The L In The TULIP Doctrine

Cute post, tyndale, lol.

This view of limited atonement rightfully acknowledge's God's sovereignity (well, almost), but fails to take into account His Providence. Let me expain.

Stating that the gospel couldn't be neccessary for salvation is in effect a failure to recognize the power of God in orchestrating all events to occur to accomplish His purpose. Again and again in the N.T. we see God accomplishing His purpose (salvation) through the preaching of the gospel.

Now back to the point of Sovereignity. Would God be truly Sovereign if He was unable to use human instruments (through the preaching of the gospel) to accomplish His purpose?

I'll grant that He did not have to choose this way. But He did. And I don't know why, but it must be to the praise of the glory of His grace.

Let me pose one question are there more than one type of salvation in the scriptures?... Brother Glen

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Glen, why don't you start another thread with this one since it is moving away from the topic.

At five pages, this is about long enough and starting to wonder. I will close it down later today.

Larry

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You mean Brother Jeff you're not going to throw me a lifeline?... I might be drowning any minute... Glug... Glug... Glug!... Brother Glen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you really need one? I think you are doing a fine job laying it out. I couldnt do any better, and I support you 1000%.

Pastor Larry,

I cannot take credit for this list of Scriptures that indicate that faith, belief, or trust in Jesus is the pivotal reality leading a sinner into a relationship with Him. When I was in Bible College in the 60's I read Dr. Robert Shank's book, "Life In the Son," which refuted eternal security. I think he was a Baptist who used to believe in this doctrine. I do, as I think you do, believe in the eternal security of the believer. So we agree about this one huge truth that Calvin got correct.

You asked me about one verse that indicates that predestination is determined by way of believing, trusting or having faith in Jesus. Here is what Dr. Shank says in his book, "Elect in the Son" written many years ago. [Bethany House Publishers; Minneapolis, MN. 55438] On page 112 he offers these verses indicating man's freedom to either accept or reject the offer of pure grace.

Matt.8:10f; Jn. 1:7,11f (the question of agency in the faith posited in Jn. 1:12 is determined by vs. 7 rather than v. 13, which properly has reference to Christ; cf, my work Life in the Son, footnote p. 91) Jn. 2:50; Jn. 3:14-18; Jn. 5:32-47; Jn. 6:32-35,51; Jn. 7:17; jn. 8:24 and context; Jn. 10:37f; Jn. 12:32, 44-50; Jn. 16:8f; Acts 10:34-43; Acts 13:38-41; Acts 14:22; Acts 17:24-34; Acts 28:23-38; Rom. 1:16-20; Rom. 3:21-5:2; Rom. 16:26; Gal. 2:16-3:29; I Thess. 2:13; I Thess. 3:1-8; I Tim. 3:4; I Tim. 4:16; II Tim. 2:12;II Tim. 2:18; II Tim. 4:1-4; Heb. 2:1-4; Heb. 3:1-4:16; Heb. 5:9; Heb. 6:4-15; Heb. 10:19-39; Heb. 11:1-12:29; Heb. 13:7-17;Jas. 1:18-21; Jas. 2:14-26; II Peter1:10f; II Peter 2 & II Peter 3:16-18; I John 1:5-2:6; I John 2:23-25,28; Jude 20f; Rev. 2:10f; Rev. 2:17; Rev. 2:25-29; Rev. 3:4-6;Rev. 3:11-13; Rev. 3:19--22; Rev. 22:l4-19.

It is very important in theology to have balance and decorum. God does teach about His sovereignty, but He also indicates that humankind has a free will. Everyone sees this if they have an open mind and are willing to be taught by the Spirit of God.

Human beings have the ability to believe in Jesus to be saved and to be numbered among His elect. As children we were taught, ‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVETH in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Only Hezekiah 2:1 says, ‘He that believeth on Him shall become one of the elect.' And Hezekiah 2:9 says, ‘God has predestined and elected you to believe in His Son.'

All of Biblical understanding comes from clear thinking and staying with the meaning of the original languages projecting His truth.

Sample One: Hebrews 4:2 portrays people who heard the Gospel preached but it did no of them any good. Why? Not because God did not give them faith, but because as God has said, when they heard the truth they neglected to ‘ . . . mix their faith' with His offer of pristine grace.

Respectfully,

"Ray"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Those who can't except the doctrine of Total Depravity can't accept the label of sinner. They are insulted when you even suggest a thing and look at it as an act not a condition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know who gets insulted when suggested they are a sinner. Maybe some non-believers who think they are good, but not any biblical non-Calvinists I/ve seen. It is true many of us do treat sin as purely acts more than a condition, (but some Calvinists do it too), but still, the condition doesn't necesatrily prevent anyone from repenting and calling out to God for salvation. It prevents us from being able to save ourselves through our works.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> We can't repent because we have to pay the price for that repentance!... We don't have the price to pay because we are unclean. We are sinners plain and simple and any sacrifice or offering we make to God except the shed blood of The Lamb of God is unacceptable.
God will not now or ever except a sacrifice that has a blemish. He didn't in the Old Testament and he will not in The New Testament. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is basically the error of faith as a work. You seem to be making repentance itself into a "sacrifice" for sin, but the Bible never associates the two. We don't pay the price for repentance, Christ pays the price for sins, and when we repent, His payment is applied to us.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I cannot take credit for this list of Scriptures that indicate that faith, belief, or trust in Jesus is the pivotal reality leading a sinner into a relationship with Him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None of these verses say what you have said, that belief leads to election. Every connection of faith and election has election first. There is no need for God to elect those who have already chosen him. That would be a wasted act. Election leads to belief, not belief to election. This is a fundamental truth of Scripture.

Pastor Larry,

You said, ‘There is no need for God to elect those who have already chosen Him. That would be a wasted act.' I agree with you in these two sentences. Almighty God has eternally known who His elect souls will be. I don't think He ever made a decision about this matter. If He did it would almost hint that He didn't know this fact at some time in the eternities past. I believe He tells us these truths in Scripture simply to give us an idea of the reality of His activity in salvation and our proceeding in this realm of Divine verities.

I was surprised that you did not have anything to say about Dr. Shank's lengthy, list of verses and corroborative evidence of man's involvement in the consummation of God's eternal salvation. These verses are worthy of everyone's consideration no matter what view we might have as to the mechanics, if you will, of humankind's response to His summons to believe or perish.

You said, 'Every connection of faith and election has election first.'

This is the point of these many verses offered by Dr. Shank. Your above statement is incorrect.

You said, 'Election lead to belief, not belief to election. This is a fundamental truth of Scripture.' Actually, this is a fundamental belief of Calvinism.

Your statement would be entirely correct if you changed a few words. 'Election does not precede belief. Belief sets in motion the electing of the sinner to become a child of God. This is a fundamental truth of Scripture.

My regards,

Ray

"Asleep At The Throttle"

Perhaps many did not reflect on Dr. Shank's list of Scriptures noted in the writing which began, 'I cannot take credit for this list of Scriptures. . . ' or the references Hezekiah 2:1 or 2:9. There is no Book Hezekiah in the Old Testament or in fact in the New Testament.

Ray

If ‘particular election' was really orthodox, Christian belief why did not God speaking through the Apostle Paul say something like this. Here was the exact timing but He failed to offer these words. ‘God was in Christ reconciling the elect to Himself . . . ' What we do find, however, in II Corinthians 5:19 is this. ‘God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD unto Himself . . . ' [Note I John 2:2] ‘ . . . He is the propitiation for our sins, and not our only, but also FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.' Here we find monergism. Here only God was involved in the reconciling of His lost humanity.

Synergism comes into play when the Apostle Paul commits ‘ . . . unto us the word of reconciliation . . .' and says, ‘Now we are ambassadors for Christ.' Here God and man are ministering together to humanity insuring that there will be an elect people.

God alone created and offered the plan of salvation. This is monergism.

God offers His salvation to everyone, but humankind has to believe or remain in unbelief. This is synergism. Here God and man are involved in creating faith in Christ.

Respectfully,

Ray

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God offers His salvation to everyone, but humankind has to believe or remain in unbelief. This is synergism. Here God and man are involved in creating faith in Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ray if you want to believe that you are welcome to it but not me. The word offer is only applicable to The Son Of God who offered up himself to his Father for the sins of the elect only.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

The 3rd verse is the key and their unbelief does not effect the faith of God which is in his Son Jesus Christ. He has always been able to save his elect children to the uttermost without their help in any way... Brother Glen