The L In The TULIP Doctrine

Mikayehu · Feb 17, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Pastor Larry,

After a thorough study you will find that all of God's electing in eternity past was based on humankind's response to the offer of grace through the Son. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I guess that depends on what you're studying .

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>All of Christ's predestinating of the saved and the lost was filtered through His foreseeing either belief and unbelief in the lives of human beings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, you are right that the basis of election is foreknowledge, but then you procede to define foreknowledge in a way differently than the Bible defines it. The Bible nowhere speaks of God foreseeing a person's belief but of His foreknowing THEM. Your illustration of a doctor's prognosis, though interesting, is irrelevant. The text does not say that God made a prognosis of the state of man, but that he foreknew certain men. My doctor does not "know" me; he may know about my health or my fitness, but he does not know me. The Bible states that God knew ME from the foundation of the world. Any study at all of "gnosis" and "prognosis" will reveal that the terms can carry much more meaning than simple awareness of facts, but this has been more than adequately demonstrated in other threads.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Your reference coming from II Thessalonians 2:13 is interesting because the Word says, that ‘. . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.' The choosing was posited on the basis of ‘belief of the truth.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Where does the text say that basis of the choosing was belief? The text says two things. One, God chose us to salvation before we existed. And secondly, the means of salvation is through 1) The sanctification of the Spirit and 2) Belief in the truth.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For people to say that the Lord sovereignly elects the majority of people to Hell is to make the Lord a Collaborator or ally with the Evil One. The Devil wants everyone in Hell; and according to this Calvinistic, quasi-theology the Lord is actively involved bringing about the same end result. Apparently, these two rival foes are not really the adversaries that we all have been taught down through the years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Surely you realize the fault of this logic. There were a great host of angels that fell. Satan wants all of them in hell. God chose to save none of them. Does that make God in cohorts with Satan and a Collaborator of evil? All men have earned hell. God was under no obligation to save any of us. The marvel is that God in His infinite wisdom and for His own glory chose to give a certain group of people to His Son, and send that Son to die for them. How that can be construed to make God in cooperation with Satan is beyond me.

tyndale1946 · Feb 18, 2002

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

I've heard this scripture preached in the Primitive Baptist Church more than any other. Its hard for anyone to understand how God elected his children? They think it is according to something he saw in them when he looked, some goodness he saw in them.

He elected them when there was no sin in the world, before man was ever made, elected them and gave them to his Son. In that election he also predestinated them to be conformed to the image of his Son... Predestination means he gave them a destination before time to be where the Son is... Heaven

I guess these could be called the 5 points of Salvation. They are only Limited to his elect and there is no need to belabor the point.

The Godheads Foreknowledge
The Godheads Predestination
The Godheads Calling
The Godheads Justification
The Godheads Glorification

He saved us by his grace which by definition is unmerited favor bestowed upon an unworthy object. Irresistible grace that you can't reject even if you wanted to!... Brother Glen

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

tyndale1946 · Feb 18, 2002

Ray and Mikayehu the question of the offer or no offer of grace is continued on Irresistible Grace the I in the TULIP Doctrine in the continuing thread... You may feel free to go there... Brother Glen

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

JAMES2 · Feb 18, 2002

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

Ray Berrian · Feb 18, 2002

James 2,

I am pleased that you have studied about these important issues for so long. I too, have studied these issues for 46 years. I spent four years in an Arminian Bible College and one year in a Five Point Calvinistic seminary. I received my B.D. degree in an Arminian seminary and a Th.D. from a Calvinistic seminary. I have pastored churches for about twenty three years.

For me, to have all the Word of God to dovetail in meaning and understanding, I only accept the fifth point of Calvinism which as you know is eternal security. I believe also in the depravity of man, but not total depravity. John 1:9 has convinced me of the fact that God can touch the life of a person through conscience,human intelligence and the conviction of the Holy Sprit before conversion to Christ. In other words, the Image of God is not totally effaced from the human being in spit of the fact that man is a sinner and responsible before Almighty God.

Though belief in Jesus Christ we will ' . . . be conformed to the Image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'[Romans 8:29].

Ray

Pastor Larry · Feb 18, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Though belief in Jesus Christ we will ' . . . be conformed to the Image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.'[Romans 8:29].
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ray,

I don't mean to be unnecessarily pedantic here but where in Rom 8:29 (or the surrounding verses for that matter) do you see belief?

tyndale1946 · Feb 19, 2002

The problem with that preacher Ray is the man you talk about who is going to believe is dead. Being dead he has the ability and is in the same condition as a dead man in a grave... None.

I want to state one thing here I never did say that election alone saved anyone and if I implied it I apologize. Election must be preceeded by the foreknowledge of God.

It is true Election never saved anyone but without Election none are saved. Everything has to work hand in hand according to Gods will and purpose. His sovereign decree and will is embraced in his promise, which is sealed in the election and predestination of his children to heaven.

He states in one place, I am God, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Those he elected are sealed in the promises of God who cannot lie and all he declared in Romans 8:28-29 are those promises fulfilled.

He did all this through his Son Jesus Christ without the intervention of the written Gospel. To say anything less is to say the written Gospel has eternal saving capabilities which it does not! It can save someone from error being in bondage to the law. Using the Gospel to obtain eternal salvation is not doctrinal but to hear the truths contained therein of who obtain it and stood where you never could... Is not only doctrinal but sound doctrine.

To understand Limited Atonement all one needs to do is go to the scene of the crucifiction and see the action of the two thieves. One was of the elect and one was not! The change in the one was brought on by Gods intervention. There is nothing else that could save that man... He didn't have the ability... He was hanging on a cross! The Living Word was between them both... Where was the written word or the preacher?
The only hope he had was The Son Of God to deliver him to glory. Limited Atonement in action... There was a change in one man! Why? He was one of those chosen in Christ Jesus before the world began!... This day shalt thou be with me in paradise!... Brother Glen

[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

JAMES2 · Feb 19, 2002

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

tyndale1946 · Feb 19, 2002

James2: If its not to much of an inconvenience please list the 15 pointers... Curiosity killed the cat... I'm sure the other brethren are dying to know also... Brother Glen

EPH 1:4 · Feb 19, 2002

No one will believe Limited Atonement until they believe man is DEAD in trespasses and sins, even a lot of Calvinists don't really believe this....but it's true...Steve

Eric B · Feb 19, 2002

The problem is, people are defining "dead" as if it were physically dead, (no consciousness in this world), but where does it say that spiritual death means one can't even choose God? This is an overgeneralized assumption. Spiritual death means we can't work our way to salvation, because we've already sinned, and we could never keep the Law if we tried. Why read anything else into this? (unless people want to believe others have no chance to escape hell)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Surely you realize the fault of this logic. There were a great host of angels that fell. Satan wants all of them in hell. God chose to save none of them. Does that make God in cohorts with Satan and a Collaborator of evil? All men have earned hell. God was under no obligation to save any of us. The marvel is that God in His infinite wisdom and for His own glory chose to give a certain group of people to His Son, and send that Son to die for them. How that can be construed to make God in cooperation with Satan is beyond me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I recently mentioned elsewhere, people ignore the principle of "To whom much is given, much is expected". The angels who fell were not born corrupted by sin, but were perfect. For them to turn away, they made their eternal decision, and would not be given a chance to repent. The entire problem with Calvinism is that it treats frail temporal man, who could not choose his state, as if he were one of those mighty angels, and has God deal with us just like them. As I say on my page, it would make sense if Origen's theory of all men preexisting and voluntarily falling (except for Christ) were true. (And Origen was an influence of Augustine)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> By the way, Ray, where to you get this idea of free-will in the first place? Let's see!!! You did not choose to be born, when or where or to whom to be born to, what time period of history to be born in, or anything else. Since EVERYTHING to sustain you depends on God, since you did not CREATE ANYTHING, not the air you breath, not the water you drink, not the food you eat, absolutely nothing, where do you get FREE WILL out of that? If God decided not to sustain you you would evaporate into nothingness in a split second. Wow, and you and the majority of people prattle on about "free-will."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Connected with the same problem. Because man could not choose how he was born on earth, then he should have no choice as to where he will spend eternity either (two totally different states of existence). Once again some were created just for Hell (even though some refuse to put it this way).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Same old error. Salvation is either of God alone, or it is like all the man-made religions in history -- based on man's "choice", or to put it more directly, man trying to save himself. Might as well call on the trees for your salvation if you are going to try to save yourself. Thank God our salvation is not up to our so-called "free-will." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again, God must save the way we say, (with me chosen, and others not chosen) for me to honor Him as sovereign. If God ordained free will, then it is all of Him, because He chose that way, not man, and "choosing" Him is not a work to save onesself like "man-made reliegions". In fact, that is the big difference between them, bacause those other realigions all have mandatory rituals; many of them really burdensome, and still no assurance of salvation with all that. To compare a simple "choice" to this is a totally dishonest attempt to turn the other position into a straw man.

tyndale1946 · Feb 19, 2002

Actually Steve Total Depravity has to be sound doctrine because if its not we are all lost. I Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. We who embrace the TULIP Doctrine in its entirety have no trouble with the word sinner. Its what we are by nature, its a condition, not only that, the wages of sin is death.

I will stand with Paul any day because what he is saying is I'm the greatest sinner who ever lived, and according to him he was. Each of us and I know I have, have had the same thoughts. Thanks be to God, we though we be sinners have the great sin bearer Our Lord and Savior Chist Jesus.

Those who can't except the doctrine of Total Depravity can't accept the label of sinner. They are insulted when you even suggest a thing and look at it as an act not a condition. Pauls declaration was that Christ came into the world to save sinners and those the Father gave him who were plunged in sin by Adam their federal head are only those in consideration. The world of his elect children.

That is why the Atonement is Limited! The sacrifice that Jesus made upon the cross was for his elect, though sinners and no one else. To say this applies to all the Adamic race of mankind is not biblical and was not Gods purpose or plan. To say they can accept or reject God in his plan is not even logical. How can man resist the creator who made him, if he is in the purpose and plan of God. It would be God resisting himself because he does the work and him alone.

Why some want to include all the Adamic race of mankind in the election is beyond me. Were is the God given election in that? Then they base that election on some goodness God saw, like we had any goodness. I won't drag out the issue any longer and let someone else reply, but until God moves the scales from our eyes we will never see Limited Atonement! Not in this life!... Brother Glen

tyndale1946 · Feb 19, 2002

I will let the other brethren respond on this as I have been accused of being one and let my other Primitive Baptist brethren who are here respond:

A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:
Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

My question is this does a book written by the hand of God, preached by those called out by him to convey his message to his children, have the power to eternally save those who hear its message?

I believe it is not the message that saves eternally but the one called Jesus Christ that saves his children apart from any act of man who is totally dead! To say anything less would be to imply it is up to the sinner who is dead to reach out and lay hold on to eternal life... All I can say to this is take your Bibles, we have a task ahead of us and the cemeteries await... Brother Glen

Ray Berrian · Feb 19, 2002

According to Calvinist theology--do all sinners have 'the Image of God in man' before they are found by Christ and are made elect by Him?

Perhaps, this is a better way of saying it. Are sinners made in the Image of God?

Ray

Pastor Larry · Feb 19, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
According to Calvinist theology--do all sinners have 'the Image of God in man' before they are found by Christ and are made elect by Him?

Perhaps, this is a better way of saying it. Are sinners made in the Image of God?

Ray<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. But you are avoiding the question I have been asking. Where is election said to be the result of belief? Earlier on this page (first post at the top), you quoted a passage and then injected something into the passage that is not there. Why not answer those questions instead of formulating other, irrelevant ones?

Ray Berrian · Feb 19, 2002

Pastor Larry,

Why is it important that we look for the concept of 'believing'in Romans 8? Apparently, in this chapter, God was not emphasizing this reality. God is saying that He has forseen a group of people who He has predestinated to become 'conformed to the Image of His Son.'

In Acts 2:21 & 38 God is telling sinners to 'call on the name of the Lord to be saved, and to 'repent.' The Triune God cannot call on God neither can They repent. Clearly, this is something that They are commanding that we do as human beings so we might be included in that people destined for Heaven.

If God decreed the saved and the lost, in and of itself, He would not have needed people to preach God's Word or to lead people to a time of genuine belief in Christ.

Ray

Pastor Larry · Feb 19, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Why is it important that we look for the concept of 'believing'in Romans 8? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Becuase you made a statement about what Rom 8 teaches. I am asking where does Rom 8 teach what you said it did. It is important because it is God's word. It is obviously less important to you because of the place you have put yourself in here. Rom 8 obviously does not teach what you said it did.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In Acts 2:21 & 38 God is telling sinners to 'call on the name of the Lord to be saved, and to 'repent.' The Triune God cannot call on God neither can They repent. Clearly, this is something that They are commanding that we do as human beings so we might be included in that people destined for Heaven.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So? Did you think I disagreed with this? The last part is again a statement that is unsupported by Scripture. Where does it say this? You keep asserting predestination to heaven as a result of belief, yet you consistently give no Scripture for it. This is another attempt to avoid the question.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If God decreed the saved and the lost, in and of itself, He would not have needed people to preach God's Word or to lead people to a time of genuine belief in Christ. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? This is a non-sequitur. God has decreed that the elect are saved through the preaching of the word. In fact, Paul said that the reason he endured suffering (for preaching the gospel) was so that the elect would be saved. You have taken your own ideas about what is or is not necessary rather than accepting what Scripture teaches.

Once again I will ask: What verse or verses teach that belief leads to election?

This is a simple question. Why not just answer it? You keep saying this is true but you will not provide one iota of biblical proof for it.

tyndale1946 · Feb 19, 2002

Ray you repent for something you have done. If I come to your house and steal your car and then realize that this was wrong, I return your car and beg your forgiveness.

We can't repent because we have to pay the price for that repentance!... We don't have the price to pay because we are unclean. We are sinners plain and simple and any sacrifice or offering we make to God except the shed blood of The Lamb of God is unacceptable.

God will not now or ever except a sacrifice that has a blemish. He didn't in the Old Testament and he will not in The New Testament. You know the Bible Ray all sacrifices were rejected if they had a blemish. That is why Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple. They were selling unfit sacrifices to Gods children who came there to worship. They made God house a den of thieves.

Do you repent to get life or do you repent because you already have life?... Brother Glen

Jeff Weaver · Feb 19, 2002

Bro. Glenn.

You are doing a fine job of laying out what we (Primitive Baptists) believe on the subject. I can discern no difference in what you believe and what I believe on limited atonement.

Hope all is well in San Diego.

Jeff

[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

tyndale1946 · Feb 19, 2002

You mean Brother Jeff you're not going to throw me a lifeline?... I might be drowning any minute... Glug... Glug... Glug!... Brother Glen

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