church is the pillar and support of the truth, not the individual Christian. (1 Tim 3:15). When we conform and submit to his Church which is the pillar and support of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) we too have this spirit, but individually can turn our backs on it and reject it. (it's called falling away in the scriptures).

Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Luke 8:13
"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

In Ephesians 5 Jesus relates himself and the Church to a husband and a wife. We are a part of God's family ray. Now did you just obey your dad when you were growing up or did your mom have a little pull also. I sure hope so since that 4th (your 5th I think) commandment says to honor your father and mother.

God bless Ray.

[ July 08, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

In Ephesians 5 Jesus relates himself and the Church to a husband and a wife.
We are a part of God's family ray. Now did you just obey your dad when
you were growing up or did your mom have a little pull also. I sure hope so
since that 4th (your 5th I think) commandment says to honor your father
and mother.

Ray is saying, 'Yes, the church is the bride of Christ and the groom is the Triune Godhead. Yes, all Christians are in His family. I say this most respectfully, but God the Father and Mary were not my physical parents. Please, you know how we believe about allegories.

Exodus 20:3 says 'Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.' I believe God is one and yet He is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This leaves out all other spiritual persons.

My question to you is, 'What is a 'graven image?' or any likeness of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath . . . ' [Exodus 20:4]

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
In Ephesians 5 Jesus relates himself and the Church to a husband and a wife.
We are a part of God's family ray. Now did you just obey your dad when
you were growing up or did your mom have a little pull also. I sure hope so
since that 4th (your 5th I think) commandment says to honor your father
and mother.

Ray is saying, 'Yes, the church is the bride of Christ and the groom is the Triune Godhead. Yes, all Christians are in His family. I say this most respectfully, but God the Father and Mary were not my physical parents. Please, you know how we believe about allegories.

Exodus 20:3 says 'Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.' I believe God is one and yet He is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This leaves out all other spiritual persons.

My question to you is, 'What is a 'graven image?' or any likeness of anything that is in Heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath . . . ' [Exodus 20:4]

Ray,

Why did you go running off in another direction when I stayed on topic. Where did I say anthing about Mary in my post. Do you submit to the Church or not. The Church is our Mother. Do you agree or disagree? Where did I say God was a physical father to me or Mary a physical mother? What other God's are you claiming I have. I know of none except the trinity that you mention. What kind of a father was Paul to the Corinthians:

Corinthians 4:15
For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel

He was one busy guy if he was their physical father.

As for graven images, you see that is why the Catholic Church puts your second commandment in with the first. Because if you notice Ex 25 comes after exodus 20 and in that verse (ex 25) God allows and even commands the making of some images over the Mercy Seat. No violation to any commandment I would assume, even though clearly they already had the commandment. There were also images in Solomons temple and there's that darn bronze serpant that Moses had to make or alot of people would have died. Now when they started worshiping that bronze serpant it kind of got destroyed. So there you have it. Graven images are okay as long as they aren't worship (see council of trent for the Catholic perspective on this) and we attribute nothing to the images we have except as reminders to us of people who lived the faith in Jesus Christ. And of course the crusifix gives us a vivid example of what he went through for us and that we helped put him there, thus motivating repentence on our part.

Blessing Ray.

 

[bishopnl]

Rom. 8:9
"9": But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

To be saved...one must have the spirit of Christ. Do you receive that at the moment that you believe?

 

[thessalonian]

Ray,

I have a question for you. Now we know that the Ark of the Covenant is lost. I think in Eziekel somewhere it tells of that. Some say it is under where the temple was. Others say it is in Ethiopia where there are many Jews. There are also known to be duplicates of it there. Now let's say this Ark were to be found. Would you be against the Jews or anyone else kneeling down and praying before it?

 

[Justified Saint]

Question, if eternal security is a biblical doctrine, then why are there so many verses placing salvation conditional to the state of the believer at death? Why is there so much language specifically saying "keep the faith" since the faith isn't in our hands anyways or is it?

 

[Ray Berrian]

thessalonian said,

'Jesus was not speaking to any individual in John 14:16 but to the group as a whole. The Church. Individuals are not gauranteed the truth as the context of that verse clearly indicates.

Ray is saying, 'The individual Christian is a infintesimal part of the whole church who also is indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Yes, the whole world wide church has the Spirit of God; but so does the individual Christian, thanks be to God. That is why the Apostle Paul is saying in Ephesians 4:30 not to 'grieve the Holy Spirit of God.' Why? Because He has come to live and stay in our hearts and lives as our 'Comforter' and 'Counsellor. [Isaiah 9:6e] If we sin wilfully we feel a sense of guilt and our spiritual life is messed up/distorted until we again renew our fellowship with our Lord. No true Christian enjoys sinning against the Lord God.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by bishopnl:
Rom. 8:9
"9": But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

To be saved...one must have the spirit of Christ. Do you receive that at the moment that you believe?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

When a person receives Jesus Christ as their Saviour, Christ by the power of His Spirit comes and takes up residence in the believer.

1Cor.6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The Holy Spirit indwells us at the point of salvation. The gift of God is eternal life (Rom.6:23), and we become eternally secure in Him.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
Question, if eternal security is a biblical doctrine, then why are there so many verses placing salvation conditional to the state of the believer at death? Why is there so much language specifically saying "keep the faith" since the faith isn't in our hands anyways or is it?

Salvation is totally unconditional. It is a gift of God with no conditions attached. You must simply receive it by faith. It is a gift to be given out of the grace of God. There is nothing that man can do to merit salvation.
DHK

 

[Justified Saint]

Ok, wake me up when God saves me.

 

[Justified Saint]

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:

Ah, another example of OSAS (Once Saved, Always Snoring).

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
thessalonian said,

'Jesus was not speaking to any individual in John 14:16 but to the group as a whole. The Church. Individuals are not gauranteed the truth as the context of that verse clearly indicates.

Ray is saying, 'The individual Christian is a infintesimal part of the whole church who also is indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Yes, the whole world wide church has the Spirit of God; but so does the individual Christian, thanks be to God. That is why the Apostle Paul is saying in Ephesians 4:30 not to 'grieve the Holy Spirit of God.' Why? Because He has come to live and stay in our hearts and lives as our 'Comforter' and 'Counsellor. [Isaiah 9:6e] If we sin wilfully we feel a sense of guilt and our spiritual life is messed up/distorted until we again renew our fellowship with our Lord. No true Christian enjoys sinning against the Lord God.

Ray,

I am wondering at this point if you read my posts or did you just feel like bowling over a straw man. I said "we too have this spirit, but individually can turn our backs on it and reject it. " When an individual leaves God's family, the Church, the spirit does not leave the Church.

The advocate is with the Church. He is also with us when we follow the Church. If it applied to each individual that read it then everyone who read the Bible would have it. Jesus said it to Judas in John 14. He was there. Did he recieve the advocate? Why not. Jesus told him he would if the context of this verse is to each individual.

 

[thessalonian]

"There is nothing that man can do to merit salvation."

But you do have to repent of course?
How about love? Paul says, faith, hope and love abide, but the greates of these is love. So certainly love is required for one to be saved.

 

[Justified Saint]

Love?? Are you crazy thessolonian??

You aren't allowed to love, because if you love then you are working or trying to merit salvation, that is a Bible no-no.
Here just pull up a pillow and fall asleep, God's got it all under control, we will wake you up when he decides to take you to heaven.

MikeS -

uh...what? Did you say something?

 

[QuoVadis?]

James 2:17? James 2:24? James 2:26? Philippians 2:12??? Am I missing something? I guess since it isn't in the Bible, I don't have to read it.

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
Love?? Are you crazy thessolonian??

You aren't allowed to love, because if you love then you are working or trying to merit salvation, that is a Bible no-no.
Here just pull up a pillow and fall asleep, God's got it all under control, we will wake you up when he decides to take you to heaven.

MikeS -

uh...what? Did you say something?

By the way, I don't think that OUR repentence and OUR love and OUR obedience merrit us anything. For these can only truly happen in us by the grace of God, thus it is him working in us by his grace that brings them about so it is HIS moving us to repentence and HIS moving us to love and HIS moving us to do good lest we boast. So DHK is right in principle. Salvation is free. He has the right answer but if the teacher checks his work he will loose points. It is God working in and through us to make it happen .

Ephesians 3:20
Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works WITHIN US,

Follow him.

 

[Justified Saint]

Indeed, one can not merit salvation, but there is such as thing as gracious merit, working under God's grace to please him. God defintely wants to be pleased and see us have a strong personal relationship with him, that is the basis of salvation. Only by God's grace can we have obedience and love, true, but he can't force us to love and be obedient. For man can have faith so as to move mountains but not have love.

 

[Justified Saint]

QuoVadis - A bad dream is all, just go back to sleep.