Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

Ok, guys, here is where I guess this is going to take place. It is kind of exciteing

Ok I guess it is going to take a little bit of time to type up an introduction. So give me at least a moon or so to put something to gether.

God bless.

[ August 12, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

As far as format I think we will go as follows.

</font>

• Introduction </font>
• Rebuttle </font>
• Questions from Oneness and Naomie </font>
• Open up Questions from BB members </font>
• Closeing</font>

Naomie, if you have any objections to that please feel free to address them.

[ August 08, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

Hey, I have not forgotten, I have been so busy, I have some of it typed so just hang in there, i promise it will be soon.

God bless.

Originally posted by ONENESS:
As far as format I think we will go as follows.

</font>

• Introduction </font>
• Rebuttle </font>
• Questions from Oneness and Naomie </font>
• Open up Questions from BB members </font>
• Closeing</font>

Naomie, if you have any objections to that please feel free to address them.

Click to expand...

Okay! You first
Naomi

ONENESS -

I edited your initial post to take out the screen names. I had corresponded with Naomi and told her I would be happy to moderate a debate between you two and have been so busy that I had not had a chance to assist in laying down the rules. My apologies.

The fair way to do this and keep it controlled (i.e. other members breaking into the thread, debators knowing what the other will say before rebuttals, etc.) is to e-mail me with your contributions at:

debate@baptistmail.com

I will post both entries at the same time. The entry I recieve first will gewt the "last word" as it were. Other rules you two may want to agree upon are word count limits, posting of URL's, time limit, and use of UBB coding.

If you agree to the use of a moderator, I can post the entries and then close the thread to prevent intrusion. Then a parallel thread can be opened for discussion of the debate.

Please let me know if you wish my involvement. I will find time to help with this.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

Guys I am really sorry about the delay, I rally am trying to hurry. I have just had so much to do at my job here this week. I do have alot of it typed up though. But I am still working on it.

Naomi, Did you read what clint posted? Do you want to have a certain amount of words in the intro?

get back in touch with me

God bless

Ok, here is just a simple introduction, Something Im sure you all have heard before, but i figured that it was something to get the ball rolling.

I will start with a short illustration of The children of God leaving the old land.

Moses lead the Children of Israel out of bondage and they were almost about to walk into a Land that flows with Milk and hunney. The Jordan was the only thing that stood b/t them and the promise land. They were about to enter into a land with goodly cities which they did not build, homes full of things that they filledst not, and wells digged, which they diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees which they plantedst not.. (Deut 6:10-11) It was a place of many Gods and a place they would see what they had never seen before and a place where their children would see things they had never saw before. And Moses was concerned and delivered the law a second time to them. And he said

Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shlat love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day shall be in thine heart. And thou shlat teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in by the way and when thou liest down and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house and on thy gates

Click to expand...

Deuteronomy 6:4 is the foundation of the Old Testament. And is probably the most important confession of Faith for the Jews

I am expressing the fact that there is only one God, ( Col 2:9,) who has manifested himself as a Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We recognize these manifestations as a work in relationship. God was the Father in creation, The Son in Redemption, and He is the Holy Spirit that lives inside of us today.

Now we understand that the Old Testament is our schoolmaster which leads us to Christ. (Galatians 3:24). If we are going to study trig or calculus we need to make sure our adding and subtracting is correct before we can move on. So before we can understand who Jesus is in the New Testament we need to understand who God was is in the Old Testament.

Was there only One God in the Old Testament? The bible is emphatic that there was. The Old Testament gives us solid evidence that God cannot be divided, separated, or split into persons. (Isa 44:24) When God did something he always did it by himself. He was alone. There was no one there to help him. We know that God works all things after the counsel of his own will.(Ephesians 1:11)

And we know that God to be Jehovah. Jehovah said (Isa 43:10-11) before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Jehovah said in (Isa 45: 21-23) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Now when we come to the New Testament we find that Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old. Jehovah said in Isaiah that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear. And we find the fulfillment of that in Philippians 2:9-11. Wherefore, God also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of both things in heaven and things in earth, and things under the earth, And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So what does that tell us? It tells us that Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament revealed in the Flesh. Not one part of Jehovah, not a piece of Jehovah but Jehovah himself. Jesus Christ is the Father incarnate.

If Jehovah said I am the only saviour how can we recognize Jesus as our Savior? The Only way that is possible is if we see Jesus Christ as the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

We are often referred to as “Jesus Only”. There isn’t anything wrong with that if you are viewing the Godhead from a oneness point of view. But seeing that as someone who believes in a Trinity, they will often assume that we do not believe in the Father and Holy Ghost. And I want to say that we do believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We do not see those titles as being three separate persons.

The bible tells us that the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Jesus Christ.(Col 2:9) So in other words everything that the Godhead is we find in Jesus Christ.

Hey Naomi, where ya at? have not heard anything out of you?

Oneness,
I was not sure if we were going to e-mail Clint with our introductions, or what.
Is Clint the moderator for this? Let me know.
I can either begin my intro here, or send to Clint.
Let me know....
Naomi

Originally posted by Naomi:
Oneness,
I was not sure if we were going to e-mail Clint with our introductions, or what.
Is Clint the moderator for this? Let me know.
I can either begin my intro here, or send to Clint.
Let me know....
Naomi

Click to expand...

Hey Naomi, go ahead and we will just post here. that will save us from haveing a middle man.

God Bless

My position on the Trinity is simple. The Bible clearly teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each divine, each distinct, and yet there is just one God. The name of God used in Genesis 1:1, Elohim, is plural, and in making human beings God uses plural language: "Let us make man in our image.
We see these hints of plurality in the Old Testament because we look back with a perspective given by the New Testament revelation. We can see Jesus presented as One, who was with God and was God from eternity (John 1:1-3) We hear Jesus speak of the Father as the only "True God" and yet affirm, that "I and the Father are One"
In Ephesians 1, we see the roles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in salvation spelled out for us, with each person acknowledged as God.
God is one. While the New Testament calls for us to acknowledge Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God, the Old Testament undergirds the conviction that there is only one God.
Thus, we may not understand in our human wisdom, and no analogy seems capable enough to symbolize the three in oneness of God. However; we hear the testimony of the scriptures and we believe. We worship the Father, we worship the Son, and we worship the Holy Spirit. For these three are God, and these three are one.

Originally posted by Naomi:
My position on the Trinity is simple. The Bible clearly teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each divine, each distinct, and yet there is just one God. The name of God used in Genesis 1:1, Elohim, is plural, and in making human beings God uses plural language: "Let us make man in our image.
We see these hints of plurality in the Old Testament because we look back with a perspective given by the New Testament revelation. We can see Jesus presented as One, who was with God and was God from eternity (John 1:1-3) We hear Jesus speak of the Father as the only "True God" and yet affirm, that "I and the Father are One"
In Ephesians 1, we see the roles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in salvation spelled out for us, with each person acknowledged as God.
God is one. While the New Testament calls for us to acknowledge Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God, the Old Testament undergirds the conviction that there is only one God.
Thus, we may not understand in our human wisdom, and no analogy seems capable enough to symbolize the three in oneness of God. However; we hear the testimony of the scriptures and we believe. We worship the Father, we worship the Son, and we worship the Holy Spirit. For these three are God, and these three are one.

Click to expand...

The Bible clearly teaches that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each divine, each distinct, and yet there is just one God.

Click to expand...

The bible never teaches or says “God the Son” It always says “Son of God”. Why was the Son called the Son? The bible tells us in Luke 1:35 “ And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

The Son of God is called the “Son of God” b/c The Holy Ghost is causing the conception. And the one that causes the conception is considered the Father. And the one being conceived in this case is the a Son. He is not called the Son of God b/c he is the second person in the Godhead.

If you can show me one place in the bible where the “Son of God” Is called “God the Son” I will show you where Satan Repented of his sins and now sits on the left hand of God.

The name of God used in Genesis 1:1, Elohim, is plural, and in making human beings God uses plural language: "Let us make man in our image.

Click to expand...

Elohim was used in the Hebrew more than any other word to describe God. Elohim is plural for Eloah. We can reach the point where we can understand that the word Elohim does not imply multiple persons. But signifies Gods Greatness, Goodness, and his many attributes.

After studying on this subject I have found that Elohim was used to describe the Golden Calf the Israelites worshiped in the wilderness. Elohim was used for singular pagan Gods such as Baalberith (judges 8:33). And Elohim was even applied to Jesus Christ in Psalms.

So surely Elohim does not imply that God has three separate Personalities but is the word that shows Gods multiple attributes.

and in making human beings God uses plural language: "Let us make man in our image

Click to expand...

Here we find that the Bible says that “God said”. So if God is a Trinity than Trinity said in unison “Let us make man in our image” so the Trinity was speaking to a fourth person. If we continue to read down one more verse we will find the explanation to verse 26. “So God created man in his [/b]OWN[/b] Image”. If you choose to say that God existed in more than one Person you have to face the difficulties in understanding other verses where the bible said The Lord Created the heavens alone and created the Earth by himself.(Isa 44)

So in concluding it is easy to understand that Gen 1:26 was not referring to three different people having a conversation.

We can see Jesus presented as One, who was with God and was God from eternity (John 1:1-3) We hear Jesus speak of the Father as the only "True God" and yet affirm, that "I and the Father are One"
In Ephesians 1, we see the roles of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in salvation spelled out for us, with each person acknowledged as God.

Click to expand...

Was the Son with God helping him create the worlds and helping him create man? Let me say that he was there, But he was not there as a separate person. The sonship began with the conception of the child. The “Son” was made of a woman (Gal:4)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In the Greek the word “Word” can mean “Plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer.” The reason why the bible does not say “In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God…” Is b/c the Son, God’s flesh or the incarnation of God did have a beginning. The Sons beginning was at conception. But since God knows no time, the “word” of the “Plan of God” as always been. So since the word or the plan always has been we can say that without that plan was not anything made that was made. The son is the redemptive plan and the redemptive plan has always been, but not as a second person, but as God himself.

Thus, we may not understand in our human wisdom, and no analogy seems capable enough to symbolize the three in oneness of God.

Click to expand...

The bible does say in 1 Tim 3:16 great is the mystery of godliness. It is a mystery that God can be both God and man at the same time but that is something that we all have to accept by faith. And as it as been said before, There has never been a mystery as to persons in the Godhead. The bible clearly states that there is only one God and this is easy for all to understand. The only mystery is how God could come in the Flesh and how Jesus could both be God and man.

Naomi's Rebuttal


Originally posted by ONENESS:


After studying on this subject I have found that Elohim was used to describe the Golden Calf the Israelites worshiped in the wilderness. Elohim was used for singular pagan Gods such as Baalberith (judges 8:33). And Elohim was even applied to Jesus Christ in Psalms.

Elohim is also used with some other purpose than to designate Scripture's God. The Old Testament speaks about "gods" of Egypt (Ex.12:12) and other nations (Deut.6:14,13:7,8;Josh,24:15;Judg6:10).
The images of the pagans are also referred to generically as their gods (Ex. 20:23, Jer. 16:20)
There are also irregular uses of Elohim in Psalm 8:5 where it has the sense of "judges" and 1 Samuel 28:13, where it simply means a "supernatural being." Most of the uses of Elohim in Psalm 8:5 as a reference to angels, often called: "mighty ones."
These uncommon uses of Elohim in no way diminish the significance of this majestic name of Scripture"s God.
(Larry Richards-Author)


So surely Elohim does not imply that God has three separate Personalities but is the word that shows Gods multiple attributes.

As I stated before:

The name of God used in Genesis 1:1, Elohim, is plural, and in making human beings God uses plural language: "Let us make man in our image."
I am not suggesting that God has three "personalities" I am suggesting that there is ONE GOD who is existing as three PERSONS, not personalities.



So if God is a Trinity than Trinity said in unison “Let us make man in our image” so the Trinity was speaking to a fourth person. If we continue to read down one more verse we will find the explanation to verse 26. “So God created man in his [/b]OWN[/b] Image”. If you choose to say that God existed in more than one Person you have to face the difficulties in understanding other verses where the bible said The Lord Created the heavens alone and created the Earth by himself.(Isa 44)

I am totally in agreement with the fact that God created by Himself. Three in one. Jesus was with God, and also was God. (Trinity)

So in concluding it is easy to understand that Gen 1:26 was not referring to three different people having a conversation.

Was the Son with God helping him create the worlds and helping him create man?

No, remember I said He was (with) God, and He was God. Therefore, He was also the creator.

Let me say that he was there, But he was not there as a separate person. The sonship began with the conception of the child. The “Son” was made of a woman (Gal:4)

Are you suggesting that the (Son) was a (creation) of the Father?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In the Greek the word “Word” can mean “Plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer.” The reason why the bible does not say “In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God…” Is b/c the Son, God’s flesh or the incarnation of God did have a beginning. The Sons beginning was at conception.

Galations 4:4-5 picks up the theme of preexistence-The fact that the one who came was the Son with the Father from eternity. The eternally existing Word took on flesh, becoming a true human being.




But since God knows no time, the “word” of the “Plan of God” as always been.

You just stated that the Word has always been.....Therefore, the "sonship" had no beginning.


So since the word or the plan always has been we can say that without that plan was not anything made that was made. The son is the redemptive plan and the redemptive plan has always been, but not as a second person, but as God himself.

How do you reconcile the (Word) being a plan, as opposed to a (Person) when verse 14 states that The Word became flesh and dwelt among us?


I am aware that the ancient Greek had two primary terms for "word." Rhema generally indicated a specific word or utterance. Logos, the word chosen by John, had a broader application. The phrase "word of God" focuses on communication. God has spoken, revealing both truth and Himself to us.
In calling Jesus the Word, John reminds us that the incarnation of Jesus so fully expresses who God is. Thus, the Word expresses God's vital self-expression through the totality of His involvement in His universe and in our lives. When we acknowledge the word of God, we affirm that scripture is God's revelation to us. But we also confess our belief that God has fully and perfectly expressed Himself in Jesus. Christ shows us who the Father is and who He wants to be for us.
Jesus is the second person in the Trinity, as well as God Himself.

The bible does say in 1 Tim 3:16 great is the mystery of godliness. It is a mystery that God can be both God and man at the same time but that is something that we all have to accept by faith. And as it as been said before, There has never been a mystery as to persons in the Godhead.
The bible clearly states that there is only one God and this is easy for all to understand. The only mystery is how God could come in the Flesh and how Jesus could both be God and man.

Yes! This is true. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.
In conclusion, The Apostle Paul distinguishes the role of each Person of the Godhead in providing salvation. Ephesians 1
The role of the Son to redeem the lost by dying for them (vv.7-12)
The Holy Spirit to take up residence in believers as the guarantee of their ultimate salvation (vv. 13,14).
Verses 3-6 summarize the role of God the Father.

It is clear that the Father is the One who planned, determined, chose, and willed the salvation of all believers. He is the one that designed the plan of salvation, while the Son and the Spirit executed it.

While the Trinity remains a mystery that we are unable to fathom, it is also a reality clearly taught in the New Testament. It is truth that leads us to consider separately the names and titles of each Person of the Godhead.

Originally posted by Naomi:
Naomi's Rebuttal


Originally posted by ONENESS:


After studying on this subject I have found that Elohim was used to describe the Golden Calf the Israelites worshiped in the wilderness. Elohim was used for singular pagan Gods such as Baalberith (judges 8:33). And Elohim was even applied to Jesus Christ in Psalms.

Elohim is also used with some other purpose than to designate Scripture's God. The Old Testament speaks about "gods" of Egypt (Ex.12:12) and other nations (Deut.6:14,13:7,8;Josh,24:15;Judg6:10).
The images of the pagans are also referred to generically as their gods (Ex. 20:23, Jer. 16:20)
There are also irregular uses of Elohim in Psalm 8:5 where it has the sense of "judges" and 1 Samuel 28:13, where it simply means a "supernatural being." Most of the uses of Elohim in Psalm 8:5 as a reference to angels, often called: "mighty ones."
These uncommon uses of Elohim in no way diminish the significance of this majestic name of Scripture"s God.
(Larry Richards-Author)


So surely Elohim does not imply that God has three separate Personalities but is the word that shows Gods multiple attributes.

As I stated before:

The name of God used in Genesis 1:1, Elohim, is plural, and in making human beings God uses plural language: "Let us make man in our image."
I am not suggesting that God has three "personalities" I am suggesting that there is ONE GOD who is existing as three PERSONS, not personalities.



So if God is a Trinity than Trinity said in unison “Let us make man in our image” so the Trinity was speaking to a fourth person. If we continue to read down one more verse we will find the explanation to verse 26. “So God created man in his OWN[/b] Image”. If you choose to say that God existed in more than one Person you have to face the difficulties in understanding other verses where the bible said The Lord Created the heavens alone and created the Earth by himself.(Isa 44)

I am totally in agreement with the fact that God created by Himself. Three in one. Jesus was with God, and also was God. (Trinity)

So in concluding it is easy to understand that Gen 1:26 was not referring to three different people having a conversation.

Was the Son with God helping him create the worlds and helping him create man?

No, remember I said He was (with) God, and He was God. Therefore, He was also the creator.

Let me say that he was there, But he was not there as a separate person. The sonship began with the conception of the child. The “Son” was made of a woman (Gal:4)

Are you suggesting that the (Son) was a (creation) of the Father?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In the Greek the word “Word” can mean “Plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer.” The reason why the bible does not say “In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God…” Is b/c the Son, God’s flesh or the incarnation of God did have a beginning. The Sons beginning was at conception.

Galations 4:4-5 picks up the theme of preexistence-The fact that the one who came was the Son with the Father from eternity. The eternally existing Word took on flesh, becoming a true human being.




But since God knows no time, the “word” of the “Plan of God” as always been.

You just stated that the Word has always been.....Therefore, the "sonship" had no beginning.


So since the word or the plan always has been we can say that without that plan was not anything made that was made. The son is the redemptive plan and the redemptive plan has always been, but not as a second person, but as God himself.

How do you reconcile the (Word) being a plan, as opposed to a (Person) when verse 14 states that The Word became flesh and dwelt among us?


I am aware that the ancient Greek had two primary terms for "word." Rhema generally indicated a specific word or utterance. Logos, the word chosen by John, had a broader application. The phrase "word of God" focuses on communication. God has spoken, revealing both truth and Himself to us.
In calling Jesus the Word, John reminds us that the incarnation of Jesus so fully expresses who God is. Thus, the Word expresses God's vital self-expression through the totality of His involvement in His universe and in our lives. When we acknowledge the word of God, we affirm that scripture is God's revelation to us. But we also confess our belief that God has fully and perfectly expressed Himself in Jesus. Christ shows us who the Father is and who He wants to be for us.
Jesus is the second person in the Trinity, as well as God Himself.

The bible does say in 1 Tim 3:16 great is the mystery of godliness. It is a mystery that God can be both God and man at the same time but that is something that we all have to accept by faith. And as it as been said before, There has never been a mystery as to persons in the Godhead.
The bible clearly states that there is only one God and this is easy for all to understand. The only mystery is how God could come in the Flesh and how Jesus could both be God and man.

Yes! This is true. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.
In conclusion, The Apostle Paul distinguishes the role of each Person of the Godhead in providing salvation. Ephesians 1
The role of the Son to redeem the lost by dying for them (vv.7-12)
The Holy Spirit to take up residence in believers as the guarantee of their ultimate salvation (vv. 13,14).
Verses 3-6 summarize the role of God the Father.

It is clear that the Father is the One who planned, determined, chose, and willed the salvation of all believers. He is the one that designed the plan of salvation, while the Son and the Spirit executed it.

While the Trinity remains a mystery that we are unable to fathom, it is also a reality clearly taught in the New Testament. It is truth that leads us to consider separately the names and titles of each Person of the Godhead.

[/b]

Click to expand...

I am suggesting that there is ONE GOD who is existing as three PERSONS, not personalities.

Click to expand...

But if you have a seperate Person than you have a seperate personality. And you said your self at the closeing of your rebuttle that God is devided in Three persons, each person has there own role, so that would leave one to beleive that Each one has a seperate mind and will.

My position on the other hand states that God can do all these things and hold these offices at the same time without haveing to be seperated. He was the Father in creation, The Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit that lives inside of us today.

No, remember I said He was (with) God, and He was God. Therefore, He was also the creator.

Click to expand...

Jesus was the creator, but not as another person. The Word was with God in the beginning as a plan, not a "Son" or a "seperate person"

How do you reconcile the (Word) being a plan, as opposed to a (Person) when verse 14 states that The Word became flesh and dwelt among us?

Click to expand...

B/c "Word" in Greek means Logos and Logos means

1) of speech
1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said
1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a
weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim

You just stated that the Word has always been.....Therefore, the "sonship" had no beginning

Click to expand...

The Word never had a beginning, The word was God remember? But the sonship did not start and the role of the "Son of God" or "The man" or "The flesh" did have a beginning. And that moment was at conception. The Son of God is not a separate Person in the Godhead. The Son is the image of the invisible God and the express image of his(Gods) Person.

Men had no way of seeing the invisible God, So God created himself a body and called it his Son. God the Father, came down himself in the flesh as the Son of God.

Jesus is the second person in the Trinity, as well as God Himself.[/

Click to expand...

Jesus is God himself. I would not say that he is a second person. Jesus said in revelation, that I am the First and the Last.

It is clear that the Father is the One who planned, determined, chose, and willed the salvation of all believers. He is the one that designed the plan of salvation, while the Son and the Spirit executed it.

Click to expand...

And again, if this were true than it would be valid to say that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost had seperated minds, Wills, bodies, ect.

Our little debate is sinking to the bottom of the other discussions.

Just wanted to keep it up at the top.

Cant wait to here your replys Naomi, If you want you can start the questions after your second rebuttle.

Godbless

Naomi, you still alive. I was looking forward to seeing what you had to say this morning when i got in my office. Cant wait to see what you have to say

God bless

Brian

oneness: But if you have a seperate Person than you have a seperate personality. And you said your self at the closeing of your rebuttle that God is devided in Three persons, each person has there own role, so that would leave one to beleive that Each one has a seperate mind and will.

Naomi:

Did Jesus have a separate will?
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if Thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but , Thine be done.

The Holy Spirit has a will also : 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

Oneness: Jesus was the creator, but not as another person. The Word was with God in the beginning as a plan, not a "Son" or a "seperate person"

Naomi:

Why would God refer to a plan by using the pronoun "us?" Also, how would a plan become flesh? It wasn't an "it", it was a "who" which became a "person" who "pre-existed" "with" God, as well as God Himself.

Oneness: Men had no way of seeing the invisible God, So God created himself a body and called it his Son. God the Father, came down himself in the flesh as the Son of God.

Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?
Did Jesus lie about this?

Oneness: Jesus is God himself. I would not say that he is a second person. Jesus said in revelation, that I am the First and the Last.

True! He is the First and the Last! He is God. He is also the second person in the Trinity. Three
persons in one God.

Oneness: And again, if this were true than it would be valid to say that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost had seperated minds, Wills, bodies, ect.

A person exists and has identity.
A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
This precludes the condition of being unconscious.
A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.
A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.
A person possesses a will.
A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
Persons do not need to have bodies.
God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).

*Information by CARM Ministries*

Naomi

oneness: But if you have a seperate Person than you have a seperate personality. And you said your self at the closeing of your rebuttle that God is devided in Three persons, each person has there own role, so that would leave one to beleive that Each one has a seperate mind and will.

Naomi:

Did Jesus have a separate will?
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if Thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but , Thine be done.

The Holy Spirit has a will also : 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

Oneness: Jesus was the creator, but not as another person. The Word was with God in the beginning as a plan, not a "Son" or a "seperate person"

Naomi:

Why would God refer to a plan by using the pronoun "us?" Also, how would a plan become flesh? It wasn't an "it", it was a "who" which became a "person" who "pre-existed" "with" God, as well as God Himself.

Oneness: Men had no way of seeing the invisible God, So God created himself a body and called it his Son. God the Father, came down himself in the flesh as the Son of God.

Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?
Did Jesus lie about this?

Oneness: Jesus is God himself. I would not say that he is a second person. Jesus said in revelation, that I am the First and the Last.

True! He is the First and the Last! He is God. He is also the second person in the Trinity. Three
persons in one God.

Oneness: And again, if this were true than it would be valid to say that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost had seperated minds, Wills, bodies, ect.

A person exists and has identity.
A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
This precludes the condition of being unconscious.
A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.
A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.
A person possesses a will.
A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
Persons do not need to have bodies.
God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).

*Information by CARM Ministries*

Did Jesus have a separate will?
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if Thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but , Thine be done.

Click to expand...

Jesus did say that, but remember Jesus had dual natures. He was man and God. What you are referring to here in Luke 22 is the “Man” crying out.

The Holy Spirit has a will also : 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

Click to expand...

Question: You say that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate People. John 4 tells us that God is a Spirit. Which person is this referring to here? Would you say that this is saying that The Father is Spirit, The Son is Spirit, or the Holy Spirit is Spirit?

Why would God refer to a plan by using the pronoun "us?" Also, how would a plan become flesh? It wasn't an "it", it was a "who" which became a "person" who "pre-existed" "with" God, as well as God Himself.

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Why do you interpret this to mean that God is talking to three other people?

The word logos in the Greek means a plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer. The Plan can become flesh b/c the incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. And when the fullness of time came, God put that plan into action by embodying his spirit in flesh. And we know that to be the Son of God, not another person of God.

Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?
Did Jesus lie about this?

Click to expand...

Is the Father a Spirit? Yes he is. Who can see a Spirit? The only way for us to see the Father is if he manifests himself in a way for us to see him. There is ample proof in the bible to prove that the Father manifested himself in the Person and Name of Jesus Christ. He did not manifest himself through the second person in the Godhead. Rather he manifested himself in Flesh (known to be the son) as the One True God

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• Isa 9:6 calls Jesus the everlasting Father </font>
• Colossians 2:9 tells us that all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The father is included in the Godhead, so the Father dwells in Jesus. </font>
• Jesus taught that he was the Father. John 8:19 The Pharisees asked Jesus “Where is thy Father? Jesus said you don’t know me or my father. If you would have known me you would have known my father also and he went on to say in Verse 24 if you believe not that I am he you shall die in your sins. </font>
• John 14 the question was asked “where are you going and how can we know the way?” Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the father but by me. If ye had known me ye should have known my father also and from hence forth ye know him AND HAVE SEEN HIM </font>
• John 14 the question was asked “Lord, show us the Father and it sufficeth us?” And Jesus said” Have I been so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me Phillip? He that hast seen me has seen the Father. And how sayest thou then show us the Father? </font>
• And also in Rev 6 Jesus said that he would become the father to all over comers. </font>

e is the First and the Last! He is God. He is also the second person in the Trinity. Three persons in one God.

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Is the Son subordinate to the Father? If you say that Son dwells in Heaven, The Holy ghost dwells in heaven and the Father dwells in heaven and that the Father is first and Last and the Son is first and Last and the Holy Spirit is first and Last could you please explain to me how you do not have three different People, Three different Gods etc?
God bless

[ August 23, 2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

Oneness:

Jesus did say that, but remember Jesus had dual natures. He was man and God. What you are referring to here in Luke 22 is the “Man” crying out.

Naomi:
Jesus was crying out to "Himself?"

Oneness:

Question: You say that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate People. John 4 tells us that God is a Spirit. Which person is this referring to here? Would you say that this is saying that The Father is Spirit, The Son is Spirit, or the Holy Spirit is Spirit?

Naomi:

I say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One . The Trinitarian doctrine does not deny the oneness of God. It only denies a certain kind of oneness. We are not worshipping three gods. We worship one God. Such oneness does not conflict with the idea of three perfect persons. Such oneness is necessary in a perfect society. There can be no discord in a perfect society. God must be one, socially one. To say that we are following three gods is erroneus. Do not mix up the "social" oneness with the "numerical" oneness.

Oneness:
The word logos in the Greek means a plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer. The Plan can become flesh b/c the incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. And when the fullness of time came, God put that plan into action by embodying his spirit in flesh. And we know that to be the Son of God, not another person of God.

Naomi:
The Word was Jesus. The Word was more than a plan. In John 14, we see that The Word becomes flesh and dwells among us. We beheld HIS Glory. Jesus is the Eternal Word. HE (Jesus) was in the beginning (with) God. All things were made (through) Him...etc.

Oneness:

If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?

Naomi:

They were seeing Jesus.

Oneness:
Is the Father a Spirit? Yes he is. Who can see a Spirit? The only way for us to see the Father is if he manifests himself in a way for us to see him. There is ample proof in the bible to prove that the Father manifested himself in the Person and Name of Jesus Christ.

Naomi:

There is ample proof to prove in the bible that Jesus claimed to be God and was God. There is also ample proof that Jesus was a person, as you yourself have proven this to be true. Allow me to illustrate how you have accomplished this:

Oneness:
Colossians 2:9 tells us that all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus.

Naomi:
By these words is shown a distinction of the natures.
This word "dwelleth" notes out to us the joining together of those natures, so that God and man, is one Christ.
These words declare that the perfect Godhead is in Christ.

Oneness:

The father is included in the Godhead, so the Father dwells in Jesus.

Naomi:
Yes! The Father is included in the "Godhead" as the First person in the Trinity.

Oneness:

John 8:19 The Pharisees asked Jesus “Where is thy Father? Jesus said you don’t know me or my father. If you would have known me you would have known my father

Naomi:
See the separation here? (You don't know me or my Father.)

Oneness: No man comes to the father but by me.

Naomi:
See, another distinction in persons.
We are in agreement that Jesus claimed to be God and was God. This goes back to my illustration of "Social Oneness."

Oneness:
Is the Son subordinate to the Father?

Naomi:
Subordinate-definition: 1. Contingent on another. 2. Subordinate. 3. Relying on or requiring the aid of another for support: dependent children.

Yes! Jesus took on human form.
Hebrews 2:7- He was made a little lower than the angels.
The Father was "greater" than He was.
Not My will, but Thine be done.
Jesus was "relying" upon the Father, as He took on human form. Yet at the same time He was God.
He referred to being a "distinct person" while at the same time, making claims of being God.

Oneness:
If you say that Son dwells in Heaven, The Holy ghost dwells in heaven and the Father dwells in heaven and that the Father is first and Last and the Son is first and Last and the Holy Spirit is first and Last could you please explain to me how you do not have three different People, Three different Gods etc?
God bless

Naomi:
Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world."

He also said
"I will send you "another."
He did not say He was coming back in another "form" He said He was sending another. Yet He said He would be with us always.
This makes total sense for Him to say this if we understand the Trinity. One God, in three persons. Not three gods. But, One God.

Thus, I guess my question to you would be this:
It appears that we are both viewing God as being one. Am I to understand that in your view, you have taken out God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, to be: Jesus the Father, Jesus the Son and Jesus the Holy Spirit? If so, can you give specific scriptures to prove this?

Thanks
Naomi

BTW....Do we make our closing statements in the next reply?

Thus, I guess my question to you would be this:
It appears that we are both viewing God as being one. Am I to understand that in your view, you have taken out God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, to be: Jesus the Father, Jesus the Son and Jesus the Holy Spirit? If so, can you give specific scriptures to prove this?

Click to expand...

Naomi, first we need to understand that the terms you are using are never found in the bible. The bible never states God the Son, or God the Holy Ghost or Spirit.

THe bible always refers to The son, as the "Son of God" I told you earlier why the "Son" is called the "Son" Jesus referrs to The Father as the "Father" b/c the Holy Ghost caused the conception. And the one that causes the conception is the Father.

Surely none of us beleive that the humanity of Jesus is eternal? John 3:16 says that God gave his only begotten son. But alot of people like to use the phrase the Eternal Son. And I would like to point out that the bible never uses this phrase either. The word begotten means procreate, to father, So begotten represents a certain point in time. As I have said before it is the point at which conception begins. So the the person that causes the conception must come before the begotten. So that in its self shows us that the Son was not with God in the beginning as a seperate Person. The Son of God had a beginning and that beginning took place at conception.

Jesus did exist in the begining but not as the Son. We all should have the understanding that the eternal Spirit of Jesus is none other than the Father himself.

Naomi what I am trying to say is that our creator loved us so much that he did not send another person to come down here and die for us. I am saying our creator loved us so much that he came down here himself in the form of a human and paied the price for our sins. (1 John:3:16)

And this is what it all boils down to. In order for us to carry out His instructions we must first learn who he is. Jesus told his deciples to Go and baptize in the Name of the Father, and of The Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

We find the Apostles understood that and fullfilled that when they were obidient in the book of Acts and baptized in the only Name given among men under heaven where by we could find salvation. That Name is Jesus.

Try not to think that we deny the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost b/c we dont. We just recognize the Name to be Jesus. As David Bernard said "When we pray we pray our Father, when the Holy Spirit is moveing we dont say the Father is moving b/c that implys that we are looking for some personage. But we say the HOly Spirit is moving here b/c it is the invisible power of the one true God."

When we praise the Name of Jesus we are praising the one true God who created the Worlds all by him self.

God bless