Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

Oneness:
The bible never states God the Son, or God the Holy Ghost or Spirit.

Naomi:
The bible clearly states that the Son (Jesus) is God. The bible also shows us that the Holy Spirit is God, and we know The Father is God. All three claimed to be God.

Oneness:
Surely none of us beleive that the humanity of Jesus is eternal? John 3:16 says that God gave his only begotten son. But alot of people like to use the phrase the Eternal Son. And I would like to point out that the bible never uses this phrase either. The word begotten means procreate, to father, So begotten represents a certain point in time. As I have said before it is the point at which conception begins. So the the person that causes the conception must come before the begotten. So that in its self shows us that the Son was not with God in the beginning as a seperate Person. The Son of God had a beginning and that beginning took place at conception.

Naomi:
Oneness, You are doing exactly what the Greek Philosophers did! When John stated that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God," He was making a clear statement about Christs Deity. He was proclaiming that Jesus was (God) and that Jesus was (with) God in the beginning. Unless you are reading "The New World Translation" this is very clear. Coupled with God saying "Let us create man in our image. As well as Jesus saying, "I am going to the Father, yet I am sending another (Holy Spirit). Makes the Trinity very clear and concise.

Oneness

Naomi what I am trying to say is that our creator loved us so much that he did not send another person to come down here and die for us. I am saying our creator loved us so much that he came down here himself in the form of a human and paied the price for our sins. (1 John:3:16)

Naomi:
Exactly! God did it Himself. Jesus is God. There is only one God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up one God. The Godhead, The Trinity. Difficult to explain, but it is truth!

Oneness:

And this is what it all boils down to. In order for us to carry out His instructions we must first learn who he is.

Naomi:

This is so very true! We must understand who Jesus is.

Jesus told his deciples to Go and baptize in the Name of the Father, and of The Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

We find the Apostles understood that and fullfilled that when they were obidient in the book of Acts and baptized in the only Name given among men under heaven where by we could find salvation. That Name is Jesus.

Try not to think that we deny the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost b/c we dont. We just recognize the Name to be Jesus.

Naomi:
The Name above all names is Jesus. By no other name are we saved. The Father Son and Holy Spirit is The Trinity, and the (name) is God. One God in three persons. Jesus said He was going to be with the Father. He left us the Comforter, The Holy Spirit. He made a distinction of the three. Yet all are God.

As David Bernard said "When we pray we pray our Father, when the Holy Spirit is moveing we dont say the Father is moving b/c that implys that we are looking for some personage. But we say the HOly Spirit is moving here b/c it is the invisible power of the one true God."

Naomi:
No, The Holy Spirit is not just some invisible power. The Holy Spirit is not an "Active Force" as the JW'S contend. The Holy Spirit is God. It is true that we do not say, "The Father" is moving, we say "The Holy Spirit is moving." The same thing as "God is moving." An "invisible power" does not dwell inside us, The Holy Spirit dwells within us.

Oneness:

When we praise the Name of Jesus we are praising the one true God who created the Worlds all by him self.

Naomi:
Exactly!

My closing statement to follow!

 

Closing Statement

There is but one name we are saved, and that is the name of Jesus. Many people talk about "Jesus"
and claim to know who He is. We must know who the real Jesus is. Is He the Jesus of the JW's? Is He the Jesus of the Mormons? Satans brother? Is He the Jesus of the Muslim's? A prophet, a good man. Is He the "sugar daddy" who wants you to have whatever your heart desires as in the W.O.F. movement?
Is He a lunatic? a liar? Or is He God? Is Jesus the second Person in the Trinity?
The day of Pentecost had come! As they waited in the upper room, tongues of fire had descended upon them and they were moved by extra ordinary experiences. They spoke and understood languages they had never learned. The dead were raised. Incurables were healed. Nothing less than God could explain Pentecost. Was this new Spirit simply a work of the Father? Or was it simply the spirit of their risen Lord? Or was this actually Someone sent by the Father as Jesus had promised? Would Jesus have said "Another?" if He had meant that He Himself was going to return in a different form? Could it be as their experience testified that there were three Divine Beings, all of them somehow different, and yet all of them somehow one?
Almost always the reason for the attack on the Trinity has been a false sense of the importance of the numerical oneness of God.
1 John 5:7 states: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The Father, The Word (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus was the Word that became flesh.
These three are one.
In 1 Peter 1:2 we can see the distinction of three in the Godhead
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.
As Trinitarians, we do not serve three gods. We make claim that there is One God.
Will our finite minds be able to understand this concept. Probably not. Yet, across most mainline denominations, this is an accepted view of who God is.
Why take time to explore this? Because I believe that in most cases where one denies the Trinity, there are often other beliefs they have that are not scriptural. I believe it is very important to study the scriptures and know who Jesus is for ourselves. This is extremely important in light of the truth that by no other name are we saved.

Thank you Oneness. You have been kind and gracious, and I appreciate your input here.
Naomi

 

The thread has remained public. Any member has been able to post at any time.

 

Now that it is officially open, I have a few questions I would like to ask.

Oneness:

You stated what you believed it was not referring to, but you never did tell us what it was referring to.

What did this mean? Please show scriptural evidence to support your answer.

 

I do apologize for not responding earlier but I was not around to see the request in time.

I asked for scriptural support, so a quote from scripture would be more then welcome. I don't want to read speculation.

Any argument starting with the words "It could be" is not a sound argument, for you are confessing that you are unsure.

As for the possibility of angels, do you have any evidence that we are made in their image?

Again, could be according to whom? Do you have scripture to support this theory?

The passage of Daniel does not support your claim. Daniel says, "now we will interpret it to the king." Do you think Daniel was interpreting these dreams solely on his own without the power of God? We see there is no reason why Daniel could not say "we" for the dream was being interpreted by God through the mouth of Daniel. That would make "we" a true statement.

Kings may say "we" do it, but they as King represent an entire kingdom that they rule. In the case of God in Genesis, whomever he was addressing had to be in the same image, which limits this explanation.

When you read the text and see how God revealed himself beginning with even Genesis, you don't have to say "it could be", you don't have to speculate scripture away.

We see how the writers that were inspired by God often used the word God to represent the Father when speaking within the trinity.

Example: Eph 6:23 "Peace to the brothers, and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

It reads beautifully and in unison with the rest of scripture to realize that God the Father was speaking within the trinity, not outside of it.

This is the only way one can reconcile Gen 1:26 with Gen 1:27. Both are true statements without any "It could be's."

~Lorelei

 

Ready for another question yet?

~Lorelei

 

Hi Lorilei and Oneness,
Good questions Lorilei! How is your daughter? I have been praying for you !
Oneness,
You never made any comments on my closing statement. What are your thoughts?
Thanks,
Naomi

 

"The mystery of godliness" is man is as God once was, God is as man can become! "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Hebrews 12:9 states we are the "offspring" of God......our spirits came from God and will return to God......John 3:13
John 6:38, 51, 62 John 16:27-30 John 17:3-5
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Two distinct personages described in these scriptures........why when we have father's of our flesh, whose image we sometimes resemble, and the separatness between father and son on earth is self evident, is it so hard to accept the Father and the Son, as spoken of in the scripture as being separate? Why the need to separate the identifying names if they be not as the scripture states, separate and apart.
And what about the scriptures that say we must become as one with the Savior.......that means simply, to me, that we gain and take upon ourselves, through our mortal trials and tribulations; as we conquer and endure them well,learning from them the lessons of godliness, we become one in our attitudes, and can see more clearly HIs mind and will!
The unity in purpose of the Godhead, is clearly understood......but doctrine of the 3-in-1 god, is man-made at the Council of Nicea, without the benefit of revelation or divine direction, which was readily admitted, yet this false teaching has persisted through centuries!
Revelations 12:7-12 gives a glimpse into the mystery of godliness.....as does the incident of creation in the Garden of Eden! Adam, the first man was spiritual and enjoyed the presence of God.......transgression brought about mortality....or corruptability of our bodies! Adam was given the right to choose for himself.....and God knew the outcome and was prepared for it! He taught Adam the gospel.....the law of sacrifice for sin, in the similitude of the ultimate sacrifice for sin that was yet future! Adam was cast from the presence of God, as we are today! "As in Adam all die, even so, in Christ shall all be made alive." We can regain the presence of God through the gospel of Jesus Christ and His redeeming sacrifice for sin; who conquered the grave giving hope to ALL or a resurrection; being rescued from the grave! He showed the path of righteousness we must follow to regain His presence......faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and the confirring of the Gift of the Holy Ghost by those in authority! Once the ordinances of the gospel are properly administered and our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life, then we can go on to that perfection, as we learn obedience to His commandments!

 

Lookbeyond, you've have completely confused me! From the quotes above, you sound of the Trinity. In the next portion of you post you seem to denounce the 3-in-1 God doctrine. (three persons in one god) Then you sound as though you are Oneness.

Now the "biggy".......what are you besides Mormon?

MEE

 

Following your logic that would mean that God is not a spirit, because we are not a spirit. However, because it does not say that man is a complete mirror image it still fits in trinitarian beliefs because we are only an image of the part of God that he wished to reveal.

You keep harping on this strawman argument and I keep telling you it doesn't stand up to the light of day. Until you can prove beyond a doubt that the apostles never said in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, your argument will fall on deaf ears.

If the Holy Spirit was not trying to relay the existance of the Trinity then why would it have appeared? One does not go about saying " My uncle and the Chief of police, John Doe." If you do then it is just bad grammer and very confusing as to its meaning. And God made it quite clear that He is not the author of confusion.

 

Oneness,

You still have not answered the question. It isn't explained by the verse that says God made man in HIS image. The verse above it STILL says US and OUR. You can't say that one verse negates the other.

Stop repeating yourself and telling me what it does NOT mean and tell me what it does say.

What did US and OUR mean?

Since it is obvious you do not know (considering your first reply was nothing but a bunch of it could bes and you clearly haven't answered it here) Can we go on to the next question?

~Lorelei

 

I am sorry, I assumed you read my previous post.

Whether or not you agree with this explanation is not the issue. The issue is that I have an explanation (A biblical one at that) and you have none.

~Lorelei

 

For my next question:

What attributes did the golden calf have?

~Lorelei