Ray, I agree all men are born with a sin nature, objects of God's wrath, and in need of a savior. I don't agree, as I know you don't that mankind is born unable to see, hear, understand and be converted but that is a result of hardening (Acts 28:24-28; John 2:37-41). There is a self-hardening in which one desides for himself to rebel and disobey becoming set in his ways and their was the unique Sovereign hardening of God in which he sealed those who were self-hardened in their hardening so that they would not be converted by the miracles and teachings of the Christ before it was the right time.
Scott,
Originally posted by Scott J:
Yes -- Yes, when a person is confronted with the calling of the HS through the gospel which informs them of the knowledge that God's requirements for righteousness are to believe upon Christ in faith this could lead them to believe that is true.
You are answering a question that wasn't asked.
Here is your question:
Is there anything within a person's natural will at birth that leads them to choose to meet God's requirements for righteousness?
My answer: Yes, if there is the outside influence of the call of the HS through the gospel a person's natural will is capable of responding in faith.
I don't know how that doesn't answer the question.
I know you don't want to consider the powerful impact that the gospel and the calling of the HS can have, but I don't believe that can be ignored in regard to this question, do you?
If man is capable of making one decision by his own sinful will that satisfies God's required righteousness then why not two or three or four... or how about all of them?
The capasity to believe is implied throughout all scripture that calls all men to believe the only possible way I would believe that anyone didn't have that capasity is if scripture specifically told me they don't have that capasity. Oh wait, it does tell me that certain people can't believe in John 12:37-41, but it doesn't have anything to do with being born under the imputed sin of the fall, it has to do with God's active and temporary hardening of the Israelites. If no one was able to believe why did John point out that these Israelites were unable to believe because of God's hardening? Why not just say, "No one in the world can believe ever." Or even, "Only my chosen elect can believe, the rest can't."
To further refute this answer, some people sit hear the gospel continuously during their lives and never, ever see their need for it. They believe they can come to God on their own terms. They have faith. They believe in God. They even believe the facts of the gospel- yet they are never born again.
So you admit someone can have faith without being born again? Surely you mean dead faith, as spoken of in James 2 right?
This doesn't refute anything. It only streghtens my claims. A person can see and understand the gospel but just decide I'm not willing to give up my life for that. They can "count the cost" of being a disciple and decide the costs are too high.
Besides my experience, numerous completely hardened people are changed in a moment even after hearing the gospel for years.
Thus the various soils of the heart. I know people all respond differently to the gospel which proves to me that God doesn't call everyone by the same effectual means. He uses outward motivators like tragedy, fear, envy, hardships and the like to provoke man's will to respond. He desires all men to be saved but he also desires all men to choose whom they will serve, He doesn't make that choice for them.
People are born sinful, not unwilling, they can't be unwilling until they have been confronted with the call to do something.
There is none that seeketh after God, there is none that doeth good. If your answer were true, there would be no reason for a spiritual rebirth- just spiritual reformation.
We are made alive through faith (Col. 2:12). Before that point, I agree we don't seek God, nor are we good. Which is why Christ is good in our stead and seeks us through the calling of the HS and the Gospel.
No your analogy doesn't fit. It is instead like asking your kid to take off and fly a couple of miles. He is lighter at 2 so you might try to argue that he is less incapable of making that choice. None the less, it will never be in accordance with his physical nature to choose to fly.Only if his nature is changed, like at the resurrection, will his nature allow the choice to fly.
Ok, we'll go with your analogy.
"Johnny and Jordan go fly a couple of miles."
"No daddy."
"You better fly or I'm going to throw you in the dark basement with snakes and scorpins for the rest of your lives."
"But daddy, we can't fly."
"I know that was apart of my plan."
"So, why are you telling us to fly if we can't do it?"
"To show my glory. Here Jordan I've got you an airplane so that you can fulfill my command and not be judged."
Jordan says, "What about Johnny Daddy."
"He can't son. So, he will be punished."
"But daddy he doesn't have an airplane like you gave me."
"Son, that his own fault, now isn't it."
"Daddy, thank you for the airplane but I want my brother to have a plane too, do you have one for him?"
"No, I only chose you"
"What's going to happen to Johnny?"
"He will be thrown in the basement for not obeying me."
"But, daddy, you never gave him an opportunity to obey you."
"Who are you son to question your daddy, get on the plane and you will find the Institutes of the Christian Religion to help you understand that bible."
Yeah, that belief makes God seem really glorified. NOT!
See verse 30. It is not man that justifies himself by choosing to have faith it is God that justifies man by means of faith. You still want to confuse the "why" with the "how". Faith is the "how"- the means provided by God to reconcile men to Himself through Christ. God's choosing is the "why".
You even said it yourself, "THE MEANS OF FAITH."
We are justified by the means of faith. Faith must come first it's the means by which something is accomplished. The why is also answered for us in this book, "Because of his great love for us, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Not only for us, but for the sins of the world.