tongues

Thanks Dan Todd...very good explanation!

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]Yes it is a good answer MEE. It is God's language, not man's, and thus has nothing to do with tongue's, that which man speaks.
DHK

 

To take my comment a step farther - I'd like to quote John MacArthur:

"In a way infinitely beyond our understanding, these groanings represent what might be called intertrinitarian communication, divine articulations by the Holy Spirit to the Father."

 

Has your son really lost the assurance of His salvation?
Did he loose these other things because he goes to a particular church , or could he have lost them if he had stayed in the church you want him to go to.

 

Thanks Dan Todd...very good explanation!

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]Yes it is a good answer MEE. It is God's language, not man's, and thus has nothing to do with tongue's, that which man speaks.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I know it's talking about "groaning in the Spirit." I wasn't referring to "speaking in tongues."

I was telling atestring to notice Romans 8:26-27 where it talks about intercessory prayer, by the Spirit of God.

MEE

 

SpiritualMadMan said (concerning the case of argument on this thread):


This one is getting redundant and there is still more strife than I'd like to take part in

The whole case of bible study seems to take this approach. These internet forums are particularly bad, but overall, it seems that "Where two or more are gathered together, there will be strife in their midst".

Anyone have a remedy?

Singer

 

Has your son really lost the assurance of His salvation? Did he loose these other things because he goes to a particular church...


"Yes, my son has really lost the "assurance" of his salvation; yes, he did lose all those things as a result of satanic seduction. And yes, God is still chastising him.

 

Carol, back a couple pages ago, you said this:
""Good post atestring! Some people can't understand spiritual things pertaining to God due to the fact that they are spiritually discerned. In other words, they have to have the Spirit of God to understand the things of God.""


Do you believe, based on your statement that I am not God's child? (ie, a Heaven bound Christian).

If I am not saved, by what power then do I show the charity that I do for others? and by what authority do I lead worship at my church (sometimes) and run our AWANA JV program?

I do admire your love for God and you yearning to be as close to Him as possible. Your answers to the above questions will not change that, I just wanted to reassure you of that

In Christ our Lord,
Brian

 

Briguy,

You DO display a very charismatic love of God in your postings and yet I'm sure there are many on this board who wonder how that even happens due to the fact that you do not belong to the Pillar and Foundation Club.

Anyhow, I like your comment below:

"If I am not saved, by what power then do I show the charity that I do for others? and by what authority do I lead worship at my church (sometimes) and run our AWANA JV program?"

Our RCC friends also show charity and yet they are still striving for the perseverance of good works that will LEAD TO SALVATION in the judgement (they think).

My unchurchedness also is a playground where I can witness, do good works and lead the organizing of various gospel music presentations.
My unbaptized and unchurched state becomes an advantage to me because I can associate with those of all denominations......(to their dismay)..!!

So you're right, Brian, we each do our good works as we are individually led. The worst scenario is to expect those works to lead to salvation.

As for the spirit and tongues issue, have you ever allowed the Spirit of God to take over your tongue? It happened to me one time and it has given me boldness for the past quarter century. Don't be afraid of what God can do...don't quench the spirit. We all work according to that one and same Spirit.

Singer

 

I had decided to stay away from this board, but here I am again.

Brian, I believe that you are at a 'repented' stage, in your walk with God and you seem to be a very nice person, but...

You are like Cornelius, in the tenth chapter of Acts. You seem to love God, but you are lacking, as he was, under the Grace despensation.

After the "Gospel" was preached, by Peter, he and his household received the Holy Ghost,.."because they heard them speak in tongues" and they were commanded to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Cornelius loved God, but he needed the Spirit of God and water baptism, for the remission of sins.

Read Acts the tenth chapter and see if you don't come under the same category. The only difference is that Cornelius hadn't heard the 'Gospel.' So, he didn't know anything about repentance. This much you seem to have done.

I realize that you don't believe that "speaking in tongues" is the evidence of receiving the baptism of the Spirit and that you are convienced that water baptism is not a must for salvation.

Just keep in mind that you did ask me. OK?

MEE

 

MEE GIRL,

What?.....you were going to just up and quit this board without asking me?

Isn't it ironic how two people can seemingly be united on all issues but there will always be one come to surface that stands out.

Baptism for example....I like DHK's run on that, yours on tongues, Briguys on other issues, MikeS seems to have a heart for charity, 3AM has a heart for bible study. Ray B. has such common sense and a few newcomers here have good attributes.

Yet, that still isn't what saves.

Thanks for sticking around, MEE.

Singer

 

Thanks Singer!

I know that we don't agree about water baptism, but I do like your "down to earth" posts. It's one of the things that makes this board worth visiting.

MEE

 

But he is not saved because he may not be baptized. Is this what you may be inferring? How arrogant!! It shows the wickedness of the cult that you are in, that teaches directly contrary to what the Bible teaches. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
"Whosover shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." You don't believe the Bible MEE?

A total misinterpretation. Let's read the tenth chapter of Acts and see what really happened.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
--They heard the gospel while Peter was preaching was preaching and were saved (just like in Acts 2:41). Thus the Holy Ghost fell upon them, as He indwells every believer, and has ever since the Day of Pentecost. They were saved at this point. If not, then the Holy Ghost would be coming upon unsaved individuals.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
--They of the circumcicision were there (Jews). Remember that tongues were a sign to the Jews (1Cor.14:21,22), a sign to them that did not believe that the gospel was for the Gentiles. Thus God gave them them the gift of tongues for the benefit of the Jews. Again, would God have unsaved individuals speak in tongues??

Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
--The fact that they did speak in tongues in emphasized by Peter to the Jews. He declares also how they are magnifying God. Do unsaved individuals magnify God??

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
--The question is then put to them--Can any man forbid water (baptism) which have received the Holy Spirit (been saved) as well as we? Would Peter baptize unsaved people MEE? The obvious answer to both these questions is an absoule NO!

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
--This has nothing to do with their salvation, but a step of obedience after their salvation, which had already been completed in verse 44. Salvation is not progressive. It does not take place over a period of time. It is instantaneous. "Call upon the name of the Lord and thou shalt be saved." The moment a person calls upon the name of the Lord, he is saved; not when he is baptized. I wasn't baptized until two years after I was saved; after I had called upon the name of the Lord. If I had died before my baptism would I have gone to Hell according to your theology? Yes. That is heresy. But I had full assurance of my salvation, as I am sure Briguy does also. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. If you are trusting in baptism and possibly tongues for your salvation, you take away from the grace of God that saves, and are yourself in danger of being without salvation. You need to trust in Christ alone (not Christ plus baptism) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him alone, and you shall be saved.
DHK

 

MEE,

I know that we don't agree about water baptism, but I do like your "down to earth" posts. It's one of the things that
makes this board worth visiting.
Ah, a woman after my own heart.
Many would not agree with you for that comment however.

As for the baptism, DHK does kinda seem to have his ducks in a row on that issue. There's something I don't agree with him about and I think it's something to do with the tongues issue. It's nice to forget some things. I relish my tongues experience but don't see neither it nor baptism as a step toward salvation. Did I ever send you my testimony?

UnChurched and Unbaptized Singer

 

Hi Singer, thanks for the kind words before. I agree with MEE that your posts are down-to-earth and refreshing. Your heart shows strong and your love for God and others is obvious.

Carol, your right I did ask and so I accept your answer. I was going to read through Acts 10 and give you some feed back but brother DHK has already done that and did a great job. I see it the same way he did. When the Holy Spirit comes upon someone they are saved at that point. The Baptism the men under went was after and thus on that verse alone the "Baptism for salvation" doctrine can be put to rest. I am willing to explain any verse on Baptism you wish, either on this thread or a new one. I say that because I do not want you to think I would run from any verses.
One quick thing on Baptism. Baptism in the early church and in some ways now shows affiliation. In the early church when a believer was baptized it showed those around, that the person had made a commitment to this Jesus person and joined the group "The Way". Baptism then was a signing on the dotted line so to speak. Once done the person was open to much more persecution so it was a serious thing to get in that water. It is kind of like joining a local church today and becoming a member, it opens up accountability, etc... I could go on but this thread is on tongues. Anyway, I will let you deal with what DHK has said and what I just said before I add more. I care about you Carol and look forward to seeing you in Heaven someday. I will be there because I have trusted Christ, by faith to forgive my sins and clease me. I am not worthy of Heaven but Christ has cleaned me and made me worthy and the cleanser he used was not based in water, but was fully blood. Hope that made sense

DHK, thanks again for your great insight I really don't believe that Carol means to be arrogant or rude, I think she actually cares about us and whether we are really saved. I just wished she took a deeper look at the criteria by which she judges us

In Christ,
Brian

 

Brian, did you really want to hear what I had to say? No! You already had your mind made up. DHK, as you knew he would, responded with exactly what you wanted to hear. Sorry, I don't buy his interpretation of the Bible.

You may think that I'm running, but I'm not. After twenty-three pages, I'm tired of posting the same thing over and over. As one person put it, on this board, "if you want to know anything about tongues, this isn't the place to be."

If anyone is interested, go back and read some of my posts.

MEE

 

I have read them all MEE; every single one. The trouble is that you don't respond to the answers I give you.
Can an unsaved person receive the Holy Spirit?
Would Peter baptize an unsaved person?
DHK

 

What is the basis for believing that baptism saves anyhow?

I could baptize my dog, but that doesn't seem to be any magical formula for eternal life for her.

Singer

 

Hi Singer, I believe the basis is some poor interpretation of a few choice verses while at the same time ignoring many more verses. Verses that DHK used before like, "He who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" have to be ignored. I have at one time or another given an alternate interpretation for all baptism verses. DHK has given a detailed study on most Baptism verses yet many people just stick to what they were taught, not what scripture really says. I hope that was not arrogant sounding as it was not the intention.

Carol, When I first studied tongues and baptism I was open to what God had to say. Your right in that now my mind is basically made up because I won't try to change scripture to fit what I believe, I allowed scripture to form what I believe. If you believe in something strongly before you study the Bible on the subject, you will find a way to make the Bible fit your doctrine, rather then using the Bible to form your doctrine. Please don't get irritated with me I am just trying to be honest and call it the way I see it. I know I may be lumping you in with others that you may not deserve to be lumped together with. If that is the case I apologize.
DHK made some great points earlier and asked a couple great questions in his last post. Please answer and then we can continue this great discussion. Others may be bored with this thread but I am not. Thanks.

In Christian Love and concern,
Brian

 

(Briguy)
Hi Singer, I believe the basis is some poor interpretation of a few choice verses while at the same time ignoring many more verses. Verses that DHK used before like, "He who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" have to be
ignored.

(Singer)
Brian, not many of us have the resolve and charm that you use in your responses. As for myself, it seems I could say "Praise the Lord" and offend someone

My reaction time to those I might witness to is very short and I don't have time to open a bible and cross reference verses. I also may never see that person again and I've tried to use verses that can have the most impact and to promote the need for that person to believe in the person of Jesus Christ. I rather like Rom 10:9 that you suggest should be ignored and I like 1 John 5:5 (He that believeth; overcomes) and St John 3:36 and St John 11:25,26.

For myself, when I came to a belief in Jesus Christ, then He was able to work in my life. It didn't come through church attendance as I did not attend one at the time and it didn't come through bible study.

Confession and belief / faith came first and it is the stage that we each need to arrive at for God to be able to use us. Belief is not an action word that requires conformation to a given set of rules including baptism........for each denomination has their own set of rules and if we followed one set, we'd be out of compliance with the other 19,999.

Feel honored if I've confused you; Mr. Putnam and Co. and I aren't necessarily on the same page either.

Singer

 

We might differ slightly there. But let's examine the thought anyway.
"Belief is not an action word." I believe that it is, and that the Greeek teaches that it is.
If you put a chair in the middle of your living room and say to all your guests and family: "I believe I can jump over that chair." Will they believe you? You can stand there all day and all night and repeat: "I believe I can jump over that chair," but until you demonstrate your belief by actually jumping over the chair who is going to believe you. Faith or belief is an action word, that requires one to put their belief into action, or more accurately results in action.

That is not to say that we are saved by our works, such as baptism or any other work. It is to say that true belief results in those works. If I really believe (not just a mental assent) then that will result in fruit (the fruit of the Spirit), or works. (We are created unto good works). But salvation is by faith alone. That living faith results in works.
DHK