Originally posted by Chemnitz:
As usual Sabin is grasping at straws.
Chemnitz, "The Robert A. Sabin" doesn't grasp at straws! He does know the 'NAME' of his God.
The famous Billy Graham says the Trinity can't be explained.
Quote by Billy Graham:
The Bible shows very clearly that there is only one God, and yet that there are three personal distinctions in His complex nature, traditionally referred to as "three Persons in the god head."--God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each is distinct from the others but never acts independently. They are one in nature and purpose. This mystery is called the doctrine of the Trinity, though that term is not used in the Bible. The teaching, however, is present in seed form in the OT and is revealed explicitly in the NT.
Our finite minds cannot understand or explain this mystery of God, which is nevertheless a fact. We must accept the truths found in the Word of God by faith even though we ourselves cannot comprehend them fully.
It is really not surprising that the infinite God should be complex in His nature beyond the ability of finite humans to comprehend! This doctrine is absoulutely essential to NT Christianity. Theologians have pointed out that if it were not true, the Bible would be unreliable, Christ would not be divine, and His death on the cross would not atone for our sins,
being merely the death of a martyr.
Since "The Great Billy Graham" can't explain the
doctrine of the Trinity and you are a
Trinitarian, possibly you could tell the names of your gods? After all, you say they are three persons that makes up "one god?"
MEE
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Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate
- Thread starter ONENESS
- Start date
If anyone is interested in "the Most Magnificent Name, The Name jesus" contact the link below!
http://www.whoisjesus.com/nameofJesus.html
Very interesting!
MEE
[ September 10, 2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: MEE ]
http://www.whoisjesus.com/nameofJesus.html
Very interesting!
MEE
[ September 10, 2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: MEE ]
I can see that. Sorry, but the fact that my answer was biblical and the fact that you had absolutely no answer, still is and will be the focus.
So tell me what did God mean when he said us and our? If you have no answer, then drop it and move on.
As do the Oneness Pentecostals. They not only take verses out of context, they expect you to ignore important passages in the Bible and just take their word for it.
Don't be so quick to criticize when it is your interpretation that expects us to take your word for it when tough scriptures come into play.
That is your opinion, not fact. The fact still remains, I have an answer and you have none.
Ok, in instance one, you admitted that you had no answer.
You have not responded at all to the question that asks whether Jesus is the name of God or an attribute of God. Did you miss that post altogether?
What questions are your referring to. The one where you asked me several times when in fact, I had answered it the very first time it was asked?
This conversation is indeed over if this is your attitude. You do this in every conversation. You turn the discussion around always making us defend our view, yet you never answer the questions that really shed light on your theology. If you can't handle the tough questions, then stay out of the discussion. If you are going to start a debate on the topic, then at least have the coutresy to answer as well as ask questions.
That is because your side is seriously flawed. The fact that you can not answer many of the tough questions that we ask confirms this very aspect. I am sorry, my Bible doesn't tell me to try and see every man's side. My Bible says there is but one gospel and we are to defend it boldly without shame. If you want me to see your side, then prove it without expecting me to just accept that there are many questions that your belief simply can not answer.
In debates, there is usually a time for a rebuttal. If you didn't want it opened up to the public to be able to do so, then why did you ask for it to be done?
The reason we rebut what you have to say is because it needs to be done.
Now do tell me, why do you keep rebutting our statements? Surely it isn't because you agree with us! You are just mad that our rebuttals prove seriously flaws with your theology. To be mad at someone for rebutting something when they are in a debate is just plain silly.
So in debates one is expected to admit that he doesn't know the material well enough to even bother debating it in the first place?
Do I understand everything? NO. Do I need to understand everything before I can make a fair judgement that your arguments are lacking and not biblical? NO.
When backed into a corner, it is always the same cry. Well, I don't really know, I will study it further. Then you keep on arguing anyway. The problem is, you really don't study it further. You come back with another thread with the same arguments as before, still not being able to answer the questions you couldn't answer before.
If you need to study it further, then by all means do so. It would be great if the next time you discussed this issue you could show scripturally what Gen 1:26 means. It would be great how if you could explain how there are two witnesses to Christ if Christ and the Father are not separate. We would love to finally hear some answers.
~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]
Lorelie, as Chemitz would say, "You are grasping at straws" with your explination on what the "Us" is referring to. It makes NO since.
I will retract my previous statement since you cant understand what I was saying. I was trying to give you a little bit of credit for trying to use the bible. NOt that it supported what you said.
So your answer is not biblical
NOw please tell me who the trinity was speaking to in Gen 1:26.
Either except the fact that you dont know and say so, or give me the forth person who the trinity was speaking to.
I am not sure what it is referring to. Although biblicaly I have given you several ideas on which it could be referring to. But on the other hand I have given you enough proof that would take away from the fact of "Persons". There is NO SUCH THING. You cant proove it biblically and you cant proove it theoretically ..
No what still remains is that you have one possibility that cant be reasoned with the rest of scripture. And I have given you about 4 that can.
Lets get past the baby stuff Lorelei. Its just childish to say "Im not going to answer your question b/c you did not answer mine."
My answer was I dont have an answer YET.
So now that we are sucking thumbs and begging mommy for milk. What are your answers?
Jesus is the Name of God.
IM not going to argue with you so i will say this. If you have asked me a question, unless I just get carried away talking about something else and forget to answer it Im sorry. That is what we call a mistake.
And if i dont know the answer I will tell you b/c i dont know everything. But one thing I do know is that you cant prove there is a Trinity.
Yes the bible says there is but one Gospel. So what is it? Is it a Trinity? Is it three people up there haveing a conversation? What is it, please explain to me what the Gospel is.
In a nut shell the Gospel is the Death burial and ressurection of our Lord. Its not that God loved us so much that he sent another person to come die for us. What kind of love is that? Its that he loved us so much that he came down here and died for us himself. (I John 3:16, John 3:16)
The bible says that we need to obey the Gospel or we will be punished. How do we obey it Lorelie? I commend you for standing up for your Gospel, but its our lords Gospel that you should stand up for.
God bless
[ September 11, 2002, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
Interesting since your prooftext says He sent His Son. Jn 3:16-21 "16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.”
and just after the first prooftext is says that the one commandment is that we believe in His Son. 1 Jn 3:20-23 "20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us." If they were the same person why didn't He command us to believe in Him instead of telling us to believe in His son?
Dualhunter
New Member
~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]And you cant even tell me who the trinity is talking to.
What a bummer</font>[/QUOTE]You don't seem to understand the way that God often creates things. He speaks and it is done, it doesn't matter who is listening, His Word is always power.
~Lorelei</font>[/QUOTE]Do you want me to reply to anything?
You interpret that the "Father" talking to the Son. It does not say the Father, and it does not say the son. It say GOD said. Now If God is a Trinity than the trinity was speaking to some fourth person.
And I am still waiting on you to tell me who that fouth person was.
Interesting since your prooftext says He sent His Son. Jn 3:16-21 "16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.”
and just after the first prooftext is says that the one commandment is that we believe in His Son. 1 Jn 3:20-23 "20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us." If they were the same person why didn't He command us to believe in Him instead of telling us to believe in His son?</font>[/QUOTE]
You misquoted John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Do you believe the Son was eternally begotten?
I John 3:16 and John 3:16 are telling us the exact same thing. The exact same person came down on Earth as a Man and Gave his life for our sins. He did not come down as a seperate Person but he came down and revealed him self through the flesh, which is called the Son of God.
I have been waiting for you to respond to these verses for quite some time now.
Let's start with this one. If Jesus IS the Father, then how can there be two witnesses to Christ? The law says there must be two witnesses (not one witness with two attributes) and Christ said that he was one witness and his Father was the other.
So, is there or is there not a valid witness to Christ? If not, then Christ didn't fulfill the law. If so, you must admit that Christ is not the Father.
We can get to the rest of the verses later. As Chemnitz said, the other question has been answered more then once. I would like to point out that you still have not offered one yourself. (Speculation does not count, for it isn't an answer, it is a guess)
~Lorelei
There was no fourth person how many times do you need to be told that. They were conversing to each other.
BTW in Jn 17 it is the Son praying to the Father.</font>[/QUOTE]Chemitz, how do you know they were talking to each other? The bible said that God created the Heaves Alone
Your definition of God is a Trinity. One God but three Persons.
So if "God" said Let "Us" make man in Our image, than the three person God was talking to someone else. There was someone besides God that was there.
So please tell me who the forth person was.
I didn't misquote anything I copy pasted straight from the ESV online.
Which bible are you reading??? It quite clearly states that God sent his Son. Not sent a flesh suit, now you have claimed that the person who died on the cross isn't God and now there is no perfect sacrifice according to you.
Indeed, if they were not talking to each other then who was the us in that sentence? God did create the heavens alone so who are you suggesting was there with God? Whose image other then God's do you say we are made in? How can you come to that conclusion when keeping Genesis 1:26 in mind?
Are you trying to say that this verse is in error? Are you questioning the scriptures because they don't support your doctrine?
~Lorelei
Which bible are you reading??? It quite clearly states that God sent his Son. Not sent a flesh suit, now you have claimed that the person who died on the cross isn't God and now there is no perfect sacrifice according to you.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Chemnitz, I thought you finally understood and then you go and mix it up again.
Why can't you all see that GOD "BACAME A MAN IN THE FLESH?" It's so plain! He was/is still the SPIRIT, but chose to come to Earth as a man.
He had feelings, ate, slept, prayed, wept, loved, cried, and numerous other things, AS A HUMAN!
Whew! Why can't you see that? Jesus was Jehovah of the OT and the Messiah of the NT. ONE GOD! Also, I might add, that "HE" is the "SPIRIT" that dwells in humanity.
Still one God, just three "manifestations." Not three different persons.
MEE
[ September 12, 2002, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: MEE ]