Witnessing to 7th day adventist

I walk at the gym in the morning and have had opportunity to witness to a Seventh Day Adventist. He is struggling with assurance of salvation - he thinks that since he can "choose" salvation then he can also "unchoose" to be saved. The doctrine of hell is also a concern for him. Can you help me think through this from his point of view and from the Scripture's point of view?

He doesn't choose salvation. God, in His sovereign love, chose to send Jesus, and this person was drawn by the Spirit to faith in the risen Christ. He can, I suppose, unchoose it by turning away from the faith.

I am a Seventh Day Adventist and have no problems with the concept of Salvation, neither about the topic of "Hell".

To start, God does not force anybody to be saved, neither does He force them to stay that way. Rv:3:20: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."


God draws the sinner to Himself by love but anybody can choose whether or not to resist this love. Otherwise if forced, it would not at all be love.

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.


The Bible says "To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts." That is, THIS DAY ... YOU need to decide whether or not you will resist or accept the drawing of God's Spirit... and it is the same every day. This is why the Apostle Paul said, "I die DAILY." It is a daily choice.


Every day we have that choice of whether or not we want to turn away from God and allow our hearts to be hardened by sin.


Hebrews:3:13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


One needs to realize that he or she can be taken out of the book of life.. and that the choice is there's. You can be in the book of life and you can be taken OUT of it as well... and the choice depends on what YOU do.

Revelation:3:5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Read the following passage very carefully, and take notice that there are things YOU are admonished to do on your part to "make your calling and election SURE" and pay attention to the fact that Peter tells us that IF we do these things THEN our election will be sure and we will be granted an entrance into Heaven (notice also he doesnt say all we need to do is claim we "believe" in Jesus, for even the devils believe and tremble):

2 Peter Chapter 1:
1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

..and just as an aside... notice the last thing on the rung of this ladder is CHARITY which is the same thing as LOVE. In Romans 13:8-10 we are told that LOVE is exactly the same thing as keeping the ten commandments. Romans 13:8-10: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Jesus said the whole law rests upon the principles of love to God and love to our neighbor... keeping the commandments. If we do not do this, we will NOT be granted an entrance into heaven... take the Word of God just as it reads. Rv:22:14: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." You can decide that you have no respect for God or His government at any time and walk away... the choice is yours.


As far as the topic of Hell goes... I do not see how one can possibly read the materials on this topic that Seventh Day Adventists believe and come away being confused about what "Hell" actually is. Unfortunately, most all the Protestant world has adopted the Roman Catholic concept of Hell, which actually was derived from paganism.
You can read what we believe about Hell here:

http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/hellfire.htm

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Claudia Thompson,

http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org

[ February 18, 2005, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

Claudia_T

You are a very different Seventh Day Adventist than thosee from the past history of the church. If one goes back and reads what the early Adventists believe they certainly do not agree with many of those who claim to be Adventists today.

Originally posted by Linscott:
I walk at the gym in the morning and have had opportunity to witness to a Seventh Day Adventist. He is struggling with assurance of salvation - he thinks that since he can "choose" salvation then he can also "unchoose" to be saved. The doctrine of hell is also a concern for him. Can you help me think through this from his point of view and from the Scripture's point of view?

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What I would suggest is looking at it from a slightly different angle. If he is struggling with his assurance of Salvation, maybe it might be a good idea to go back a little further to the fact that Gods love for him is more than he can comprehend. Many people just do not seem to understand how much God loves them and what that might mean to them.

I would also see if there is a way that you could get him to read the book by Charles Swindoll called "The Grace Awakening". That is one of the best books I have ever read.

Well first of all Adventists are not Calvinist, (As Claudia's post illustrates) they tend to be more along then lines of "consistently Arminians" than Calvinist.

(This is of course true of other churches as well - but for the sake of clarity - Adventists)

So getting into a debate with him over the assurance of salvation based on the need to first be a 4 point Calvinist (which are the Calvinist's with the best story about assurance) or based on the need to accept OSAS (which is best defended from a 4PT Calvinist POV) - is not going to be successful, because - he is not a Calvinist.

If I may offer a suggestion - try going at it from the standpoint of Romans 8:16 - I don't see how he can argue against that. In 1John 5 and in Romans 8 the point is clear - it is the divine - realtime, living testimony of God directly and personnally that conveys assurance.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by gb93433:
Claudia_T

You are a very different Seventh Day Adventist than thosee from the past history of the church. If one goes back and reads what the early Adventists believe they certainly do not agree with many of those who claim to be Adventists today.

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If you are talking about incidentals or annectdotal stories - that is one thing.

Certainly it is safe to compare the actual views in the fundamental beliefs doctrinal statements of the church - to whatever the individual believes to see how close they are to actual Adventism.

In Christ,

Bob

IF you are saved the bible says your sealed.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption .

Tere's something really cool about God's seal on something or someone.

Rev 5:1 ¶ And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

If your sealed, you CAN NOT unseal yourself.

A typical Calvinistic teaching is God only died for a select few, so the book of life book of life would only contain saved people in it. That doesn't work, because Jesus died for everyone, and the verse states that Jesus will blot out some names. But Jesus said, I will never leave you or forsake you. That being true, there remains only one solution. When Jesus finished his work on the cross he died for everyone.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Seeing he is the Saviour of all men, ALL MEN must have been in that book at one time(which would explain how a baby who dies would go to heaven, not knowing right from wrong)!!! If you die without recieving Christ's blood atonement, your name is bloted out!!

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

But wait, isn't that a works based salvation???
NO!!!Compare scripture with scripture.

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

If you believe you have to add works to the blood, you never were saved.

In Matt 18 Christ teaches the hard lesson of "forgiveness revoked". And ends the lesson with these words "SO Shall My Father do to EACH OF you IF YOU DO NOT...".

In Matt 6 Christ teaches us the Lord's prayer and says that IF WE as saints DO NOT forgive others - neither will we be forgiven.

In Heb 6 Paul tells us of those who HAVE escaped the corruption in this world and HAVE tasted the heavenly gift of salvtion - falling away and says it is impossible to renew them to that saved state.

In Gal 5 Paul warns explicitly of those who have "Fallen from grace".

It is a clear teaching that an Arminian would find a consistent Bible basis to support.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by Glory2God:

If you believe you have to add works to the blood, you never were saved.

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Hi Glory2God,

Faith is, that which we believe.

Jesus has taught us what His Father expects of us.

We believe Him so we obey Him.

Our works is an expression of our obedience to our faith.

James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

If we don't follow what we believe our faith is dead, it means nothing to God.

James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

The blood of Jesus is applied to us and cleanses us from sin when we walk according to His Father's light/truth.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

We are sealed until the day of redemption...hmmm, we don't have redemption yet?

We are sealed by the Spirit of truth. Once we receive the truth it seals us, we are now accountable to it until the day of redemption. It can either save us through our obedience to it or it can harden us through our resisting of it.

John 16:13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

2 Peter 2:20-21 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

1 John 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

So9rry, sports fans, but I have a problem with everything Ellen Gould White wrote. She definitely made more than one false prophecy.

As for SDA preacher/teacher/official Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson, it was HIS error-filled book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, that started the current KJVO myth.

As interesting as all that is rc3 - the point remains - as stated from Matt 18 (forgiveness revoked) above, Heb 6, Matt 6, Gal 5 (Fallen from grace)... The Arminian view is correct.

However - as pointed out earlier - to convey the correct view on the assurance of salvation to an Arminian (I mean Adventists like me) - you have to be Bible based and consistent. (Believe me - it the method I use when dealing with Adventists like me)

And that means going to Rom 8:16 and 1John 5. The real living presence and witness of the Holy Spirit is the source of living assurance of salvation.

As we found in Matt 7 -- simply "saying Lord Lord" does not cut it.

As we found in Romans 2:13-16 - simply "hearing" the right teaching without being a DOER -- "does not cut it" in terms of the kind of Justification that is the subject of Romans 2.

11 For there is no partiality with God[b/].
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Click to expand...

In Christ,

Bob

WOW!!! Thanks for all the help! Being a simpleton, though, I am going to go back to the basics.

Eph. 2:8,9 tell us that it is by GRACE that we are saved and that NOT OF OURSELVES but a gift of God. If our salvation is a free gift from God Almighty then it would be a works based salvation to say that "we" did something to get it and "we" can do something to get rid of it.

John 10:27-29 tells us that when you are saved you are place SECURELY in Jesus hand then the Father puts His hand EXTRA SECURELY around us. There is no way that a truly saved person can ever become "not saved."

Thank you Claudia for your time in explaining his point of view to me. I do, however, have some more questions to ask. I have done some research on my own but I would like more help before I have opportunity to talk to this gentleman again.

Origination of SDA - I am stunned by what I have read concerning William Miller's date setting (which proved to be wrong) then Ellen White picking up the baton and calling it the beginning of an Investigative Judgment. I don't get it?!?! How can this be the beginning of your denomination when the Lord clearly spelled out for us the imminent return of Christ. No man (not even when you twist any number in the Scriptures) can know when the return of Christ will occur.

I hope this does not come across as condescending but I am interested in finding out.

My next questions concerns the SDA's doctrine of hell and the body being immortal.

From what I have read the SDA believe that a person is not naturally immortal. When a person dies, they remain unconscious until they are resurrecred. Eternal life is a gift which God gives only to righteous Christians; the rest will be ultimately annihilated. Thus, they do not believe that a person goes to heaven or hell immediately upon death.

Is this true and will you help me think this through from the SDA's point of view and also from a Calvinists point of view?

Don't be deceived...the whole SDA thingy is phony as a football bat. it's the invention of ONE PERSON...Ellen Gould White, who picked up Miller's false ball after he dropped it. It's not of GOD...it's of WHITE. It's merely a cult, akin to the Mormon cult.

Look at some of SDA'a cultettes...JW...Branch Davidians....and at some of their false doctrines...

1.) They claim to be the exclusive true church, and that Jesus saves ONLY through their church.(Shame on those who died befoee 1844!!)

2. They place the writings of White on equal footing with the Bible.
Ron Graybill was asst. secretary of the E.G. white Estate. In their Ministry magazine, issue of October 1981, he wrote on page 8:

"We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other."

Graybill later said, after he carefully noted her false prophecies,"..."we dare not use Ellen White as the final arbiter in matters of doctrine". Realizing his earlier errors and the falsehood of his earlier statement, he resigned.

3.) They teach that Christ entered the heavenly temple in 1844 to begin His "investigatory judgment" and to COMPLETE HIS ATONEMENT! He, who was sinless, paid the FULL price and made FULL atonement in our behalf ON THE CROSS!

4.) While they say Christ bears our sins, they also teach the completely-unScriptural doctrine that He, in turn, will lay those sins on Satan.

5.) They teach that JESUS is the archangel Michael...chief of the angels while still God. However, Daniel 10:13 calls Mike one of the chief princes, while know JESUS isn't one of any group except the HOLY TRINITY!

6.) They deny the existence of eternal hell, in direct contrast to SCRIPTURE.

7.) They teach "soul sleep", the doctrine that one's soul is unconscious after death until judgment. They teach Luke 16 was only a parable, an illustration. BUT...DID JESUS TEACH FAIRY TALES? NO!! He taught ONLY THE TRUTH! And he taught more about HELL than he did HEAVEN!

Notice I didn't touch upon their Sabbath stuff. There's plenty of other falsehoods to make SDA a cult.

There are several branches that've split from the main SDA group, but if they practice any of the above, they're still cultettes descended from the main one, same as the Jehovah False Witnesses are.

Bob said --
As interesting as all that is rc3 - the point remains - as stated from Matt 18 (forgiveness revoked) above, Heb 6, Matt 6, Gal 5 (Fallen from grace)... The Arminian view is correct.

However - as pointed out earlier - to convey the correct view on the assurance of salvation to an Arminian (I mean Adventists like me) - you have to be Bible based and consistent. (Believe me - it the method I use when dealing with Adventists like me)

And that means going to Rom 8:16 and 1John 5. The real living presence and witness of the Holy Spirit is the source of living assurance of salvation.

As we found in Matt 7 -- simply "saying Lord Lord" does not cut it.

As we found in Romans 2:13-16 - simply "hearing" the right teaching without being a DOER -- "does not cut it" in terms of the kind of Justification that is the subject of Romans 2.

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Originally posted by Linscott:
WOW!!! Thanks for all the help! Being a simpleton, though, I am going to go back to the basics.

Eph. 2:8,9 tell us that it is by GRACE that we are saved and that NOT OF OURSELVES but a gift of God.

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Ok then "keeping it simple" - here is a simple idea - ALL the texts given above "have to be true" not just your preferred part of the Bible!

This simple principle is that 1 point does not determine a line nor 2 points a plane. You need "The set" to get the right picture.

See?

God's Word Said --

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

11 For there is no partiality with God[b/].
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

-------------------------------------------------

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But Linscott said

Originally posted by Linscott:
If our salvation is a free gift from God Almighty then it would be a works based salvation to say that "we" did something to get it and "we" can do something to get rid of it.

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The free gift of salvation in no ways invalidates the obvious statements in scripture as listed above. It is a gift but in an arminian system it must be CHOSEN and it must CONTINUE to be CHOSEN.

As Paul says in Phil 3 FORGETTING that which is behind and PRESSING ON..

As God's Word says in 1Cor 9 "Buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to other I MYSELF should be disqualified".

A myopic view of scripture that seeks only one kind of text to build the complete view - is called "error".

But Linscott said --

Linscott said
John 10:27-29 tells us that when you are saved you are place SECURELY in Jesus hand then the Father puts His hand EXTRA SECURELY around us. There is no way that a truly saved person can ever become "not saved."

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The text does NOT say you lose your ability to choose - it says Satan can not force you out. No person CAN separate us from the love of God. No man can take us away.

But that is not the same thing as "you lose your free will" - as some CAlvinist think.

HENCE the problem Christ identifies in MAtt 18 of "forgiveness revoked".


See?

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by Linscott:
[QB] Thank you Claudia for your time in explaining his point of view to me. I do, however, have some more questions to ask. I have done some research on my own but I would like more help before I have opportunity to talk to this gentleman again.

Origination of SDA - I am stunned by what I have read concerning William Miller's date setting (which proved to be wrong) then Ellen White picking up the baton and calling it the beginning of an Investigative Judgment. I don't get it?!?! How can this be the beginning of your denomination when the Lord clearly spelled out for us the imminent return of Christ.

Click to expand...

#1 - you seem to be in a deep fog of erroneous ideas and revisionist history.

#2. Here are some actual facts to go with that mix you have.

In Walter Martin's book "Kingdom of the Cults" He gives some very good Historic background on Adventists from the standpoint of someone who is opposed to the doctrines of Adventism. Consider reading it. Allow some light on the subject.

(Instructive that he explains in the book that he put the subject of Adventism in the appendix to the book because he found no way to justify
Hoekema's shoddy work regarding Adventist being a cult.)

Once the Adventists got started - the BIG complaint from evangelicals was that Adventists taught PREMILLENIALISM!!

Get it??

Here is the quote.

Kingdom of the Cults – by Walter Martin page 419

From the beginning the Adventists were regarded with grave suspicion by the great majority of evangelical Christians, principally because the Seventh-day Adventists were premillennial in their eschatology.

That is, they believed that Christ would come before the millennium and so placed themselves squarely in opposition to the predominant postmillennial and amillennial schools of thought of that era. The “Great Disappointment of 1844” and the collapse of the Millerite movement naturally brought premillennialism into disrepute. Certain authors of the time considered premillennarians “peculiar” even to the point of condemning premillennialism outright and dubbed as “Adventist” all who held that view of eschatology. This is especially interesting when we consider that premillennialism is an accepted school of thought in eschatology today and that those who hold postmillennial and amillennial views are considered by the premillennarians to be peculiar.

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The Millerites had no churches - it was a revival movement among the churches that did not call for a new demoniation. IT was "somewhat" like the Charismatic movement today - revivals and in this case an emphasis on the second coming instead of the gifts of the Spirit.

As for the idea that Christ went into the Most Holy Place as High Priest in 1844 instead of coming to earth - that was the POV of a man by the name of Hiram Edson not Ellen White.

Linscott

No man (not even when you twist any number in the Scriptures) can know when the return of Christ will occur.

I hope this does not come across as condescending but I am interested in finding out.

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Finally - something that is correct.

The Millerite movement was incorrect as to the event - they thought it was the very day of the 2nd coming - when in fact it was the Daniel 7 event clearly described with books opened and the court sitting for judgment.

See?

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by Linscott:
My next questions concerns the SDA's doctrine of hell and the body being immortal.

From what I have read the SDA believe that a person is not naturally immortal. When a person dies, they remain unconscious until they are resurrecred. Eternal life is a gift which God gives only to righteous Christians; the rest will be ultimately annihilated. Thus, they do not believe that a person goes to heaven or hell immediately upon death.

Is this true and will you help me think this through from the SDA's point of view and also from a Calvinists point of view?

Click to expand...

While OSAS and the basis of assurance etc - can be different between Calvinists and Arminians (Remember that Adventists are Arminian) - the Bible teaching on the fact that man is mortal does not divide along Calvinst vs Arminian lines.

In 1Thess 4 Paul says the saints sleep in death (he does not say their decaying rotting corpse is sleeping).

In 1Cor 15 Paul says the saints sleep at death.

In John 11 Christ said the "Lazarus" the person - is "asleep - I go to wake HIM".

This is "the easy part".

Obviously sleep is not literal - it is simply a way to convey the Bible fact that the saints are not active or conscious at that time. They have no thought at all - the moment of death is like the moment of resurrection to the dead - it is all the same moment in time for them. But the living count time between those two events.

In 1Cor 15 Paul says we get a new immortal body at the resurrection - and not before. He is right.

In 1Thess 4 and in 1Cor 15 Paul points out that the HOPE for the saints regarding the dead is in the resurrection that takes place at the return of Christ. We see John show that event in Rev 19-20 where he calls it THE FIRST resurrection.

In Christ,

Bob

robycop3 said
1.) They claim to be the exclusive true church, and that Jesus saves ONLY through their church.(Shame on those who died befoee 1844!!)

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I have never objected to someone capable of making a Bible case for anything I have posted in opposition to my views (something you have yet to attempt) - but I don't understand how someone can be so mixed as to not even know WHAT they are debating against!!

Do you think that if you make up history and doctrine FOR ME - I will one day think of it as Adventist???

Lets say for the sake of argument that I wanted to go on a little tirade against Adventists but like you I knew nothing of factual value to use. Lets say that I had no Bible position upon which to base my tirade (as seems to be your case).

I "would choose" to become informed about that which I oppose so I could at least effectively and efficiently oppose it rather than simply shooting blindly in the dark at a ghost.

See here is the value of actually saying something that is true - it has value.

If a non-SDA could get a really good point from you and then use it on an SDA effectively wouldn't that be great!!??

So why hand them things that are bogus from front to back as in the case above? You are simplyl giving them false hopes and when they find out that SDAs don't teach what you claim and that history does not support it AND EVEN anti-SDA sources wont leap off that cliff with you - they will feel betrayed by someone like you.

There are so many areas of REAL difference it is a shame you can't stick to fact. Make it easy on yourself and on those who choose to believe you - give them the real deal.

Oh yes and one more thing - give the whole concept of actually making a Bible based case for some point of difference - a try. One of your areas of difficulty is that if all you do is "read propaganda" you will never know which part is true and which is bogus - but if you read the bible and have a Bible-based belief that differs with your opponent you are on solid ground.

Think about it. It could open up a whole new world for your approach.

In Christ,

Bob