Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate

Ok, guys, here is where I guess this is going to take place. It is kind of exciteing

Ok I guess it is going to take a little bit of time to type up an introduction. So give me at least a moon or so to put something to gether.

God bless.

[ August 12, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

As far as format I think we will go as follows.

</font>

• Introduction </font>
• Rebuttle </font>
• Questions from Oneness and Naomie </font>
• Open up Questions from BB members </font>
• Closeing</font>

Naomie, if you have any objections to that please feel free to address them.

[ August 08, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

Hey, I have not forgotten, I have been so busy, I have some of it typed so just hang in there, i promise it will be soon.

God bless.

 

Guys I am really sorry about the delay, I rally am trying to hurry. I have just had so much to do at my job here this week. I do have alot of it typed up though. But I am still working on it.

Naomi, Did you read what clint posted? Do you want to have a certain amount of words in the intro?

get back in touch with me

God bless

 

Ok, here is just a simple introduction, Something Im sure you all have heard before, but i figured that it was something to get the ball rolling.

I will start with a short illustration of The children of God leaving the old land.

Moses lead the Children of Israel out of bondage and they were almost about to walk into a Land that flows with Milk and hunney. The Jordan was the only thing that stood b/t them and the promise land. They were about to enter into a land with goodly cities which they did not build, homes full of things that they filledst not, and wells digged, which they diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees which they plantedst not.. (Deut 6:10-11) It was a place of many Gods and a place they would see what they had never seen before and a place where their children would see things they had never saw before. And Moses was concerned and delivered the law a second time to them. And he said

Deuteronomy 6:4 is the foundation of the Old Testament. And is probably the most important confession of Faith for the Jews

I am expressing the fact that there is only one God, ( Col 2:9,) who has manifested himself as a Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We recognize these manifestations as a work in relationship. God was the Father in creation, The Son in Redemption, and He is the Holy Spirit that lives inside of us today.

Now we understand that the Old Testament is our schoolmaster which leads us to Christ. (Galatians 3:24). If we are going to study trig or calculus we need to make sure our adding and subtracting is correct before we can move on. So before we can understand who Jesus is in the New Testament we need to understand who God was is in the Old Testament.

Was there only One God in the Old Testament? The bible is emphatic that there was. The Old Testament gives us solid evidence that God cannot be divided, separated, or split into persons. (Isa 44:24) When God did something he always did it by himself. He was alone. There was no one there to help him. We know that God works all things after the counsel of his own will.(Ephesians 1:11)

And we know that God to be Jehovah. Jehovah said (Isa 43:10-11) before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Jehovah said in (Isa 45: 21-23) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Now when we come to the New Testament we find that Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old. Jehovah said in Isaiah that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear. And we find the fulfillment of that in Philippians 2:9-11. Wherefore, God also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of both things in heaven and things in earth, and things under the earth, And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So what does that tell us? It tells us that Jesus Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament revealed in the Flesh. Not one part of Jehovah, not a piece of Jehovah but Jehovah himself. Jesus Christ is the Father incarnate.

If Jehovah said I am the only saviour how can we recognize Jesus as our Savior? The Only way that is possible is if we see Jesus Christ as the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

We are often referred to as “Jesus Only”. There isn’t anything wrong with that if you are viewing the Godhead from a oneness point of view. But seeing that as someone who believes in a Trinity, they will often assume that we do not believe in the Father and Holy Ghost. And I want to say that we do believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We do not see those titles as being three separate persons.

The bible tells us that the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwells in Jesus Christ.(Col 2:9) So in other words everything that the Godhead is we find in Jesus Christ.

 

Hey Naomi, where ya at? have not heard anything out of you?

 

Hey Naomi, go ahead and we will just post here. that will save us from haveing a middle man.

God Bless

 

The bible never teaches or says “God the Son” It always says “Son of God”. Why was the Son called the Son? The bible tells us in Luke 1:35 “ And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

The Son of God is called the “Son of God” b/c The Holy Ghost is causing the conception. And the one that causes the conception is considered the Father. And the one being conceived in this case is the a Son. He is not called the Son of God b/c he is the second person in the Godhead.

If you can show me one place in the bible where the “Son of God” Is called “God the Son” I will show you where Satan Repented of his sins and now sits on the left hand of God.

Elohim was used in the Hebrew more than any other word to describe God. Elohim is plural for Eloah. We can reach the point where we can understand that the word Elohim does not imply multiple persons. But signifies Gods Greatness, Goodness, and his many attributes.

After studying on this subject I have found that Elohim was used to describe the Golden Calf the Israelites worshiped in the wilderness. Elohim was used for singular pagan Gods such as Baalberith (judges 8:33). And Elohim was even applied to Jesus Christ in Psalms.

So surely Elohim does not imply that God has three separate Personalities but is the word that shows Gods multiple attributes.

Here we find that the Bible says that “God said”. So if God is a Trinity than Trinity said in unison “Let us make man in our image” so the Trinity was speaking to a fourth person. If we continue to read down one more verse we will find the explanation to verse 26. “So God created man in his [/b]OWN[/b] Image”. If you choose to say that God existed in more than one Person you have to face the difficulties in understanding other verses where the bible said The Lord Created the heavens alone and created the Earth by himself.(Isa 44)

So in concluding it is easy to understand that Gen 1:26 was not referring to three different people having a conversation.

Was the Son with God helping him create the worlds and helping him create man? Let me say that he was there, But he was not there as a separate person. The sonship began with the conception of the child. The “Son” was made of a woman (Gal:4)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In the Greek the word “Word” can mean “Plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer.” The reason why the bible does not say “In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God…” Is b/c the Son, God’s flesh or the incarnation of God did have a beginning. The Sons beginning was at conception. But since God knows no time, the “word” of the “Plan of God” as always been. So since the word or the plan always has been we can say that without that plan was not anything made that was made. The son is the redemptive plan and the redemptive plan has always been, but not as a second person, but as God himself.

The bible does say in 1 Tim 3:16 great is the mystery of godliness. It is a mystery that God can be both God and man at the same time but that is something that we all have to accept by faith. And as it as been said before, There has never been a mystery as to persons in the Godhead. The bible clearly states that there is only one God and this is easy for all to understand. The only mystery is how God could come in the Flesh and how Jesus could both be God and man.

 

But if you have a seperate Person than you have a seperate personality. And you said your self at the closeing of your rebuttle that God is devided in Three persons, each person has there own role, so that would leave one to beleive that Each one has a seperate mind and will.

My position on the other hand states that God can do all these things and hold these offices at the same time without haveing to be seperated. He was the Father in creation, The Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit that lives inside of us today.

Jesus was the creator, but not as another person. The Word was with God in the beginning as a plan, not a "Son" or a "seperate person"

B/c "Word" in Greek means Logos and Logos means

1) of speech
1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said
1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a
weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim

The Word never had a beginning, The word was God remember? But the sonship did not start and the role of the "Son of God" or "The man" or "The flesh" did have a beginning. And that moment was at conception. The Son of God is not a separate Person in the Godhead. The Son is the image of the invisible God and the express image of his(Gods) Person.

Men had no way of seeing the invisible God, So God created himself a body and called it his Son. God the Father, came down himself in the flesh as the Son of God.

Jesus is God himself. I would not say that he is a second person. Jesus said in revelation, that I am the First and the Last.

And again, if this were true than it would be valid to say that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost had seperated minds, Wills, bodies, ect.

 

Our little debate is sinking to the bottom of the other discussions.

Just wanted to keep it up at the top.

Cant wait to here your replys Naomi, If you want you can start the questions after your second rebuttle.

Godbless

 

Naomi, you still alive. I was looking forward to seeing what you had to say this morning when i got in my office. Cant wait to see what you have to say

God bless

Brian

 

oneness: But if you have a seperate Person than you have a seperate personality. And you said your self at the closeing of your rebuttle that God is devided in Three persons, each person has there own role, so that would leave one to beleive that Each one has a seperate mind and will.

Naomi:

Did Jesus have a separate will?
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if Thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but , Thine be done.

The Holy Spirit has a will also : 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

Oneness: Jesus was the creator, but not as another person. The Word was with God in the beginning as a plan, not a "Son" or a "seperate person"

Naomi:

Why would God refer to a plan by using the pronoun "us?" Also, how would a plan become flesh? It wasn't an "it", it was a "who" which became a "person" who "pre-existed" "with" God, as well as God Himself.

Oneness: Men had no way of seeing the invisible God, So God created himself a body and called it his Son. God the Father, came down himself in the flesh as the Son of God.

Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?
Did Jesus lie about this?

Oneness: Jesus is God himself. I would not say that he is a second person. Jesus said in revelation, that I am the First and the Last.

True! He is the First and the Last! He is God. He is also the second person in the Trinity. Three
persons in one God.

Oneness: And again, if this were true than it would be valid to say that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost had seperated minds, Wills, bodies, ect.

A person exists and has identity.
A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
This precludes the condition of being unconscious.
A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.
A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.
A person possesses a will.
A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
Persons do not need to have bodies.
God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).

*Information by CARM Ministries*

Jesus did say that, but remember Jesus had dual natures. He was man and God. What you are referring to here in Luke 22 is the “Man” crying out.

Question: You say that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate People. John 4 tells us that God is a Spirit. Which person is this referring to here? Would you say that this is saying that The Father is Spirit, The Son is Spirit, or the Holy Spirit is Spirit?

Why do you interpret this to mean that God is talking to three other people?

The word logos in the Greek means a plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer. The Plan can become flesh b/c the incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. And when the fullness of time came, God put that plan into action by embodying his spirit in flesh. And we know that to be the Son of God, not another person of God.

Is the Father a Spirit? Yes he is. Who can see a Spirit? The only way for us to see the Father is if he manifests himself in a way for us to see him. There is ample proof in the bible to prove that the Father manifested himself in the Person and Name of Jesus Christ. He did not manifest himself through the second person in the Godhead. Rather he manifested himself in Flesh (known to be the son) as the One True God

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• Isa 9:6 calls Jesus the everlasting Father </font>
• Colossians 2:9 tells us that all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The father is included in the Godhead, so the Father dwells in Jesus. </font>
• Jesus taught that he was the Father. John 8:19 The Pharisees asked Jesus “Where is thy Father? Jesus said you don’t know me or my father. If you would have known me you would have known my father also and he went on to say in Verse 24 if you believe not that I am he you shall die in your sins. </font>
• John 14 the question was asked “where are you going and how can we know the way?” Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the father but by me. If ye had known me ye should have known my father also and from hence forth ye know him AND HAVE SEEN HIM </font>
• John 14 the question was asked “Lord, show us the Father and it sufficeth us?” And Jesus said” Have I been so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me Phillip? He that hast seen me has seen the Father. And how sayest thou then show us the Father? </font>
• And also in Rev 6 Jesus said that he would become the father to all over comers. </font>

Is the Son subordinate to the Father? If you say that Son dwells in Heaven, The Holy ghost dwells in heaven and the Father dwells in heaven and that the Father is first and Last and the Son is first and Last and the Holy Spirit is first and Last could you please explain to me how you do not have three different People, Three different Gods etc?
God bless

[ August 23, 2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

Naomi, first we need to understand that the terms you are using are never found in the bible. The bible never states God the Son, or God the Holy Ghost or Spirit.

THe bible always refers to The son, as the "Son of God" I told you earlier why the "Son" is called the "Son" Jesus referrs to The Father as the "Father" b/c the Holy Ghost caused the conception. And the one that causes the conception is the Father.

Surely none of us beleive that the humanity of Jesus is eternal? John 3:16 says that God gave his only begotten son. But alot of people like to use the phrase the Eternal Son. And I would like to point out that the bible never uses this phrase either. The word begotten means procreate, to father, So begotten represents a certain point in time. As I have said before it is the point at which conception begins. So the the person that causes the conception must come before the begotten. So that in its self shows us that the Son was not with God in the beginning as a seperate Person. The Son of God had a beginning and that beginning took place at conception.

Jesus did exist in the begining but not as the Son. We all should have the understanding that the eternal Spirit of Jesus is none other than the Father himself.

Naomi what I am trying to say is that our creator loved us so much that he did not send another person to come down here and die for us. I am saying our creator loved us so much that he came down here himself in the form of a human and paied the price for our sins. (1 John:3:16)

And this is what it all boils down to. In order for us to carry out His instructions we must first learn who he is. Jesus told his deciples to Go and baptize in the Name of the Father, and of The Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

We find the Apostles understood that and fullfilled that when they were obidient in the book of Acts and baptized in the only Name given among men under heaven where by we could find salvation. That Name is Jesus.

Try not to think that we deny the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost b/c we dont. We just recognize the Name to be Jesus. As David Bernard said "When we pray we pray our Father, when the Holy Spirit is moveing we dont say the Father is moving b/c that implys that we are looking for some personage. But we say the HOly Spirit is moving here b/c it is the invisible power of the one true God."

When we praise the Name of Jesus we are praising the one true God who created the Worlds all by him self.

God bless