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tongues
- Thread starter Mike McK
- Start date
Actually, I was the one that made that quote. Our God answers prayer, and does so quite miraculously. He heals, and works according to His will. His supernatural works are not limited to the first century. By no means was I implying that. We serve a miracle working God. I simply believe that the gifts of the Spirit were:
First, Supernatural in their nature,
Second, could be used at anytime, any place.
For example, if one had the gift of healing, he would be able to go into a hospital and heal the sick, all of them, in every hospital bed in the hospital, and in the ER as well.
Today God answers prayer according to His will.
DHK
DHK, Thanks for your last two posts. The second to last one answered the question I was asking. I also agree about the useage of the gifts and have argued that a lot, usually with no come back from others. I will be in thought and prayer about this as I think it is a great subject. Anyway, there was a pastor of a big church in Rockford Ill. He spoke for about 6000 people on Sunday mornings (2 services). Anyway, he said that he was a very shy person and hated speaking before others. He got saved, I think in college, though I am not sure about that, and said God told him to preach. He said that he was very much afraid and to that day he still didn't like the thought of speaking in front of others. He said though, it all changes when he steps in front of the microphone and he is able to preach without and nervousness at all. He did seem very comfortable and effective the few times I saw him. That was a long way of saying that to him there was a supernatural element to his gift. There are probably many stories like that where people change dramatically in what they can do. Of course, with the Holy Spirit entering ones life, there better be a change, apart from any gift, so I guess I may have just answered my own argument 
.
Thanks for your help and wisdom,
In Christ,
Brian
.Thanks for your help and wisdom,
In Christ,
Brian
Actually, I was the one that made that quote. Our God answers prayer, and does so quite miraculously. He heals, and works according to His will. His supernatural works are not limited to the first century. By no means was I implying that. We serve a miracle working God. I simply believe that the gifts of the Spirit were:
First, Supernatural in their nature,
Second, could be used at anytime, any place.
For example, if one had the gift of healing, he would be able to go into a hospital and heal the sick, all of them, in every hospital bed in the hospital, and in the ER as well.
Today God answers prayer according to His will.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Oops! Sorry DHK.
I agree with you to a point. I don't see people have permanent spiritual gifts like gifts of healing, tongues, etc. Were the 1st century gifts permanent? Would God give the gift of tongues (as an example) for a specific instance, i.e. a believer is traveling abroad and meets a person that doesn't speak english. Would/Can God give this person the gift of tongues temporarily to speak to the other person?
In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul speaks of three groups of gifts. There was only one gift that was permanent, and that was love.Originally posted by ChurchBoy:
Oops! Sorry DHK.
I agree with you to a point. I don't see people have permanent spiritual gifts like gifts of healing, tongues, etc. Were the 1st century gifts permanent? Would God give the gift of tongues (as an example) for a specific instance, i.e. a believer is traveling abroad and meets a person that doesn't speak english. Would/Can God give this person the gift of tongues temporarily to speak to the other person?
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Love is the one permanent gift because it will never fail; it will endure forever.
There are two semi-permanent gifts: faith and hope.
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Love is greater than faith and hope because it endures forever. But what about faith and hope, how long will they last. What about faith.
The Bible says: "We walk by faith, and not by sight." Thus when Jesus comes, we no longer will need faith.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Today we don't see Christ. Someday we will. Then we will no longer need faith.
What about hope. The same holds true for hope, for Christ is our hope.
Romans 8:24-25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
When Christ comes, we no longer need hope.
Verse 8 mentions three of the temporary gifts:
"but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."
--All of these temporary gifts ceased, failed, vanished away--were done with at the end of the first century when the Bible was completed. They were no longer needed, not simply because the Bible was complete, but also because almost all of the Apostles had now passed off the scene. The gospel message had been fully verified with signs and wonders. The Jews had long since had their time to repent having seen these signs (especially that of tongues) 1Cor.14:21,22. History itself records the "absence" of tongues after the first century. In other words we don't have any record of tongues in the church until the beginning of the modern phenomena of tongues which began at the beginning of the 20th century (a false imitation of the real thing).
Were they permanent? They were permanent during the first century. Yes and no.
Paul had the gift of healing. We read many examples of his ability to heal. However in 2Cor.12, he prayed 3 times that the Lord would take away a "thorn in the flesh," an infirmity. He wanted the Lord to heal him. The Lord's answer was, "My grace is sufficient for you."
Paul was unable to heal Timothy of his stomach problems--very likely some sort of dyssentery--common in those climates and countries. He simply advised him "Take a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thy oft infirmities." Why couldn't Paul heal him instead?
Paul said, "Trophimus have I left sick at Miletus." Why did he do that. Was he just being cruel? I hope not. It was not God's will for Trophimus to be healed, and thus Paul could not heal him, or was not permitted by God to heal him at that time. But it is evident by other Scriptures that he did have the power to heal.
Acts 20:9-12 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
12 And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.
--Paul did have the gift to heal. This is only one example. But he couldn't heal all of the time, only when it was God's will for him to do so.
Likewise, speaking in tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
--Paul had the gift of tongues, and was able to use it. But it was not always the appropriate thing to do. He did not always speak in tongues in the church, for it was not always profitable to do so.
1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
--If there were no unbelieving Jews present, Paul would probably not have spoken in tongues. Most people of that time understood Greek. It was a universal language. If perchance there was one that did not know the language (a rare occurence) he would have spoken in tongues and interpreted or made sure there was an interpreter.
Would God give the gift of tongues (as an example) for a specific instance, i.e. a believer is traveling abroad and meets a person that doesn't speak english. Would/Can God give this person the gift of tongues temporarily to speak to the other person?
This would be a rare occurence, but I am not one to limit God. Normally a missionary has to go to a country and learn the language the hard way. I have had that experience myself. I have often wished God had given me that gift, but learning languages is not something that is easy. In most cases it takes a lifetime. Even in English our language is always changing. Ask a teenager.
Our God works miracles. If He wanted to, it is not beyond His power to give someone the ability to speak a foreign language immediately.
Unfortunately, that is not what is happening in the tongues movement of today. The tongues being spoken today are not tongues or languages at all. It is simply gibberish or nonsense syllables strung together. Even to the most scholarly of linguists, it doesn't make sense. They are not languages, and therefore are not of God--on that one point alone. If one doesn't know what they are ecstatically uttering how can they say it is of God. The nonsense words may be coming straight from the mouth of the devil. Paul says in Phil.4:8 to "think upon these things," indicating that God wants us to use our minds in an active way, not open them up to an unseen force causing the mind to allow one to speak in tongues.
DHK
Hi Guys, just one point. When Paul did not heal himself, Timothy, or the other person I believe it was his choice not to. You see paul understood more then anybody what "gifts" are meant for. They are as he wrote in 1 cor. 12:7 to be used for the common good. Healing himself would not be for the common good. Apparently healing Timothy or the other guy wasn't either. You see, when Paul or Peter healed they followed it up by preaching a message, using the healings they did as a spring board to sharing the gospel with the "lost". The healing was for the common good as it was used for evangelism. Healing himself would not be for the common good, so Paul asked God to do it and God said no and Paul realized that in his weakness he was being made stronger and stronger. Paul, who knew more on spiritual gifts then anybody would not have allowed himself to pervert a gift that he had. Does that make some sense or does it seem way out there? It seems logical to me anyway.
Whether gifts have past or not I can see no way around the fact that God gives the gift and They (we) choose when and if to use it. The nature of a "gift" in any sense, means something fully given from one to another.
DHK, We have lost ALL the tongues speaking crowd, what happened??
In Christ,
Brian
Whether gifts have past or not I can see no way around the fact that God gives the gift and They (we) choose when and if to use it. The nature of a "gift" in any sense, means something fully given from one to another.
DHK, We have lost ALL the tongues speaking crowd, what happened??
In Christ,
Brian
GrannyGumbo
<img src ="/Granny.gif">
I'm still here & reading with great interest!
You fellars have given out much good-stuff & for that, I truly thank you!
I recently met a man who said he was preaching in a jail service mixed w/mexicans & later, one of their "own" told him that someone got saved from "hearing" the gospel preached Spanish(altho' this preacher spoke only English). My first thoughts were "how does the preacher know this guy was being truthful" & "maybe the inmate understood 'un poco' English".
I believe tongues have ceased for today...I do know satan imitates. I also know when you start getting TRUTH across, they run away; at least the ones who live around me do. (I saw some more trailers coming in yesterday & another house going up; I am completely surrounded)!
Tongues is NOT evidence for salvation, but through a "changed" life. I asked my son why he didn't just trust in Jesus anymore & he said "Mama, I do", & I said, "then why are you 'claiming' to trust in those tongues?"
PLEASE continue to pray for Patrick. Thanks.
I recently met a man who said he was preaching in a jail service mixed w/mexicans & later, one of their "own" told him that someone got saved from "hearing" the gospel preached Spanish(altho' this preacher spoke only English). My first thoughts were "how does the preacher know this guy was being truthful" & "maybe the inmate understood 'un poco' English".
I believe tongues have ceased for today...I do know satan imitates. I also know when you start getting TRUTH across, they run away; at least the ones who live around me do. (I saw some more trailers coming in yesterday & another house going up; I am completely surrounded)!
Tongues is NOT evidence for salvation, but through a "changed" life. I asked my son why he didn't just trust in Jesus anymore & he said "Mama, I do", & I said, "then why are you 'claiming' to trust in those tongues?"
PLEASE continue to pray for Patrick. Thanks.
Granny,Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
I'm still here & reading with great interest!You fellars have given out much good-stuff & for that, I truly thank you!
I recently met a man who said he was preaching in a jail service mixed w/mexicans & later, one of their "own" told him that someone got saved from "hearing" the gospel preached Spanish(altho' this preacher spoke only English). My first thoughts were "how does the preacher know this guy was being truthful" & "maybe the inmate understood 'un poco' English".
I believe tongues have ceased for today...I do know satan imitates. I also know when you start getting TRUTH across, they run away; at least the ones who live around me do. (I saw some more trailers coming in yesterday & another house going up; I am completely surrounded)!
Tongues is NOT evidence for salvation, but through a "changed" life. I asked my son why he didn't just trust in Jesus anymore & he said "Mama, I do", & I said, "then why are you 'claiming' to trust in those tongues?"
PLEASE continue to pray for Patrick. Thanks.
I for one do not believe int the"CESSATIONIST HERESY"!!!
If your son says that he trust In Jesus, Rejoice that he believes in and is trusting in Jesus instead of making an issue out of tongues. If you don't want antything to do with tongues that is your privilege but If tongues is the only thing that your son participates in the you don't like, be thankful. There are many parents that have to worry about their kids being involved in Alcohol, drugs, sex and other things. Look at the fruit of his life and if it lines up with God's word then be thankful.
John states:
1 John 5:14-15 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Though Paul had the gift of healing, I beleive he had to discern God's will when to use it. There were times when it was not the will of God to be healed. This thinking goes contrary to the typical "faith-healer" of today, who blames those that are not healed on the "victim's" lack of faith. Of course, according to James 5, it is the prayer of faith, (prayed by the elders of the church), not by the one seeking to be healed, that heals the sick. Interesting isn't it?
In 2Cor.12, the Lord made it clear that it was not His will for Paul to be healed. God's grace was sufficient for him. Paul accepted this, and then we look at his response:
2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
He says "I will gladly glory in my infirmities...I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in persecutions, in distresses...for when I am weak, then I am strong"
What a marvellous testimony Paul had. Instead of grumbling and complaining about his circumstances and infirmities, he praises the Lord for them.
It is not always God's will to heal. We must determine what the will of God is, accept it, and in all things give thanks.
DHK
I agree that that the modern "tongues" movement is NOT Biblical tongues. From my own study of the Word of God, Biblical tongues are clearly human languages. </font>[/QUOTE]There are at least 3000 dialects in the world ( probably more). Unless you can speak all of these fluently how do you know if tongues are not human languages.
I have never met a person that could speak over 7 languages and only one person that could do this.
Unless you can speak 3000 languages fluently then you cannot prove that speaking in tongues is what some refer to as gibberish. By the way there is no greek word in the New Testament or Hebrew word in the Old Testament that can be translated gibberish it is a term thrown around by those that adhere to the Cessationist Heresy.
Not so Atestring.
If you carefully listen to a language, any language, you can discern (whether or not you are acquainted with the language) if it has structure to it, if it has a varied vocabulary, and some other characteristiscs. One can discern a language from "gibberish"
There are many Charismatic websites out there that "teach" you how to speak in tongues. They give you three or four syllables and tell you to repeat these same syllables over and over again in rapid succession. That is quite a bit different than speaking in a real language.
Languages also fall into distinguishable groups most of which are recognizable. I can easily discern when a perosn is speaking an Asian language such as: Hindi, Punjabi, Telegu, Sindhi, Urdu, Peshtu, Pharsi, Baluchi, etc. though I may not understand what they are saying. The same goes for many of the European languages.
I can easily understand when a person is repeating nonsense syllables such as "gibberish." It is not as difficult as you make it out to be.
DHK
Not so Atestring.
If you carefully listen to a language, any language, you can discern (whether or not you are acquainted with the language) if it has structure to it, if it has a varied vocabulary, and some other characteristiscs. One can discern a language from "gibberish"
There are many Charismatic websites out there that "teach" you how to speak in tongues. They give you three or four syllables and tell you to repeat these same syllables over and over again in rapid succession. That is quite a bit different than speaking in a real language.
Languages also fall into distinguishable groups most of which are recognizable. I can easily discern when a perosn is speaking an Asian language such as: Hindi, Punjabi, Telegu, Sindhi, Urdu, Peshtu, Pharsi, Baluchi, etc. though I may not understand what they are saying. The same goes for many of the European languages.
I can easily understand when a person is repeating nonsense syllables such as "gibberish." It is not as difficult as you make it out to be.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]You must be more brilliant wtih languages than I am. 3000 is a lot of dialects.
I would like to know the common things that all 3000(or more) dialects have in common and how youfind the distinguishable groups.
I am all ears if you cfan tell me how this works.
You may think that Speaking in tongues is gibberish, I disagree and do not see where the term gibbeerish is found in the Bible. People that believe in the Cessationist Heresy like to throw this word around. I don't buy it!!!!
Most Charsmatics that I have spoken to admit that they don't know what they are saying, and admit that they don't believe that they are speaking in a real language. They may define it as a heavenly language, a spiritual language, an angelic language, a language of groanings and moaning which "cannot be uttered." (That's a good trick.) But most confess that they are not real languages. If they confess that they don't speak in a real language, who should we be to argue with them. Ask MEE who frequents this board. Does she know what language she speaks in? I have asked her before. She doesn't have a clue.
If they don't know what they are saying how do they know if it is from God or from the devil? It is a very dangerous place to be in.
Look up the word language in the dictionary, and see what it says. A language is made up of symbols with the purpose of communcating between two or more people. When you have a group of people speaking in tongues how much communication goes on between the individuals involved. Tongues in never between man and God, but it is always for the edification of the church. If an individual speaks in tongues, i.e., another language, the rest of the church ought to be able to understand (thus the need for an interpreter) or he should be able to understand and interpret himself. Even if there is no interpreter, there should be someone in the church that understands the tongue being spoken in, otherwise the gift would be fruitless. What was the purpose of the gift in the first place. It was for edification of the church, particularly if there was someone who was there that did not understand the common language. There will always be somenone present who will understand, if it is a Biblical language. So, your argument (or worry) disappears.
DHK
If you do not want to speak in tongues that is up to you.
You can argue and try to make others think that they are ignorant but I will assure you of one thing.
More and More Christians will be baptized by Jesus into the Holy Spirit.
You will find that more people will speak in tongues when this happens . You can't stop what God is Doing no more than you can stop a Rushing mighty wind.
You can argue and try to make others think that they are ignorant but I will assure you of one thing.
More and More Christians will be baptized by Jesus into the Holy Spirit.
You will find that more people will speak in tongues when this happens . You can't stop what God is Doing no more than you can stop a Rushing mighty wind.
Most Charsmatics that I have spoken to admit that they don't know what they are saying, and admit that they don't believe that they are speaking in a real language. They may define it as a heavenly language, a spiritual language, an angelic language, a language of groanings and moaning which "cannot be uttered." (That's a good trick.) But most confess that they are not real languages. If they confess that they don't speak in a real language, who should we be to argue with them. Ask MEE who frequents this board. Does she know what language she speaks in? I have asked her before. She doesn't have a clue.
If they don't know what they are saying how do they know if it is from God or from the devil? It is a very dangerous place to be in.
Look up the word language in the dictionary, and see what it says. A language is made up of symbols with the purpose of communcating between two or more people. When you have a group of people speaking in tongues how much communication goes on between the individuals involved. Tongues in never between man and God, but it is always for the edification of the church. If an individual speaks in tongues, i.e., another language, the rest of the church ought to be able to understand (thus the need for an interpreter) or he should be able to understand and interpret himself. Even if there is no interpreter, there should be someone in the church that understands the tongue being spoken in, otherwise the gift would be fruitless. What was the purpose of the gift in the first place. It was for edification of the church, particularly if there was someone who was there that did not understand the common language. There will always be somenone present who will understand, if it is a Biblical language. So, your argument (or worry) disappears.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]He that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not to Man But to God and in the Spririt He speaketh mysteries. He edifies himself and It is time to come to Church edified ( built up instead of coming with our head hung low). Read the scriptures and you will find that the speaking in tongues is from Man to God. It can also be to man if interpreted.
Will they? Have you? Jesus died on the cross 2000 years ago. The Bible says about the baptisms of Jesus, "Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples" (John 4:2). I know there are many anti-christs in this world today, as well as false prophets claiming to be Christ. Perhaps you were baptized by one of them. So whatever baptism you are speaking of I am sure it is not in the Bible, unless you yourself were baptized 2000 years ago, an unlikely scenario.
If it is not of God, then what must it be of? You make the conclusion. The mighty rushing wind, and the cloven tongues of fire were one time events in history (as is the Day of Pentecost), just like the burning bush was for Moses. BTW, how many cloven tongues of fire have you seen lately? I have seen as many cloven tongues of fire as I have heard genuine tongues being spoken. None.
DHK
Good post atestring! Some people can't understand spiritual things pertaining to God due to the fact that they are spiritually discerned. In other words, they have to have the Spirit of God to understand the things of God.
Pray for them that God will fill them with His Spirit and open up their minds to the understand of His Word!
MEE
Take the verse in its context. 1Cor.14 was contrasting speaking to tongues to the gift of prophecy. The chapter, and this verse in particular was a rebuke to those misusing the gift of tongues. The gift of tongues was a gift given to the church, and only to the church, for the church's edification. There is no gift of the Spirit that is given for selfish purposes, as you have inferred here. All were given for the edification and benefit of the entire church. Consider:
healing--others in the church, not self.
helps--others in the church, not self.
teaching--others in the church, not self.
government--others in the church, not self.
miracles--for others in the church, not self.
prophecy--for others in the church, not self.
Whatever gift you name, it is always, always for others, and never for self. Charismatics use tongues for SELF. They say it is a prayer language. Or for edification of SELF. This is the humanistic lie. This misused verse does not teach that at all. It is a rebuke, not an encouragement. Paul was teaching "understanding." If there is no understanding for the whole church, then don't do it.
If you are speaking to yourself,
If you are speaking to God,
If you are speaking in the Spirit,
If you are speaking mysteries,
THEN DON'T!
Why? Because it does not edify the entire church. The entire church does not benefit. You are using the gift selfishly as it was never intended.
Having said all that, that is what Paul was teaching to the 1st century Christians, when they spoke in languages, which were real but foreign. That is what tongues were. But according to both 1Cor.13:8-13, and 1Cor.14:21,22 (especially the latter) they have ceased. Tongues are for a sign to the unbelieving Jew. How many unbelieving Jews are in your churches that need convincing that the gospel message is for today?
DHK