tongues

Good post atestring! Some people can't understand spiritual things pertaining to God due to the fact that they are spiritually discerned. In other words, they have to have the Spirit of God to understand the things of God.

Pray for them that God will fill them with His Spirit and open up their minds to the understand of His Word!

MEE [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]It would be a good post...EXCEPT that atestring forgot the very next verse:

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

 

Has anyone ever thought of distilling the tongues discussion into a pro/con comparison table and then posting it into some FAQ section of the Baptist Board? I ask this because there are now 21 pages to this topic with no end in sight. The thing has gotten kinda redundant. Of course, I may be part of the problem, as far as that goes, but it's just an idea.

 

Good post atestring! Some people can't understand spiritual things pertaining to God due to the fact that they are spiritually discerned. In other words, they have to have the Spirit of God to understand the things of God.

Pray for them that God will fill them with His Spirit and open up their minds to the understand of His Word!

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]It would be a good post...EXCEPT that atestring forgot the very next verse:

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Don,
I hope that when you prayed that you are edified(built up) Jude 20 commands us to be built up ( or edified)
I also hope that when you go to church you go there already edified so that you can be a giver rather than just a reciever. I hope that you are so edified that you edify others.
Some people think that it is selfish to be edified but a football player that builds up his muscles has already added something to his team and if all the players are built in their muscles the team is conditioned to win. That would not be selfish. Why not be built up spiritually when we go to Church. And while your at it be deified (built up) around sinners or prodicals.
i hope you influence many by being edified.

 

Hi Atestring, Remember we are speaking of a spirtual gift here, not anything else. We should build ourselves strong in the Lord, indeed, but not at the expense of violating clear biblical teaching. You have to apply 1 Cor. 12:7 to tongues. You do not have to apply it to prayer or reading the Bible, which of course build us up. Also as DHK pointed out kind of indirectly, that when Paul said that He who speaks in tongues edifies himself, that was a negative statement. That was a bad thing not a good thing, because it was a misuse of a real gift. Paul was saying STOP doing that and that is why the whole slew of verses that follow were written. Speaking mysteries to God????? how can that be good?? Like God needs us to speak mysteries to him. There are no mysteries to God. That staement is a rebuke. I have heard commentaries say that a true translation of that verse would be "a god", not God. Either way it is negative and not for us to do. We need to keep 1 Cor. 14 in context here or it is hard to understand. All for now,
In Christ,
Brian

 

Briguy: "Speaking mysteries to God????? "

My bibles don't indicate the same as perchance
your bible relates:

1 Corinthians 14:2 (The Message):
If you praise him in the private language of tongues,
God understands you but no one else does,
for you are sharing intimacies just between you and him."

1 Corinthians 14:2 (nKJV):
For he who speaks in a tongue
does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him;
however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:2 (NRSV):
For those who speak in a tongue
do not speak to other people but to God; for nobody understands them,
since they are speaking mysteries in the Spirit.

I.Corinthians XIIII:2 (KJV1611):
For he that speaketh in an unknowen tongue,
speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God : for no
man +vnderstandeth him :
howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Sidenote: + Gr. heareth

 

Does Jude 20 command us to be built up or edified by speaking in tongues??

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

DHK

 

Hi Ed, context is everything, especially here.
KJV 1 Cor. 14 1-9
""1] Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
[2] For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
[3] But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
[4] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
[5] I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
[6] Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
[7] And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
[8] For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
[9] So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.""

The reason that it has been said that "God" in verse 2 could be "a god" is because at that time speaking in gibberish to pagan gods was common place, a part of the culture, so to speak. Paul goes on after to say negative things about tongues, in fact he says they are useless without interpretation. He even ends the verses I listed with the point that a tongue just said without interpretation (and if it is gibberish it especially has no interpretation) is just like speaking to the air, you know it just kind of goes away. That is what is meant by the battle cry idea. If a trumpeter is supposed to play a certain tune to call the troops to battle but plays a tune noone knows instead, nothing will happen, the troops will not understand and not prepare for battle. The point is keep verse 2 in line with the following verses and then you will see what context it is meant in.

Hey Ed, you never did take my challenge from a few pages ago. If the verse in 1 Cor. 14 that says tongues are a sign does not mean what DHK, Walguy, and I have said, what does it mean??? I will except an "I dont know", "I need more time", but not just being ignored . Thanks much.

In Christian love and concern,
Brian

[ January 28, 2004, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Context is NOTHING here if you don't understand what
"speaketh in an unknown tongue" means.

Here "unknown tongue" obviously means a speaking
that nobody but God and one with the gift of
translation knows what they are saying.

Do not confuse this with the miracle of hearing:
where the words spoken in one language is
heard in the language another understands.

When the miracle of hearing is present, there is
NO NEED for a translator gift.

I Corinthians 14:22 (KJV1769)::
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe,
but to them that believe not:
but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not,
but for them which believe.

Unbelievers do not understand prophesying, but they
don't know they don't understand.
Unbelievers do not understand unknown tongues, but they
know they don't understand.
So tongues are a sign to unbelievers, prophesying
a sign to believers -- a sign that something Godly is
going on.

 

Ed, I thank you for your answer. I do not agree with you but I gave the challange and you responded and I commend you for that. Many here just ignore things and so I thought that you perhaps didn't have an answer but you did, and an interesting one at that.

I really believe that the interpreters of the KJV put "unknown" before tongue when they believed that Paul was speaking of gibberish. It was there way of saying in a laungage that doesn't make sense, or isn't a real language. The real gift of tongues was to speak in a known language not an unknown one. It wasn't just saying words to the air that no one understood, it was communication between a speaker and someone/s who did not speak the language. An interpreter would interpet what was said to the rest of the people so ALL were edified which Paul says spiritual gifts are for.
What can me or you possibly gain by saying words that we don't understand? that nobody else understands? how can that profit "the body(believers)"? Paul says it can't and in fact is self-edifying which has to be wrong by the nature of what a spiritual gift is for. Think on that for a bit

Your answer to the "sign" verse took me by surprize and I just think you are reading something into the text that is not there. LOok at this: KJV 1 Cor. 14:
"[21] In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
[22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
[23] If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
[24] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
[25] And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
[26] How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
[27] If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
[28] But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."

Now, I must say there is a problem here as the "unknown" word pops up and counterdicts what I said before. I believe there was a mistake made here and that unknown was not the true intention. That may sound lame but when looking at the whole of the chapter it seems that at this point paul is speaking of the real gift, unknown to the general assembly but stll a real language, and that of someone who spoke the language that joined them. The gatherings back then were different because the different languages and dialects of the people varried a lot in small geographical areas. Tongues were needed to edify all who came to the service. But only a very limited number of speakers were supposed to use tongues to speak to the foreigners as not to make the service last too long. A tongue speaker could only speak if a person who could interpret was present, meaning that they knew ahead of time who the "gifted" interpreters were. The tongue speakers could not speak because without interpreters the "assembly" could not be edified. Hope that makes some sense. Remember when Paul says unbelievers it is directly after a verse that speaks of unbelieving Isreal, and that is who he is talking about, he would not change cocepts that abruptly. Anyway some thoughts to ponder. Take care,
In Christ,
Brian

[ January 29, 2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Does Jude 20 command us to be built up or edified by speaking in tongues??

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I believe that praying in the Holy Ghost is a distinct type of prayer.
It could be similar to the verse in I corinthians that says I will pray in the Spirit and with my understanding also which tells me that there is a distinct type of prayerin the spirit and prayer in our understanding.

 

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

None of these verses have anything to do with speaking (or praying) in tongues. The does not speak of a prayer language in tongues. There is not a verse in the Bible to back such a concept. “Praying in the Spirit” is a phrase used in both Eph. 6:18 and Jude 20. One can clearly see from the context of Eph.6:18 that it has nothing to do with tongues. Paul is urging them to put on all the armor of God that they may stand against the wiles of the devil. This would include the helmet of salvation, the sword of the spirit, the shield of faith, loins of truth, feet shod with the gospel of peace, and the breastplate of righteousness. But then he says “praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit.” This also is part of the armor of God. It certainly has nothing to do with tongues. Paul continues to add in the next verse a very specific request:
Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,”
One would not be speaking in tongues while at the same time praying for Paul that Paul would be speaking boldly. This does not make sense. Paul rebukes the Corinthians because in speaking in tongues they speak in mysteries and know not what they speak. How can the Ephesians pray intelligently for Paul if they are speaking in tongues and know not what they are praying? How can they be standing against the wiles of the devil, putting on the armor of God, praying and making supplications, all in the Spirit, and yet without understanding? Praying in the Spirit has nothing to do with tongues. We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit. We are commanded to pray in the Spirit. We are commanded to walk in the Spirit. All of this has nothing to do with tongues. Why should anything connected with the Holy Spirit of God automatically be connected with tongues??
DHK

 

I agree atestring! Check out Romans 8:26-27
26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Atestring, you may understand this, as well as myself, but remember one has to have the Spirit of God, in order to understand the things of the Spirit.

MEE

 

I am slowly recovering from 'shock'...

Am now the church treasurer... Oh... Joy...

Very busy weekend...

Ice Storm Monday...

Power late yesterday, finally...
(Power Crews and thousands *still* without power could *still* use your prayers.)

Internet at home inoperative...

Perhaps, though, and I am thinking seriously in this direction...

It would be better to address a single issue regarding tongues on each of several threads?

This one is getting redundant and there is still more strife than I'd like to take part in.

 

Hey~MEE! (Btw, you're very pretty)! "The way I understand Rom.8:26 is like when I am soooo distraught over a situation, my son, for instance, and I am just at a loss as to "how" to pray or "what" to pray for anymore...

But God KNOWS my aching heart is breaking & He KNOWS I have lifted this boy so many times in prayer...but I just can't think anymore! My mouth opens, but nothing will come out.

I need to keep praying, but sometimes I can't, so I truly believe on my behalf, the Holy Spirit does it for me. This also happened a time when I was so depressed(over losing my mama who lived with me for many years).

I may be very wrong in my assumption, but hopefully, Bro.DHK will clear this up if I've confused us even more.

 

MEE, did you ever notice in Romans that the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. MEE, you cannot utter these sayings no matter how hard you try because they CANNOT be uttered. They do not refer to tongues because they cannot be uttered. It is a work of the Holy Spirit, and of the Holy Spirit alone. To claim this as tongues is just plain arrogance. It plainly says that you cannot utter these sayings, so why are you claiming you can do something that the Scripures says you cannot do?
Praying in the Spirit is exactly how Granny described it. The Holy Spirit aids her in her praying for her son. He gives her the strength to keep on praying. Check out my previous post, and study Eph.6:18. You can't pray in the Spirit (defining it as tongues) and be putting on the armor of God, all the while be praying intelligently for others.
DHK

 

Granny, thanks for the complement.

Question: Is your son such a bad person because he attends an Apostolic Church? Do you feel that he doesn't have salvation?

Oh, I'm sure DHK will come up with some "unbiblical" explanation. He always does!

MEE

 

I notice MEE you never come up with a Biblical explanation after I have posted. Why not? Is it because you do not have one. What is your definition of "groanings which CANNOT be uttered?"
DHK

 

MEE~"No, my son is not a "bad" person for attending the 'apostolic church' & yes, he is still saved. (He asked the Lord to save him when he was 10).

Tho' he has never "lost" that salvation, he has lost: (1)the "assurance" of his salvation, (2)the wife of his youth, (3)his first-born son, (4)his job, (5)his home, (6)his health, (7)his mind.

 

"groanings which CANNOT be uttered" is God the Holy Spirit's language to God the Father.

I would never presume to think that I could ever understand anything God said to Himself - unless He made it very clear - as He does in His written word - the Bible!

 

Thanks Dan Todd...very good explanation!

Now, take Romans 8:26-27 and apply it...

26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Isn't God wonderful? He even helps us pray for when we don't know what the need is...down deep where the problem exists.

God is awesome!

MEE

[ January 30, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: MEE ]