Ah yes Darby and Schofield... A volatile mix!... Brother Glen 
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history of the doctrine of the rapture
- Thread starter Ps104_33
- Start date
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Ah, we are going to discuss BrianT.
I met BrianT online what seems
like 8-years ago. It was the
first time i'd run across an EZBoard
(they host thier BBs). I put in
a local sign-in, third EZBoard and i
got a global account
Checking with the Holy Spirit, I found
BrianT a born-again, saved, Christian
saint whom I must call "Brother". Likewise,
Brother BrianT was placed on my
"pray for daily" prayer list. So i've been
praying daily for BrianT for eight years.
Something like this:
Father God, please lend your best blessings
for Brother BrianT, his family, and his ministry.
May this be done that we might give all the
more honor and glory unto our Blessed Lord
and Savior: Messiah Jesus. Amen.
BrianT is competent to read his
own Bible translation and dtermine
his own doctrines: "work out his own salvation"
as it were. To bad his escatology is
not in order , but let the Lord deal with that.
[ January 13, 2003, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]
I met BrianT online what seems
like 8-years ago. It was the
first time i'd run across an EZBoard
(they host thier BBs). I put in
a local sign-in, third EZBoard and i
got a global account
Checking with the Holy Spirit, I found
BrianT a born-again, saved, Christian
saint whom I must call "Brother". Likewise,
Brother BrianT was placed on my
"pray for daily" prayer list. So i've been
praying daily for BrianT for eight years.
Something like this:
Father God, please lend your best blessings
for Brother BrianT, his family, and his ministry.
May this be done that we might give all the
more honor and glory unto our Blessed Lord
and Savior: Messiah Jesus. Amen.
BrianT is competent to read his
own Bible translation and dtermine
his own doctrines: "work out his own salvation"
as it were. To bad his escatology is
not in order
, but let the Lord deal with that.[ January 13, 2003, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
BryanT, 12 Jan 09:14AM:
// ... exactly one of the failed
interpertations of "88 reasons for 1988"//
BryanT, 13 Jan 12:23AM:
// ... I've never heard of anyone
holding a tri-rapture view.
Edgar C. Wisenant specifies a
tri-rapture in "88 reasons for 1988://
1. a pretrib rapture/resurrection
of the Church age saints (just before
Russian nukes the USA)
2. a mid-trib rapture/resurrection
of the Jewish saints (along with
a resurrection of the two witnesses)
3. a post-trib rapture of the Trib saints
// ... exactly one of the failed
interpertations of "88 reasons for 1988"//
BryanT, 13 Jan 12:23AM:
// ... I've never heard of anyone
holding a tri-rapture view.
Edgar C. Wisenant specifies a
tri-rapture in "88 reasons for 1988://
1. a pretrib rapture/resurrection
of the Church age saints (just before
Russian nukes the USA)
2. a mid-trib rapture/resurrection
of the Jewish saints (along with
a resurrection of the two witnesses)
3. a post-trib rapture of the Trib saints
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
DeafPosttrib: "Pretribulation is full of theory,
and is only 170 years old."
My study of x-trib history shows:
posttrib is empty and only
40 years old.
BTW, my first posttrib book was "Christians Will
Go Through tahe Tribulation". The last
third of the book contained 1970s styule
survivalist stuff.
and is only 170 years old."
My study of x-trib history shows:
posttrib is empty and only
40 years old.
BTW, my first posttrib book was "Christians Will
Go Through tahe Tribulation". The last
third of the book contained 1970s styule
survivalist stuff.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Darby and his amazing time machine.
After developing the pretrib rapture doctrine
in 1830 and prior to visiting the USofA
in the 1840s to sell American his new revelation:
Darby got in a Time Machine
He visited Wycliffe in 1384 and got
Wycliffe to put "Departynge first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited Tyndale in 1526 and talked
Tyndale into putting "Departynge first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited Coverdale in 1535 and talked
him into putting "Departynge first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited Cranner in 1539 and talked
him into putting "Departynge first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited the Breeches translators in 1576 and talked
them into putting "Departing first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited the Beza translators in 1583 and talked
them folk into putting "Departing first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited Geneva in 1526 and talked
those translators into putting "Departing first"
into 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
Finally Darby visted the King James Version
translators and got all 50 of them into
putting "falling away first".
Pretty good trip, eh?
Talking all those folks who knew the
perfectly good English word "apostasy"
and the Greek word "apostica".
After developing the pretrib rapture doctrine
in 1830 and prior to visiting the USofA
in the 1840s to sell American his new revelation:
Darby got in a Time Machine
He visited Wycliffe in 1384 and got
Wycliffe to put "Departynge first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited Tyndale in 1526 and talked
Tyndale into putting "Departynge first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited Coverdale in 1535 and talked
him into putting "Departynge first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited Cranner in 1539 and talked
him into putting "Departynge first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited the Breeches translators in 1576 and talked
them into putting "Departing first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited the Beza translators in 1583 and talked
them folk into putting "Departing first"
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
He visited Geneva in 1526 and talked
those translators into putting "Departing first"
into 2 Thessalonians 2:3.
Finally Darby visted the King James Version
translators and got all 50 of them into
putting "falling away first".
Pretty good trip, eh?
Talking all those folks who knew the
perfectly good English word "apostasy"
and the Greek word "apostica".
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Here is some things i wrote for another BB
addressing the same issue:
If you are having difficulty understanding
a scripture, then keep living by the scripture
you do understand.
Here is an easy scripture:
1 Thessalonians 5:17 (KJV1873):
Pray without ceasing.
Father God, Creator of the Universe, please
bless Sister Heidi, her family, and her
ministry. May this be done so that we might
bring all the more honor and glory for our
blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus. Amen.
TheCopyGuy: //I, too, would like to know how
"falling away"="rapture", Ed. I truly hope
this notion is not what you base your
pre-trib belief on.//
Whilst the normal view of the rapture/resurrecion
is a lifting of the bodies of the born-again, saved
Christian saints; the world is round.
On a world-wide view, some of the saints are lifted
into the sky, others fall away from the world
into the sky to meet Jesus.
The following early English translations translated
"falling away" with "departynge" or "Departing":
1384, Wycliffe Bible
1526, Tyndale Bible
1535, Coverdale Bible
1539, Cranmer Bible
1576, Breeches Bible
1583, Beza Bible
1608, Geneva Bible
BTW, the Greek "apostesia" here
could have been translated by the English
"apostasy" which was available to these
translators.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
by our gathering together unto him,
Is this one event or two?
I say two. Paul says he will speak of these
two events. Later Paul speaks again
of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
calling it "the day of Christ" in verse 2
and how Jesus, the Christ, will destroy
the man of sin at his coming in verse 8.
Where does Paul speak again of "our gathering
together unto him? I find it one more place
and one more place only: the falling away
in verse 3.
BTW, this is the verse upon which the timing
of the rapture BEFORE anything else (like the
Tribualation period).
TheCopyGuy: //And a question: IF the pre-trib
doctrine is true and IF it was taught
in the early church, why doesn't
Paul tell the Thessalonians (in so many words):
"For that day shall not come until
there come snatching up first,
then the church shall fall away
and the man of sin be revealed"?//
That is exactly what happens here in 2 Thessalonians 2.
And i believe the rapture/resurrection will
be before the revelation of the AC=antichrist.
I beleive this is the order of events
to transpire, as shown in 2 Thessalonians 2:
0) the present age continues
1) the rapture/resurrection (falling away,
gathering of ourselves to Christ)
2) the Tribualtion period (reign of the man of sin)
3) the Second Advent of Jesus to destroy
the AC=antichrist and set up the MK=millinnial kingdon
(the Day of Christ)
addressing the same issue:
If you are having difficulty understanding
a scripture, then keep living by the scripture
you do understand.
Here is an easy scripture:
1 Thessalonians 5:17 (KJV1873):
Pray without ceasing.
Father God, Creator of the Universe, please
bless Sister Heidi, her family, and her
ministry. May this be done so that we might
bring all the more honor and glory for our
blessed Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus. Amen.
TheCopyGuy: //I, too, would like to know how
"falling away"="rapture", Ed. I truly hope
this notion is not what you base your
pre-trib belief on.//
Whilst the normal view of the rapture/resurrecion
is a lifting of the bodies of the born-again, saved
Christian saints; the world is round.
On a world-wide view, some of the saints are lifted
into the sky, others fall away from the world
into the sky to meet Jesus.
The following early English translations translated
"falling away" with "departynge" or "Departing":
1384, Wycliffe Bible
1526, Tyndale Bible
1535, Coverdale Bible
1539, Cranmer Bible
1576, Breeches Bible
1583, Beza Bible
1608, Geneva Bible
BTW, the Greek "apostesia" here
could have been translated by the English
"apostasy" which was available to these
translators.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the
coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
by our gathering together unto him,
Is this one event or two?
I say two. Paul says he will speak of these
two events. Later Paul speaks again
of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
calling it "the day of Christ" in verse 2
and how Jesus, the Christ, will destroy
the man of sin at his coming in verse 8.
Where does Paul speak again of "our gathering
together unto him? I find it one more place
and one more place only: the falling away
in verse 3.
BTW, this is the verse upon which the timing
of the rapture BEFORE anything else (like the
Tribualation period).
TheCopyGuy: //And a question: IF the pre-trib
doctrine is true and IF it was taught
in the early church, why doesn't
Paul tell the Thessalonians (in so many words):
"For that day shall not come until
there come snatching up first,
then the church shall fall away
and the man of sin be revealed"?//
That is exactly what happens here in 2 Thessalonians 2.
And i believe the rapture/resurrection will
be before the revelation of the AC=antichrist.
I beleive this is the order of events
to transpire, as shown in 2 Thessalonians 2:
0) the present age continues
1) the rapture/resurrection (falling away,
gathering of ourselves to Christ)
2) the Tribualtion period (reign of the man of sin)
3) the Second Advent of Jesus to destroy
the AC=antichrist and set up the MK=millinnial kingdon
(the Day of Christ)
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Common viewpoints of the Biblical prophecies:
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:
0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
Postrib pre-mill outline:
0. church age continues
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
Postrib a-mill outline:
0.4. church age continues
(this is the same as a spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom)
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:
0. church age continues
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
Postrib pre-mill outline:
0. church age continues
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
Postrib a-mill outline:
0.4. church age continues
(this is the same as a spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom)
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Postrib: "Note that no scripture promises
us a rapture before the tribulation."
And in this context "tribulation" means what?
------------------------------
"Ed's outline of the future:
(Compared to 2 Thessalonians 2)
0. church age continues
(v.2 discussion)
1. rapture/resurrection
(v1: our gathering together unto him)
(v3: falling away)
2. Tribulation time
(start, v.3: revelation of man of perdition)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(v.1: The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
(v.2 Day of Christ)
5. new heaven & new earth
-------------------------------
Ed's outline of the future:
(Compared to Mount Olivet Discourse
in Matthew 24)
0. church age continues
(Matthew 24:4-20
1. rapture/resurrection
(Matthew 24:31-44)
2. Tribulation time
(mentioned in v.29)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(Matthew 24:21-30)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
-------------------------------
Ed's outline of the future:
(Compared to Revelation)
0. church age continues
(Revelation 2 & 3)
1. rapture/resurrection
(by metaphor: Revelation 4:1)
2. Tribulation time
(Revelation 4:2 - 19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(Revelation 19:11 - 19:21)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
(Revelation 20)
5. new heaven & new earth
(Revelation 21)
--------------------
us a rapture before the tribulation."
And in this context "tribulation" means what?
------------------------------
"Ed's outline of the future:
(Compared to 2 Thessalonians 2)
0. church age continues
(v.2 discussion)
1. rapture/resurrection
(v1: our gathering together unto him)
(v3: falling away)
2. Tribulation time
(start, v.3: revelation of man of perdition)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(v.1: The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
(v.2 Day of Christ)
5. new heaven & new earth
-------------------------------
Ed's outline of the future:
(Compared to Mount Olivet Discourse
in Matthew 24)
0. church age continues
(Matthew 24:4-20
1. rapture/resurrection
(Matthew 24:31-44)
2. Tribulation time
(mentioned in v.29)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(Matthew 24:21-30)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
-------------------------------
Ed's outline of the future:
(Compared to Revelation)
0. church age continues
(Revelation 2 & 3)
1. rapture/resurrection
(by metaphor: Revelation 4:1)
2. Tribulation time
(Revelation 4:2 - 19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(Revelation 19:11 - 19:21)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
(Revelation 20)
5. new heaven & new earth
(Revelation 21)
--------------------
DeafPosttrib
New Member
My study of x-trib history shows: posttrib is empty and only 40 years old
The Bible does teaching posttrib lot!! And posttrib doctrine is not new, it is very old since Old Testament time. Also, Jesus taught posttrib at the Mount Olivet - Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 17 & 21.
Early Church taught posttrib coming and one future coming for many centuries. No one teach split or phases of the second advent till 19th Century.
You says, posttrib is 40 years, how do you know posttrib was started in 1963?
Late George Ladd wrote posttrib book in 1950's that was 50 years ago.
Actually, there were lot of posttribbers through the Church history. There was no pretribber for the first of 19 centuries.
Because, no one teach that second advent is splitted into two phases for the first of 19 centuries. Till John Darby developed it. Many churches accepted Darby's new teaching.
"Falling away" of 2 Thess 2:3 is not rapture.
Of course, I agree with many other translations and verions saying departure. Departure does not support the idea meaning of rapture.
Departure means leave from that place or conditional. In fact, departure is depart from the faith, depart from the truth. Read in 1 Tim. 4:1; and 2 Tim. 4:3-4 did mentioned on apostasy.
Rapture is caught UP, not down.
Good example - autumn time, duyring the day, it is windy, the leaves are falling away from the trees, descend down to the ground. That wwhat 2 Thess 2:3 - 'apostasia' of Greek translation said.
Also, another way, the leaves departing from the trees during windy.
2 Thess 2:3 does not support the idea meaning of rapture. For many centuries, no one saying 2 Thess 2:3 - 'departure' and apostasy is rapture.
Till in 1950's, Dr. English Schuyler interpreting 2 Thess 2:3 - departure means departure of the saints is rapture. Many pastors accepted Dr. Schuyler's interpreting.
I disagree with him.
Not what 2 Thess 2:3 is talking about. It telling us, the gathering together/day of Christ shall NOT come till we will see apostasy first and the revealed of Antichrist. 2 Thess 2:3 is very clearly posttrib doctrine.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttribber/Amiller
The Bible does teaching posttrib lot!! And posttrib doctrine is not new, it is very old since Old Testament time. Also, Jesus taught posttrib at the Mount Olivet - Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 17 & 21.
Early Church taught posttrib coming and one future coming for many centuries. No one teach split or phases of the second advent till 19th Century.
You says, posttrib is 40 years, how do you know posttrib was started in 1963?
Late George Ladd wrote posttrib book in 1950's that was 50 years ago.
Actually, there were lot of posttribbers through the Church history. There was no pretribber for the first of 19 centuries.
Because, no one teach that second advent is splitted into two phases for the first of 19 centuries. Till John Darby developed it. Many churches accepted Darby's new teaching.
"Falling away" of 2 Thess 2:3 is not rapture.
Of course, I agree with many other translations and verions saying departure. Departure does not support the idea meaning of rapture.
Departure means leave from that place or conditional. In fact, departure is depart from the faith, depart from the truth. Read in 1 Tim. 4:1; and 2 Tim. 4:3-4 did mentioned on apostasy.
Rapture is caught UP, not down.
Good example - autumn time, duyring the day, it is windy, the leaves are falling away from the trees, descend down to the ground. That wwhat 2 Thess 2:3 - 'apostasia' of Greek translation said.
Also, another way, the leaves departing from the trees during windy.
2 Thess 2:3 does not support the idea meaning of rapture. For many centuries, no one saying 2 Thess 2:3 - 'departure' and apostasy is rapture.
Till in 1950's, Dr. English Schuyler interpreting 2 Thess 2:3 - departure means departure of the saints is rapture. Many pastors accepted Dr. Schuyler's interpreting.
I disagree with him.
Not what 2 Thess 2:3 is talking about. It telling us, the gathering together/day of Christ shall NOT come till we will see apostasy first and the revealed of Antichrist. 2 Thess 2:3 is very clearly posttrib doctrine.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
Posttribber/Amiller
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
My study of x-trib history shows: posttrib is empty and only 40 years old.
In light of DeafPosttrib's notes i ammend that
to say:
My study of x-trib history shows: posttrib is empty and only 50 years old.
And i'm at an advantage here,
nobody could say "no pretrib" until after
the term "pretrib" was invented
In light of DeafPosttrib's notes i ammend that
to say:
My study of x-trib history shows: posttrib is empty and only 50 years old.
And i'm at an advantage here,
nobody could say "no pretrib" until after
the term "pretrib" was invented
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Ed,
First, you said, 40 years, now you saying 50 years.
You do not have enough evidence. You need more study on them.
First, you said, 40 years, now you saying 50 years.
You do not have enough evidence. You need more study on them.
David A Bayliss
New Member
Check out
http://www.lasthour.com/Millenarian.htm
he lists some early references for Chiliasm and also pre-trib.
Personally though I think this is a red herring. The reformers had much bigger battles to fight than the eschatological ones!
Sure the question is : "What does the bible say" rather than "What does everyone else think the bible says?"
If we had stuck with the latter question we would never have had a reformation!
http://www.lasthour.com/Millenarian.htm
he lists some early references for Chiliasm and also pre-trib.
Personally though I think this is a red herring. The reformers had much bigger battles to fight than the eschatological ones!
Sure the question is : "What does the bible say" rather than "What does everyone else think the bible says?"
If we had stuck with the latter question we would never have had a reformation!
Right on the mark, David. Each generation seems to focus its debate and study on a different aspect of doctrine.
What years would THESE battles have been at the forefront of attack?
Inspiration?
Creation v Evolution?
Prophecy?
Eccumenicism?
Education?
Missions?
KJVonly?
Alcohol?
All of these have been at the "front" of the battle and publications in just the past 125 years. The Reformers had battles with catholicism, pelagianism and a pagan culture. Think the "rapture" issue would be far down the list.
[ January 15, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]
David A Bayliss
New Member
Thank you kindly. Actually I kinda cheated . I have just completed masters courses in Daniel and Systematic theology and a term paper on the tribulation. I have extensive notes.
DAB
. I have just completed masters courses in Daniel and Systematic theology and a term paper on the tribulation. I have extensive notes.DAB
Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
[QB]Wow, David, for a new member you've sure come in with a bang! Great link!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Tonight or tomorrow I will reply on www.lasthour.com
I am not reformer.
Many Calvinists and Preterists are Reformers. I am not Calvinist or Preterist either.
But I respect reformers very well.
Reformers do believe Jesus is the Lord. They believed Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Also, they DO believe Jesus is coming again.
Not all reformers are preterists. Nearly all reformers were more likely posttrib in their time during Reformation Age.
Eschatology is the most difficult area to debate than any other doctrines.
All reformers do hold the Bible with the truth. They believe all doctrines are very important.
The problem is, all of us as Christians have different view, and beliefs, we cannot expect that we all have the same view as we intepreting the Bible.
Church are division each other on earth today. But, when we get in heaven, there is no division. We all will have one same mind and same belief in heaven.
Later tonight or tomorrow, I will discuss lot of things on millennium, Daniel 70th Week, Israel, Church and many things and also, www.lasthour.com too.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
I am not reformer.
Many Calvinists and Preterists are Reformers. I am not Calvinist or Preterist either.
But I respect reformers very well.
Reformers do believe Jesus is the Lord. They believed Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Also, they DO believe Jesus is coming again.
Not all reformers are preterists. Nearly all reformers were more likely posttrib in their time during Reformation Age.
Eschatology is the most difficult area to debate than any other doctrines.
All reformers do hold the Bible with the truth. They believe all doctrines are very important.
The problem is, all of us as Christians have different view, and beliefs, we cannot expect that we all have the same view as we intepreting the Bible.
Church are division each other on earth today. But, when we get in heaven, there is no division. We all will have one same mind and same belief in heaven.
Later tonight or tomorrow, I will discuss lot of things on millennium, Daniel 70th Week, Israel, Church and many things and also, www.lasthour.com too.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!