The L In The TULIP Doctrine

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A special atonement is taught in all types. Is it not a fact that the
lamb which Israel slew just before they left Egypt was for a special people?
Is it not a fact that it benefited none but God's chosen people? No man on
earth can prove that Christ made an atonement for the whole race of Adam ;
but the Bible does teach that He died for His people, and that He has can-
celled their great debt. "Who can lay anything to the charge of God's elect?"
Indeed I am a great sinner, but if Christ died for me, I have a great Saviour.
What can condemn me? Who shall separate me from His love? "He that spared
not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with
Him freely give us all things? If God delivered His darling Son to death, if
he let Him groan, bleed and die for me, will He withhold anything from me?
So dear little child of God if you feel that you have any interest in this
precious One, His blood having been spilt for you, you have solid ground to
base your hope on, ground that cannot be shaken. The blood of jesus cleanses us from sin.

Says One, "You understand, then. that election, predestination, and the
atonement all cover the ground?" Yes, this is the way I understand it. God is
equal in all His ways. All for whom Christ died will some day live in Heaven,
whether they ever hear the gospel or not. The gospel is only the sweet story
of the cross. Millions will never hear of it in this world, but in heaven they
will all sing that sweet song, "By thy blood thou hast redeemed." He is as
much the Saviour of the infant as of the adult. There is no other name given
under heaven nor among men whereby we must be saved. Well might the
poet say,

Dear dying Lamb, thy precious blood
Shall never lose its power,
Til all the ransomed church of God
Be saved to sin no more.

Let the song of redeeming love be sung around my bed when I come to
die, and let it be the first to greet my ears in heaven. I love the doctrine of a
full and complete atonement in Christ. There is no defect in my precious
Lord. In him all fulness dwells. his blood is the only antidote for sin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sermon was from one of our Old Line Primitive Baptist preachers in the 1800's Elder S.N. Redford... I feel he says it all and will let it stand as him and I are of like precious faith... Brother Glen

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>All for whom Christ died will some day live in heaven, whether they hear the gospel or not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've appreciated the content of these posts so far, but am I missing something here? I hope he's not saying what I think he's saying. For it's the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation. Where in the N.T. do we have God effecting salvation apart from the gospel?

Again, I've benefitted from these. I hope that I am misreading this.

Tim

The view of limited atonement leads to many,many, other non-spiritual errors. This is one of them. 'All for whom Christ died will someday live in Heaven, whether they hear the Gospel or not.'

I Timothy 2:4 says in the Greek, 'Who wishes all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. And in verse 6 God says, 'Who gave Himself a ransome for all, to be testified in due time.' Believing in Jesus opens the doors of the human heart to everlasting life. Just a sampling of [Ray's beliefs] . . . A limited atonement is in counterdistinction to the Word of God.

"Ray"

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

No you read him right... Gospel means... Good News... What better news is there than Christ paid for your sins? Do you have to hear it to be saved?... No! God is God and if you have been following the doctrine called the TULIP you will see nothing saves eternally but the blood of Jesus The Christ.

Not the Gospel, or baptism, or works. You do these things because you are already saved not to get saved. I know you were brought up to believe that the Gospel has saving possibilities but the scriptures state it is only to feed sheep. God is the only one that can make a sheep and has never needed man to help him in the creation process... Naturally or Spiritually... Brother Glen

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 10:15-17 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

I Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I Cor. 4:15 ...for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

II Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ'

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise.

II Timothy 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

II Timothy 1:10 But now is made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

And we could go on. I'll just ask my question again: where in the N.T. does God ever effect salvation apart from the Gospel?

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: TimothyW ]

Limited Atonement

Christ died for his sheep, and his death secures their salvation. It should be noted that not all men are Christ's sheep. Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." [Jhn. 10:26]; He that is of God heareth God’s words; ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” [John. 8:47] Belief does not make one a sheep but reveals that one is a sheep. Jesus said that a good shepherd gives his life for the sheep, and that is what he done -

"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." [John. 10:11]

"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd." [Jhn. 10:15-16]

Jesus had sheep of another fold, referring to the Gentiles, and said that they would hear His voice. Notice, Jesus said "...other sheep I HAVE..." not "WILL HAVE." Just as 1 John 5:12 - "He that HATH the Son HATH life..." Notice, it states "HATH ETERNAL LIFE." That means they currently possess it; I have heard Armenians use 1 John 5:12 to support eternal security, but never John 10:15-16 to support its true meaning. They were his sheep even though they had not yet been brought the gospel. Christ’s sheep are already chosen, not waiting to be chosen. Christ’s sheep are his sheep even though they may be scattered and not yet in the fold. God was not, by the death of His son, hoping to obtain children. God already has His children and they have been His from the foundation of the world. The purpose of Jesus’ death was to bring those children back to God and deliver them from the world. If Christ died for all mankind, then all mankind will be saved from the world.

“As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.” [Eze. 34:12]

“And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.” [Jhn 11:51-52]

“Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father.” [Gal. 1:4]

“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” [Tit. 2:14]

"He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." [Rom. 8:32-33]

Jesus came to seek and to save His sheep, and He done just that. To say that Jesus did not secure the salvation of His sheep is to say that Jesus Christ was a failure.

“For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.” [Jhn. 19:10]

Jesus did not die to maybe save some people from their sins, but to save his people from their sins.

“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.” [Mat. 1:21]

To say that God cannot accomplish His plan of redemption unless mortal man cooperates is to diminish the sovereignty of God. God will accomplish His plan of redemption because God's will is sovereign and cannot be changed by man.

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" [Dan. 4:35]

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" [Eph. 1:11]

The elect were reconciled to God by the death of His Son. If Jesus died for all mankind, then every member of Adam's fallen race would be reconciled to God, all heirs of eternal life.

“For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” [Rom. 5:10]

Limited atonement is not unjust, as God is not obligated to save any man. Those who oppose the doctrine of limited atonement charge God with being unfair by not providing everyone with an opportunity to salvation. But unlimited atonement, the doctrine that Christ died for everyone, is also unfair because it does not provide everyone with an equal opportunity to that universal salvation. Unlimited atonement teaches that Christ made salvation possible for all but secure for none. Limited atonement teaches that Christ, by His death, purged His people from their sins, victorious unto this end!

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" [Heb. 1:3]

Here again, if Jesus died for all mankind, then all mankind's sins are purged and in a perfect relationship with God. This is obviously not true.

God does not save people apart from the preaching of the word. To suggest that people are saved without hearing the gospel message is false teaching. 1 Peter 1 says that we are born again through the word that was preached to us, the living and enduring word of God.

Propitiation is often misunderstood. Ray has said that propitiation made salvation possible. However, in biblical terms, propitiation is never used of a possibility but of an actuality. When Christ made propitiation for sin, he satisfied the wrath of God. It was not a potential satisfaction, it was an actual satisfaction. 1 John 2:2 asserts that whatever Christ did for us (believers), he also did for the world. Ray's theology is true based on his understanding of propitiation. Ray's understanding of propitiation is unfortunately for him, not supported in Scripture.

You say the the Gospel has saving capabilities eternally. Tell me what Gospel the written word did the Apostles preach from? Did they roll out a scroll of the Old Testment and speak from Isaiah? Maybe the spoke from the Prophet Jeremias? Maybe Moses and the law?

They were indued with power from on high and had no other helps than from the Lord who with the Holy Ghost gave them what to say, how to say it, and prepared the hearers to hear it.

Did hearing the Gospel save those who were in spiritual darkness? Yes but not eternally as it saved them from error and untruths and unbelief which ran rampant in the early church. If you don't believe it read Apostle Pauls admonition to the Galatians who had been bewitched. They were established in the truth but someone turned the doctrine into untruths. O foolish Galatians who hath bewitched you!

You can believe the Gospel saves eternally but that is unsound doctrine! I won't argue each scripture you quoted but if you read between the lines you will see the Gospel has no eternal saving properties. The Living Word is the only one that saves eternally... The written word tells you the beautiful story of what the Living Word did for his children... Brother Glen

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

TimothyW said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I've appreciated the content of these posts so far, but am I missing something here? I hope he's not saying what I think he's saying. For it's the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation. Where in the N.T. do we have God effecting salvation apart from the gospel?

Again, I've benefitted from these. I hope that I am misreading this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're missing the context of what he's saying by leaving out his very next statement:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Millions will never hear of it in this world, but in heaven they will all sing that sweet song, "By thy blood thou hast redeemed." He is as much the Saviour of the infant as of the adult. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So in context, he's referring to infant salvation. Reformed theology has always taught that infants get saved the same way as everyone else, by faith in Christ's atoning work. They may not be able to articulate or express that faith, but it's there nonetheless. Any other teaching, such as the unscriptural "age of accountability", asserts another way of salvation apart from God's grace through faith in Christ (i.e., a salvation because of an infant's lack of knowledge of its sinfulness). The Bible is clear that all stand guilty before God from conception onwards. Anything less is Pelagianism.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me--Psalm 51:5 (NKJV) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Bible couldn't be more clear than that. But if infants are born in sin, can they be saved as infants? The reformed position says yes. Since salvation is wrought solely by the grace of God alone, then the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit can occur in anyone's heart, even an infant's. At that point, God can bestow the faith required for them to be saved just as he does with adults. Thus, a rejection of Calvinism leads one to the "age of accountability" theory since salvation becomes dependent upon a person's free will, and infants cannot exercise the will to believe. The question then to answer is this: Does the Bible teach that infants can be saved? It certainly seems to imply this in Psalm 22: 9-10:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> But You are He who took me out of the womb; You made me trust while on my mother's breasts. I was cast upon You from birth. From my mother's womb, You have been my God <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Therefore, in light of the entire context of his statement that infants will be in heaven, it is certainly no stretch to say that there will be some in heaven who never even heard the gospel preached. Even someone who does advocate the "age of accountability" would still have to concede this point, since even they believe that infants go to heaven. Almost all evangelical Christians would agree that abortion is the murder of a human life, and most would also agree that that murdered baby probably went to heaven (although they might disagree as to why); thus, we all have to agree that the baby killed in the womb could not have had the possibility to hear the gospel preached. That is all that our right reverend, the Elder Redford was saying in his sermon. This shouldn't be too much of a shock to anyone.

Elder Redford meant what he said and said what he meant. I will give you three senarios the first was the infant that died in the womb or was still born.

I have a Deaf Son and you can preach the Gospel to him until you are blue in the face and he can't hear you.

Then there is the savage in the deepest jungle of the earth he has never heard the Gospel either.

Now what you are trying to tell me is these are special cases the baby and the Deaf Son as neither has heard the Gospel that you know of but they are saved because they couldn't help their condition? Wouldn't the savage also apply as he never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel or because he's a savage is he damned to hell and everlasting torment because some missionary got lost and couldn't find him... To Bad!

How do you know God didn't speak to that babies heart, or the heart of my Deaf Son, or the heart of the savage in the jungle? Just because we can't see the work of God does that mean he's not working?

There are to many assumptions that are not scriptural. Why make allowance on certain individuals when we were all under sin... No exceptions!

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

That doesn't look like the Lord needs any help from me and as far as using the Gospel as a mode for eternal salvation that is what the world teaches not what God does according to scripture... Brother Glen

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

I would affirm the Reformed view of infant salvation. I have no problem with the Reformed doctrine of Limited Atonement, for that is what I believe the Bible teaches. And I understand the purpose of the gospel in feeding the sheep.

But what is being stated here goes beyond the teaching of scripture. By implication, it makes unneccessary and inappropriate the works of evangelism and missions. I refuse to believe for a moment that the lives of Hudson Taylor, William Carey, David Brainerd, and a host of others, many who've endured hardships and fiery persecution, spent their live's work on vain.

I've heard before that PB's were often Calvinistic, but not Reformed, and wondered why. Now I know.

I am not going to argue the acts of God in the salvation of little children. I will, however, state what Jesus said -

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." [Matt. 19:14]

God has everything under control. I believe that every little child that dies is safe in the arms of Jesus. As to what age one has to reach before they are considered guilty for their own sinfil nature, I do not know. I do not think it is fruitful to harp on such minor things when there are some Armenians on this board who do not correctly understand salvation. I also believe what Paul said -

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." [Rom. 9:15]

-Christopher

I think this further shows that we are going way over our heads in speculation. In either Calvinism or non-Calvinism, the doctrine of those who bnever heard is really difficult. Now, non-Calvinists are always accused of opposing Calvinism because they don't like the doctrine, but the idea of people being saved apart from the Gospel, I would really like to believe, but there is not enough scriptural warrant for it.
I see paeople saying the elect were always saved, but then in that case, were they ever really under any condemnation to be saved from in the first place?
If there's no age of accoutability, then the non-elect stillborn, aborted, etc, are virtually created in Hell. While infants do have the sin nature, the Bible says it's WORKS (not the nature itself) that people are condemned by. The nature simply causes us to commit those works.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eric B:
I the doctrine of those who bnever heard is really difficult. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it is not. Those who do not hear the message will not be saved. Faith (which is necessary for salvation) comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17). It has pleased God by the foolishness of message preachec to save those who believe. There is no other way.

As for babies, there is some evidence from the life of David that babies who die do go the heaven. It is not conclusive to be sure but it is evidence. God seems to act in this way. We could thus argue that all babies who die are elect and go to heaven. However, we could equally argue that all babies who die are non-elect and do not go to heaven. Eric is right on one thing: on this we are speculating.

Arminians have a really hard time because they don't understand the doctrine of election. God works election through the preaching of his word (1 Thess 1:4ff). The man in Africa who does not receive the message will not be saved, will not go to heaven. Had they been elect, they would have heard the gospel.

This point proves Ray's and Eric's and some others theory on partiality wrong. If God gives a greater opportunity to be saved those who were born in a society where the gospel is preached while not giving an equal chance to those in societies where it is not preached, then he would be being partial to the rich, those who live in developed societies. God is not partial as they are fond of reminding us. Therefore, the elect person in the jungle will be saved by the preaching of the word just as the elect in New York City. And the non-elect in New York City will not be saved just as certainly as the non-elect in the Amazon jungle.

Edited because it is off topic for this thread. Would probably fit better under General Baptist Discussions. Please keep this thread on topic.

Larry

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

Christopher,

This thread is on the "L in Tulip Doctrine." Your posts have nothing to do with that topic. This thread has veered a bit off and we need to steer it back toward the topic. If you would like to discuss the topic of this post, please start a new thread for it and those who wish to join can pitch in there.

Also, it would be helpful to summarize the salient points of Pyle's article so as to make a shorter post. That way it will be easier to read and discuss. Long posts are difficult to follow and usually don't get read.

Larry
Moderator

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

The Atonement is Limited to only his elect and I'm glad we don't know who they are. God has an operation of grace but brethren there are no free offers. I worship a God of purpose and he says his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

It doesn't matter what we all think with your doctrine multiplied billions have already perished in the falmes of eternal torment because they didn't hear the preached word. No thank you I will leave my Salvation in the hands of almighty God who will not fail.

God will preach his eternal salvation and our dependence on him in each and every heart of every child of God and thats where I will leave it. I will leave the Gospel to feed the sheep as its intended and not try to make one. That brethren is Limited Atonement and applies to only those that Jesus died for and not one more... Brother Glen

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

Before we proceed any further I want to make a statement to all the christian gentlemen here. I am presenting the TULIP doctrine and that is all! This post is not meant to try to convert anyone to our point of view. I am just stating what I and others like me believe and that is my only purpose. I appreciate what has been said here so far and the attitude and composure of those who have posted so far.

If others don't agree with me that is ok as I have been where they are now and understand. I know that even among my own brethren we can both be looking at the same scripture and see something different. I have learned a lot from many of you here and thank God that the journey has been benefical to me thus far and hope the same is true for you.

I appreciate those who have refered us to various web sites and considered their points of view. I use this as my rule of thumb when taking to other christians... "Consider what I say and the Lord giveth thee the understanding in all things."... Brother Glen