Witnessing to 7th day adventist

[BobRyan]

Bob said --

#2 ...Does the prophet submit to the message of the vision just as I would have to if I found it to be from God?

Christ said --

15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Steaver said -

you go on to give an example of a "true" prophet who did not submit to the message, (Baalam) yet you believe his message because the Scripture declares it was from God.

But then you say you would not want to trust a person like this!?!

Is this where you make the case for following the council of Baalam?

Steaver said --
You see the test is worthless!

Your argument is with Christ in Matt 7 -- HE explicitly says this is a test of a prophet.

Thoughts?

Steaver
So I don't see that I can test EGW with this so called "first step". So what would be the next step so to speak?

I fail to see how the first step (Isaiah 8:20) would not be possible to test. I gave examples with Purgatory, Calvinism, Arminianism, OSAS -- any prophet that speaks to any issues like that as part of a message from God - (claiming that God was taking a position on one of those - by implication) "could" be tested.

My argument is that Ellen White claimed to have messages from God that have huge implications on every day doctrine - that amounts to a "pro-Arminian", "Anti-OSAS", Rapture-at-the-second-coming, no-talking-spirits-of-the-dead, Ten-commandments-are-still-valid, ... etc etc POV.

I can't imagine how any could look at those topics and claim that such statements are "not testable" by the Bible - sola scriptura!

Help me understand how that could possibly be.

Here are two easy ones. Ellen White claims that God has informed her that at the end of time the two great errors that will impact mankind - will deal with the idea that God's Ten Commandments can be edited or abolished and the notion that humans are somehow immortal such that dead people can actually communicate with us.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Here are two easy ones. Ellen White claims that God has informed her that at the end of time the two great errors that will impact mankind - will deal with the idea that God's Ten Commandments can be edited or abolished and the notion that humans are somehow immortal such that dead people can actually communicate with us.

And this makes her a Prophet because these things are true??

Folks have been preaching/teaching these two things long before Ellen ever said anything!

They were easy! Got anything new she revealed!

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Here are two easy ones. Ellen White claims that God has informed her that at the end of time the two great errors that will impact mankind - will deal with the idea that God's Ten Commandments can be edited or abolished and the notion that humans are somehow immortal such that dead people can actually communicate with us.

Originally posted by steaver:

And this makes her a Prophet because these things are true??

These specific claims (made in the form of claiming dream/vision from the Lord) are subject to "testing" - and clearly they "can be tested" to see if they match with what scripture would allow.

Steaver --

Folks have been preaching/teaching these two things long before Ellen ever said anything!

Quote please.

And please note the "specifics" regarding the end of time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Linscott]

WOW, you guys still hammering this out?!?!

Jennifer

 

[BobRyan]

Never give up.

And besides - Steaver has been very easy to talk with. He has a good christian spirit.

I am trying to argue that he should not accept Ellen White because testing her messages against the Bible from his POV would show that her messages (that she claims to be inspired by God) are not Baptist, or Calvinist in all aspects.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

And besides - Steaver has been very easy to talk with. He has a good christian spirit.

Thank you! And you as well!

These specific claims (made in the form of claiming dream/vision from the Lord) are subject to "testing" - and clearly they "can be tested" to see if they match with what scripture would allow.

Bob, if scripture allows it, then scripture already teaches it and Ellen just preaches it!

Can you show me in scripture where these two subjects are spoken of? If not, then how does that prove her message is from God? If so, then her message is nothing new.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

I can show that scripture supports the teaching that man's soul is not immortal and that the Ten commandments - and the Sabbath as one of them are kept by the saints in Rev 12.

But like Agabus predicting events in the NT - you can not find that exact event ALSO predicted in the OT scriptures used by the NT saints.

Agabus was not simply "parroting or paraphrasing scripture" but his prediction was valid.

Ellen White claims that God has revealed to her the nature of the last two great errors to be "leveraged" by Satan at the end of time central to the point of 2Thess 2 and the man of sin. She also describes the view that Satan himself appears in that 2Thess 2 model -- as Christ - as though he is the 2nd coming. She claims that prophets, apostles, dead relatives etc will be made to "Appear" to people as though the dead are speaking with us and confirming the words of Satan (the angel of light impersonating Christ).

That level of detail is not contained in scripture - just as the level of detail that you get in 1Thess 4 or that David gets from Nathan on the temple is not "mentioned" in scripture. John provides a "level of detail" in revelation regarding the first resurrection (that of the Holy and Blessed - the saints - the dead in Christ) and then the 1000 years and then the second resurrection (those over whom the second death DOES have power).

That level of "detail" does not exist in scripture prior to that point. But the concept of resurrection and the fact that it happens at the 2nd coming is already there in scripture.

There is no basis whatsoever for claiming that prophets in the OT and NT only "paraphrased scripture" whether they are canonical Bible writers or are among the many mentined in scripture for which we have no "book" (no book of Nathan ... no book of Agabus... etc).

Here again the point we discuss is in fact the GENERAL "nature of the gift" as the Bible defines it.

(Ellen White may be the motivation and incentive for the discussion - but the details proofs facts that define the gift are still just those that the Bible defines)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Ellen White claims that God has revealed to her the nature of the last two great errors to be "leveraged" by Satan at the end of time central to the point of 2Thess 2 and the man of sin. She also describes the view that Satan himself appears in that 2Thess 2 model -- as Christ - as though he is the 2nd coming. She claims that prophets, apostles, dead relatives etc will be made to "Appear" to people as though the dead are speaking with us and confirming the words of Satan (the angel of light impersonating Christ).

Ok....has this happened?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

No; this is a prediction about how the world ends.

My point is that one would have to already have the same view on the immortality of the soul and on the validity of God's Ten Commandments to come to the point of accepting this "sola scriptura".

If I were not convinced that this is what scripture taught I might argue that the dead CAN come and speak the way Moses did on the mt of transfiguration with Christ pre-cross. That might open a huge door for me to say -- well at the end of time - maybe the Apostles and Mary and Pope-Peter etc all do come back from the dead (without an actual resurrection) and endorse the words of Christ - at the reign of Christ on earth.

And I might also argue that the predicted statements of Christ about nailing his own Ten Commandments to the cross are exactly what I would expect Him to say - so this prediction that it is the "bad guys" that are doing all this - must be wrong.

Indeed - there would be a huge "alternative".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Ok Bob, since we are never going to agree enough to get beyond "step one", allow me to just move on to another thought.

What does a Christian forfeit if they have rejected Ellen as a Prophet and has chosen not to embrace all the positions created by her writings? Is a person's salvation at stake? Rewards? Punishments?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

I am not sure what you are asking. So I will give you some choices.

#1. If you are asking about saints outside the Adventist church...

There are saints in the Catholic, Lutheran and Baptist churches - not just Adventists. It is not likely that those Catholics and Lutherans are reading Ellen White.

Further it is not likely that anyone would be following her writings without first agreeing with the Bible positions taken by the Adventist church.

#2. If your question is "What happens when it turns out that all the saints in the churches that are not Adventist -- DON't go along with the doctrines of the Adventist church" then the answer is "saints are saints -- still".

#3. If you are asking whether people in non-SDA churches have some "obligation" for doctrines that are found in the SDA church -- there is one ...
In Rev 18 God issues a message for Babylon saying "Come out of her MY people". At the very least - this is a call to Catholic saints to leave the errors of Catholicism. To the extent that they see the errors of that group - they are to follow the instruction given in Rev 18.

#4. If on the other hand you are asking about the more subtle question of what happens INSIDE Adventism when someone who DOES understand that Ellen White meets the test of a prophet -- then chooses to start ignoring any message God gave through her - well we have the example in Matt 16 when Christ gives "more light" than Peter is "inclinded to accept".

Receiving a "Love of the truth" (2Thess 2) means among other things that we adopt the attitude Paul defines in 1 Cor 14 towards the gift of prophecy -- in general.

#5. If you are asking if there are any of the 27 Fundamental Beliefs in Adventism which "require as proof" some statement from Ellen White - the answer is "no".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BTW I think it is great that this thread is title "Witnessing to Adventists" and -- here I am. Ready to be witnessed to.

What a great way to practice some ideas on an Adventist. Zero risk -- all the fun without the calories.

In Christ,

Bob