history of the doctrine of the rapture

While I believe the church began in Acts 2, note that the Bible doesn't refer to a "church age," but instead says that the church will be "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21). Note again that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and every Christian must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

Note that apostasy is a departure, from one's faith, and that even Darby himself acknowledged that apostasia means apostasy: "Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Darby Translation).

 

This is a web page, not
a bulletin board. Need more specific instructions on how to get to where you will
be posting.

 

After reading the article this passage made more sense to me!... To each his own and since there is one in every crowd... I must be the one!... Then I am amil/partial preterist!

They continued to believe that the prohesies concerning apocalyptical events had all been fulfilled in the 1st Century, and that since then Christ began His "spiritual millennial reign" which, in their view, has been ongoing for 1900 years.

Studied them all brethren and just can't see it any other way!... In every generation they always thought theirs was the one!... IMHO... Brother Glen

 

Alright history buffs, line up

Recall that our history of the early church
came through the Roman Catholic Church (RCC).
The RCC seems to have abandoned
the pre-mill stance they held prior to
the time when then sold out to the Roman
Empire in 325AD.

What did the East Syrian (Nestorian) Church teach
about eschatology?

 

More for the historians among us
(Note each of these could be used
for a Dr. of Divinity (DD) thesis )


1. What did the East Syrian (Nestorian) church teach
about eschatology?

1a. What was the eschatological teaching
of the Nestorian mission to Yemen?

1b. What was the eschatological teaching
of the Nestorian mission to Ceylon?

1c. What was the eschatological teaching
of the Nestorians in China? Specifically
what was the teaching of the Nestorian
bishop Alopen who translated the New Testament
into Chineese in the 7th Century.

2. What was the eschatological leaning
of the 200,000 Japaneese marytrs of
the 14th century which were killed by
the "peace loving" Buddists?

3. What does the Eastern Orthodox
teach about eschatology?

4. What does the Coyptic Church of Ethopia
teach about eschatology?

 

Tyndale1946: "Thus I am
amil/partial preterist ... "

Tee hee Three strikes and you are out.
Oh, i forgot, amil/partial preterist
can't possibly be pretribulation rapurturist.
Three strikes -- you are out

IMHO amil teaches contray to
2 Thessalonians 2:2 because amil teaches
the DAY OF CHIRST is already come.
The DAY OF CHIRST is the proper time for
Jesus, the Christ, to interfeere in the
affairs of mainkind, bringing them judgement
and ruling them directly. Sorry, no
part of the Day of Christ will come
until after the falling away and the
revelation of AC=antichrist (2 Thess 2:3).

 

What is a-mill or preterists? I don't know a fig about these terms.

Thanks,
heidi

 

Like I heard a brother ask another brother... What millenium position do you hold to?... Then he gave him a rundown of all of them!... The brother listened to all of them then turned to the other brother and said... I'm a Panmillenialist... It will all pan out in the end!... Brother Glen

 

Ed, don't confuse premill with pretrib. The first deals with the timing of the *millennium* in relation to Christ's coming, the second deals with the *rapture* in relation to Christ's coming. The early church was indeed premill, but *posttrib*.

 

Hello Heidi.

There are only 4 possible views of Bible
Prophecy (especially Revelation):

preterism - past, the Tribualtion happened already
historicism - present, the Tribulation is now
futurism - future, the Tribulation is in the future
idealism - timeless, Revelationis timeless
spiritual truth about God & man.

There are three views of when the Second Advent
of Jesus will be in relation to the Millinnium
(Revelation 20)

a-millinnial - the MK=millinnial kingdom of God is a spiritual truth
pre-millinnial - Jesus will return before the MK
post-millinnial - Jesus will return after His MK

for fun there is a fourth x-mill view:
pan-millinnial: Jesus is in charge of MK/Second Advent
timing, so everything will pan out alright

There are several views of the relationship
of the rapture/resurrection and the Tribulation period:

pretrib - the rapture/resurrection is before the Tribulation period
midtrib - the rapture/resurrection is in the middle
of the Tribulation period
postrib - the rapture/resurrection is at the end
of the Tribulation period and one even with the
Second Coming of Jesus
partial rapture - multiple raptures take place
at two or more of: pretrib, midtrib, postrib
pre-wrath - the rapture takes place during the
Tribulation before the wrath of God is poured out

I consider myself to be pretrib, pre-millinnial, historist.

 

The early church was indeed premill, but *posttrib*.</font>[/QUOTE]Uptopic there is convincing evidence that the term "posttrib" could not have existed until Darby in 1830
invented "pretrib". So before 1830 there was
nobody could possibly use the label "pretrib or "postrib".

I agree, the church was premill until
after the wedding with the Roman Empire under
Constantine in 325ad. Then the a-mill
position was created.

 

The point is moot, because a label to distinguish it from other views is not needed when it is the only, universal view. A rose by any other name is still a rose - the lack of the label does not negate or even change the existence of what the label identifies.

 

A Preterist is a person that believes that what Jesus told the Jews about the destruction of Jerusalem came to pass in 70 AD!... I believe this because according to history that is just what happened!... I am a Partial Preterist because they also believe the body that is put in the ground is not raised but a spiritual body is raised. I believe that the same body that is put in the ground is the same body but changed that shall be raised.

I'm also amill when means there is no millenium because the 1,000 year reign is not literal but figuritive and since Jesus Christ set up the church and is the head of it... That is the church we are living in!... Why do we go to church if we are not worshipping in the kingdom Jesus Christ set up and not only that he gave us the Bible rules that govern his kingdom!... That is what I believe and where I stand!... I hope this clears up your question Heidi on what a Preterist and Amill believe?... Brother Glen

 

I am so busy. I will work tonight - 3rd shift job. Tomorrow night is my night off, I will post on www.lasthour.com and rapture issue also, millennium too.

I am still will post on this.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Posttrib/Amill

 

Thanks for defining some of the terms.
Nice picture Ed.

heidi

 

You are are welcome on
the definitions. Thank you for the compliment.

 

I'm back!!

First, I want to discuss on Daniel 9:24-27:

NOT all amillennialists believe Daniel 9:26-27 was fulfilled in the 2nd Century.

I never saying it was fulfilled in the 2nd century.

I always emphasis on Dan. 9:26-27 was fulfilled by the Calvary, and also, the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.

The context of Dan. 9:24-27 is focus on ONE person is Messiah. The context of verse 26-27 does not saying on two persons - Messiah and Antichrist.

The context of Dan. 9:24-27 is focus on Calvary.

Dan. 9:24 predicted about the Calvary. Christ who already reconciled us together through Calvary - Eph. 2:12-16.

"To make reconciliation for iniquity" - Dan. 9:24. Jesus already reconcile us both Jews and Gentiles together through Calvary.

Dan. 9:25 already fulfilled, in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah came to Jersualem to rebuilt the city, rebuilt the temple, and the walls around city. They were prepared for the Messiah.

Dan.9:26 tells us, AFTER 69th week, Messiah was cut off by Calvary. That means, he was cut off in the 70th week by Calvary.

Pretribbers saying, "the people of the prince", prince is the Antichrist. The reason they saying it, because it is small letters - 'prince'. I have A.V. 1611 with me. It says, "people of the P rince". Obivosuly, prince is Messiah.

Because, its context with verse 25 - "The Messiah the Prince". Jesus is Prince, and Messiah.

Jesus have many names.

Isaiah 9:6 - "The Prince of Peace". Jesus is the prince.

"Prince" appears in Ezekiel chapter 44 to 48 - 17 times! Obivously, these are speaking on Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:15 - "And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath rasied from the dead; whereof we are witnesses."

Jesus is the Prince. Jesus was killed by on the cross.

Acts 5:31 "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and to forgiveness of sins."

Jesus is the Prince and Savior.

Dan. 9:26 already fulfilled in 70 A.D. the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome. According to Matt. 42:2.

Dan. 9:27 already fulfilled that Jesus already make covenant with many through the Calvary at the 70th Week. He already covant with many, not just for Jews only, also whole world - John 3:16.

Dan. 9:27 already fulfilled in Mark 14:24 -"And he(Jesus) said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many."

Jesus already make a new covenant with many both Jews and Gentiles through the Calvary.

Christ does not break the covenant in the midst of the week. He was cut off by crucified in the midst of the week.

Does Jesus caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease? I mean, does Jesus caused the offerings and sacrifices to stop? Yes! He does! When Jesus was on the cross, he yelled, "It is finished." Means no more offerings, and sacrifices. Jesus is the Lamb. Also, Jesus IS the temple.

Does Jesus destroyed the temple in Jerusalem? Yes. In John 2:19 - "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Yes, Jesus destroyed the building of the temple of Jerusalem. Means the building of temple of Jerusalem was no longer need, Jesus IS the temple.

When we accepted Jesus Christ as our savior, the Holy Spirit come into our body, and Christ dwells in us, we are temple of God - 1 Cor. 13:16-17; and 6:19-20.

Again, does Jesus destroyed temple? Yes, while Jesus died on the cross, the veil of the temple was tear in twain from top to bottom - Mark 15:37-38.

Before the veil of the temple teared, Jesus yelled, "It is finished" - John 19:30, then suddenly the veil of the temple tear down from the top to bottom, shows, that the offerings, sacrifices are no more again, Christ fulfilled the prophecies of the Old testament include Dan. 9:24-27 also.

Yes, Jesus is the responsible for destroyed the building of the temple in Jerusalem - Dan. 9:27. Jesus predicts the building of the temple will be destroyed completed in Matt 24:2. It already fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Why the building of the temple was destroyed? Because the unbelieving Jews were stubborn and blind, not accept Jesus is the Messiah, they keep on continuing doing offerings and sacrifices. So, Christ allowed Rome to invaded Jerusalem, and destroyed the temple.

Because NOW, Jesus IS the temple. We are now priests, we have rights to ask Jesus to forgive our sins daily 24 hours. Because Jesus is our Lamb.

Many Christians believe Jesus was doing ministry for 3 1/2 years. I agree with them.

Jesus' ministry through Passover day three times in John 2:13(first passover; 6:4(second passover); and 13:1(third passover). Clearly, Jesus doing ministry for over 3 years.

So, therefore Christ was cut off during 70th week in the midst of the week.

Pretribbers believe there is a gap time between Dan. 9:26 and 27. They believe the clock or countdown stopped on verse 26 that Christ was cut off at 69th week. So, the 70th week is delay till future 7 year of Tribulaiton, when the Antichrist sign peace treaty with Israel then Dan. 9:27 begins again.

Not what Dan. 9:26-27 was talking about.

Notice it saying, AFTER the 69th week. Means, he was cut off during 70th week.

There is no gap time between verse 26 and 27.

I used to believe there is gap time of Dan. 9:26-27, when I was a pretribber before.

Many believe Tribulation period is 7 years. Does the scripture saying it? None.

They believed it, because the book of Revelation is chronological. I used to believe Tribulation period is 7 years while I was a pretribber. Now, I realized, the book of Revelation is not chronological. It have retelling the events, and there are 7 parallels in Revelation.

If suppose, they saying it is chronological, then that means, it is total 19 years. Huh???

The Bible teaches us, Antichrist shall reign for only 42 months, not 84 months! - Rev. 13:5.

Dan. 7:25; Rev. 11:2-3; 12:6, 14; and Rev. 13:5 tells us, Great Tribulation will last for only 3 1/2 years, NOT 7 years.

There is NONE scripture anywhere in the Bible saying Great Tribulation is 7 years!

Now, let's discuss on Rapture:

Rapture and Second Coming are not separated. Both Matt 24:27 & 1 Thess 4:15 - "parosia" in Greek word of coming are same definition. Rapture does not separated from the coming.

Matt 24:29-31 telling us, that our gathering together will follow the coming of the Lord after the tribulaiton. Same with 1 Thess. 4:15-17 telling us, that our gathering together will follow the coming. Also, in 2 Thess 2:1 tells us, our gathering together will follow the coming.

Rapture does not separate from the second advent.

The early church, they argue, held this posttribulation view

That's what www.lasthour.com saying. That's true. Early Church is very clearly posttribulation. Early Church does not teach pretribulation for the first of 18 centuries. Pretribulaiton was not exist till 19th Century.

Tribulation is not wrath.

We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4. Jesus tells us, that we should face tribulations - John 16:33. Paul tells us, that we must through much tribulation - Acts 14:22.

But, we are not appointed for the wrath - 1 Thess 5:9. Why? Because we received salvation through Jesus Christ.

Wrath is for send unbelievers to hell, who do not believe in Christ - John 3:36.

You will notice anywhere in the book of revelation never saying the wrath will pour upon the saints(Christians. Revelation tells us, the wrath pour upon the unbelievers who will receive the mark of the beast only.

Revelation 3:10 is not rapture. It is talking about the temptations. Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep the commandments of God, God will take care or protect us while we are facing the times of temptations.

Pretribbers interpreting "Hour of tempation" is 7 year of Tribulation period. John does not saying it.

Commentary of Matthew Henry is right. He said on Rev. 3:10: "By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in times of peace will make them faithful in TIMES of persecution."

Hour is not literal 60 minutes. It means, period, era, and time.

Good example - Mark 14:41 - Jesus said, "Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners."

It is not literally 60 minutes. If suppose, it is literally 60 minutes, then that means Christ died during night time at around 4 am?

Hour means the time has arrived for Jesus to face Calvary, withtin 12 hours later, he died.

Rev. 3:10 is same with 1 Cor. 10:13. 1 Cor. 10:13 tells us, that we are bear temptations, but God do not allow us to face great temptations, because He knows our weakeness. But, we should be able to escape from the sins.

Joseph was a good example. He face tempted by master's wife tempted him, asked him to sex. He refused. She kept on tempted him several times. When she grabbed his garment, he fled from her. That is a perfect example of Joseph accord to 1 Cor. 10:13. The true story of Joseph in Genesis 39:7-12.

We do not wait for "hour of temptation" to come. Many Christians already facing tempations in their lifetime. Early Church include Church of Philadelphia already face tempations.

Also, Rev. 3:10-11 promise us, if we endure with the temptations, we will received the reward.

It is same with James 1:12 - "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life' which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

It promises us, if we endureth temptations till we die, then we shall receive the crown of life.

Also, in Rev. 2:10 tells us, Satan persecutes Christian for ten days(short period), a saint who endureth with the persecution suffering dying to death then shall receive the crown of life.

Rev. 2:10 is same with Rev. 3:10.

Rev. 3:10 is not talking about rapture. It is talking about temptations.

Also, Rev. 3:10 is same with John 17:15. Jesus asked his Father NOT to take Christians out of the world(sound like as rapture), but to guard or protect them from the evil(temptations).

Clearly, many saints during this time(Great Tribulation) will die for their faith before the Second Coming

That what at www.lasthour.com saying. That is correct.

You know that Early Church suffered so greatly worser than us of today in America. Millions of Christians were suffering killed eatne by wild beasts at Colossuem in Rome. Also, during Reformation Age, millions of Christians were killed by Roman Catholics.

Today, many Christians in other countries across the world are suffering persecutions, they died for their faith today.

During Great Tribulation, many Christians will suffering to die for their faith.

Pretribbers interpreting "he" of 2 Thess 2:7 is the Holy Spirit as restrainer. Apostle Paul does not saying it.

The context of "he" - 2 Thess 2:7 starts with verse 3 - "man of sin" is Antichrist.

Paul does not saying Holy Spirit will leave earth as rapture. Paul tells us, Antichrist is now being holding back from being to be revealed - 2 Thess 2:6 & 7. Who caused Antichrist being to be holding back? God does. God have power to hinder Antichrist from being to be revealed.

Paul tells us, the mystery of evil is already working in the world - 1 Thess 2:7a. It refers with 1 John 2:18; and 4:3.Satan is now working with the evil system since Early Church to today.

Antichrist is now holding back from being to be revealed. God knows the right time.

When the falling away(apostasy) is increasing worser. Then, God will allow Antichrist to be revealed.

"Out of the way" is not the removal of the Holy Spirit or rapture. It means, Antichrist shall be removed from the mystery, and then, he shall be revealed - 2 Thess 2:8.

1 Thess 5:1-9 is talking about day of the Lord shall come like as thief in the night. Paul tells us, that we must be in the day, because we are commanded to be watch- means we walking live right and spiritual life. It warns, if any person who are not watch, and staying in the dark - sin life, Christ shall come to grab them by unexpect or shocked.

Day of the Lord is not tribulation. It is the second coming with the wrath of God to judge the world.

Day of the Lord shall not come till AFTER the sun, moon, and stars become darkened - Joel 2:31, and Matt 24:29.

Day of the Lord will not come till AFTER Great Tribulation.

Day of the Lord is same as day of Christ. Both are second coming to judge the world.

Pretribbers interpreting, "Church" is not appear from Revelation 4 to 19, prove it is gone before Tribulation comes, is the evidenc eof pretribulation doctrine.

I let you know there is no word, "church' in Revelation chapter 19 about the second advent. Yet all pretribbers saying church is there in Revelation 19. I agree with them.

Also, there is no word - "Church" in Revelation chapter 20 about the reigning with Christ. Pretribbers saying church is there in Revelation chapter 20. I agree with them. Didn't you know that we are reign with Christ? Church reigns with Christ!

There is no word - "Church" in Revelation chapter 21. Yet, all pretrbbers saying church is there. I agree with them. Didn't you know that we will dwell with Christ in New Jerusalem? Church will dwell in New Jerusalem for eternal life.

The Book of Revelation is apply to the Church whole. Rev. 22:16 tells us, Christ told to John to testify the book to MANY Churches, not just for the seven churches only. Also, it apply to us as the church well.

Whole book of Revelation is apply to the Church.

NONE in the New Testament scriptures saying, Israel shall rebuilt the physical building of the Temple during Great Tribulation period.

Jesus IS the temple.

Also, there is none scripture anywhere in the Bible saying the building of the temple will be rebuilt AFTER the second coming of Christ.

Rev. 21:22 tells us, there will be no need of temple, because Jesus IS the temple.

Ezekiel chapter 40-48 is heavily symbolics and figuratives. that Christ fulfilled them, He is the temple.

I read another article at www.lasthour.com - "Has the Church Replaced Israel?

I am not Replacement Theology.

Didn't you know that we are part of Abraham's seed? In Galatians 2:26-29 telling us, that we are all children of God through Abraham's seed. Both Jews and Gentiles are ONE in Christ. That we are part of Christ's seed.

Romans chapter 11 tells us, that God does not cast his people(Jews), but, unbelieving Jews were removed from the tree, yet the remain of believing Jews are stay in the tree. Gentiles are NOW added to the tree to join with Jews. We are Israel.

I will post on Dispensationalism on another topic this week more deeper.

Conclusion: Early Church does not teach on pretribulation. None of them teach on split comings or two phases of the second advent for the first of 18 centuries. Early Church was clearly posttribulation.

All apostles include Paul in the Bible taught posttrib coming. Even, Jesus taught posttrib coming in Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 17, & 21.

None of the apostles include Jesus teach on pretribulation.

I reject pretribulationism, because, it is man-making doctrine. I rather follow the Bible than men's teaching of their philosophy - Col. 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Posttrib/Amill

 

Brother DeafPosttrib: Go to your second post,
select the option EDIT. Select all the text,
type in "Oops, second post". select EDIT POST.
The second post is now changed. We understand
posting twice, we have done it ourself.

In light of your expressed understanding of
Daniel 5, what does this passage mean?

Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV1873):

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice
shall be taken away, and the abomination
that maketh desolate set up, there shall
be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth,
and cometh to the thousand three hundred
and five and thirty days.

Specifically, who was blessed for waiting
1,335 days and when did they wait
the 1,335 days? Historically in 70AD +
1,335 years = 1405AD many though the Lord
Jesus would appear before men. History
does not record such an appearance.

 

DeafPosttrib: Conclusion: Early Church does
not teach on pretribulation. None of them
teach on split comings or two phases
of the second advent for the first
of 18 centuries. Early Church was clearly
posttribulation.
All apostles include Paul in the Bible taught
posttrib coming. Even, Jesus taught
posttrib coming in Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 17, & 21.
None of the apostles include Jesus
teach on pretribulation."

This is man-made doctrine.
By DeafPosttrib's own testimony it originated
in the early 1950s:
"Late George Ladd wrote posttrib book in 1950's
that was 50 years ago."
I reject this man-made doctrine on the basis
of Colossians 2:8. BTW, which of the several
posttribulationism philosophies did George Ladd
write about? Peteristic postrib? Historic postrib?
And before you smash Dispensationalism remember
that most of your Christian brothers and sisters
who are posttrib are also dispensationalists.