Apparantly there are Christians who are not convicted that homosexuality is a sin.
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9
I'm sorry Theresa, but that isn't a very convincing argument.
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RE: Contemporary Christian Music....
- Thread starter ATeenageChristian
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"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9
I'm sorry Theresa, but that isn't a very convincing argument.
RaptureReady
New Member
I agree 100% with DocCas. If you think the old hymns are boring, I would hate to hear what you think about the old King James Bible. Music was made to praise, honor, and glorify God, not the artist. I myself have watched clips from the CCM artists like Carman and watched how the people in the crowds go crazy when he comes on stage and when he is singing and jumping around. I don't believe that this is spiritual at all. What I do believe is that the spirit of the antichrist is moving more and more each and every day to confuse Christians on what is right and wrong. Someone told me that if you took the words away from the music, would it sound pleasing to the Holy Spirit. I think not since over half of CCM would sound like the world. Here is a good site for further information: http://www.av1611.org/othpubl.html#Crock
God Bless!
God Bless!
Honestly?
Beautiful at times and sometimes the most appropriate version for certain occasions but there are times when the archaic language is so boring it's like watching paint dry (You may fire when ready - Mike dives behind the couch)
Yes, but I don't think precludes music as an artform.
Carman's kind of a special case. You have to consider who his audience is. It's mostly made up of people from the Word of Faith cult, who are especially given to hero worship.
If you consider CCM "ministry", then I would say that you have a good point, but it's not ministry. It's entertainment.
That's an interesting idea. Could you elaborate on how the antichrist's actions realte to CCM?
Does this mean that God is not honored by instrumental music?
There is a song we used to sing in my old church called (I think) "I Should Have Been Crucified" which is done to the tune of the old country standard, "There Goes My Everything". When I hear "Jesus Loves the Little Children" I immediately think of "God Save Ireland", the song from which the tune of "Jesus Loves the Little Children" is taken.
There are dozens of songs we sing in Baptist churches that remind me of "worldly" songs. Does this mean we shouldn't sing them anymore?
{qb]
That's not a good site at all, Homebound. We've demonstrated many, many times before here that they engage in promoting urban legends as fact, shoddy journalism and outright lies to make their points.Here is a good site for further information: ...
God Bless![/QB]
Among other things:
1) They claim that the Eagles are Satanists and that their name comes from their devotion to native American religions. They also claim that the building on the cover of "Hotel California" is really Anton Levay's Church of Satan.
The truth: They're not Satanists. They have denied this over and over and have admitted that they did nothing to discourage the rumors that they were Satanists because their manager thought it was good publicity.
Their name comes from an incident on a tour as Linda Ronstadt's backing band in which they ended up in the same hotel as the Philadelphia Eagles football club, who were in town for a game. The Eagles had taken over the hotel and the only way for Glen Frey to get room service was to call the desk and claim to be one of the Eagles. He and the other members of the band thought this was funny and the name stuck.
The building on the covers of Hotel California was the old Bevrly Hills Hilton, which had fallen into disrepair and that the band used as a metaphor for the disrepair California had fallen into as a result of the "sex, drugs and rock and roll" lifestyle. The song "Hotel California" is not about a drug trip or a Satamic occurance, as the folks on your website would have us believe. The song is a strong statement against materialism, casual sex and the rampant drug use that the band and many of their friends found themselves caught up in.
2) Alice Cooper is a Satanist and got his name from the disembodied spirit of a 17th century witch through a Ouija board.
The truth: Just as Ronnie Van Zandt is not "Lynyrd Skynrd" and Ian Anderson is not "Jethro Tull", Vince Furnier is not (orm at least, was not) Alice Cooper.
Vince Furnier was the leader of a band who took their name from a character in an old, 50's B horror movie and made up the story about the witch and the Ouija board, again, for publicity.
When the band broke up, the rights to the name "Alice Cooper" were awarded to Furnier who kept the name. Over time, people gradually associated him with the name "Alice" and he ran with it.
Today, as folks on Baptist Board have heard me repeat 300 times, Alice is a born again Christian who is performing music with overtly Christian themes and has become an outspoken voice for Christ, as well as the unborn.
3) Brian Wilson hears voices. Therefore, he is evil.
The truth: There is, perhaps, no other fact in rock and roll so well known as that Brian Wilson suffers from schizophrenia and a host of disassociative disorders.
To label him "evil" or "Satanic" because of his illness is not only untrue, but cruel.
4) John "Ozzy" Osbourne and Jimmy Page are satanists.
The truth: According to Ozzy's wife/manager, Sharon, "Ozzy and I have no religious affiliation, Sataic or otherwise."
Jimmy Page has admitted that the rumors of his Satanism revolved around his real interest in spiritist, Alistir Crowley, but staunchly denies any involvement in Satanism.
5) They condemn the Christian rock band, Petra, for recording the KISS song, "God Gave Rock and Roll to You" yet Petra's version was recorded years before the KISS version.
6) They take a quote by bad Christian lounge singer, Carman, "It's all about the money" out of context in order to make it appear that he's condemning a Newsboys venture, yet their own footnotes show that Carman's own quote was made two years before the Newsboys thing.
7) They list David Pack, Barry Maguire, Bill Withers, Bob Dylan, Buddy Holly, David Wilcox, Phillip Bailey, Elvis Presley, Eric Clapton, Grand Funk Railroad, Jimmie Davis, John Berry, Johnny Cash, Kansas, Social Distortion, U2, Van Morrison, and, as only the whackos they are can do, the Cookie Monster as being "Extremely anti-christ people".
The truth:
David Pack: Christian.
Barry Maguire: Christian (one of the first mainstream artists to proclaim his Christianity publicly)
Bill Withers: Christian (later became a minister)
Bob Dylan: Professed his Christianity in the early seventies and made several gospel albums. Even though he no longer speaks publicly about his beliefs, he is active in Messianic Christian circles.
Buddy Holly: Raised in a Christian home. Grew up singing in church. Don't know if he ever publicly professed Christ but he's hardly an "extremely anti-christ person".
David Wilcox: Christian. Even made a few Christian albums in the 80's
Phillip Bailey: Christian. Made several Christian albums in the 80's and early 90's.
Elvis Presley: Professed Christ. sang gospel music all his life. Through mental illness and drug addiction, fell into a sinful lifestyle. Hardly a shining example but even less so an "extremely anti-christ person".
Eric Clapton: Professed Christ in the early 70's and included many overtly Christian songs in his days with Blind Faith and solo. Turned away from Christ but, following the death of his son and largely through the ministry of Christian rocker, Dana Key, has expressed interest in Christianity.
Grand Funk Railroad: Two thirds of the band, Mark Farner and Donnie Brewer are Christians. Farner even had a successful CCM career in the 80's and early 90's.
Jimmie Davis: In addition to being the governor of Louisiana, he was a minister and prolific gospel songwriter.
John Berry: During his bout with cancer in the early 90's, John Berry was a terrific witness for Christ.
Johnny Cash: One of the most outspoken Christian artists ever. Several gospel albums and wrote an excellent biography of the Apostle Paul called "The Man in White"
Kansas: With Kerry Livgren, Dave Hope, Michael Gleason John and Dino Elefante, all Christians in the band and with a good chunk of their songs containing Christian (or at least Christian-like) lyrics, it's hard to understand why they would be considered "extremely anti-Christian people".
All the above, except for Dave Hope, have gone on to successful careers in gospel music.
Social Distortion: While their style of music may be irritating to the more conservative Christian fundementalist, with 2/3 (Mike Ness and John Maurer) of the band being Christian, I think we can cross them off the list.
U2: Might be Christians, might not. They're lyrics are very sympathetic to Christian ideals, though.
Van Morrison: While he would appear to have turned away from Christianity, he did at one time profess Christ and even had a couple of CCM hits in the 80's, including "Whenever God Shines His Light"
The Cookie Monster: He's made no profession of faith but, despite spending time in Muppet rehab to battle a crippling cookie addiction, he seems to want to set an example for children that I think would be in line with Jesus' teachings.
Christians should be ware of his occasional colaborator, Elmo, who many theologians and Vegas odds makers believe may be the Anti-Christ.
I could go on and on but you get the point and we've all been through this a million times before.
The only thing that surprises me about that website is that they haven't had the pants sued off of them.
These guys love to quote the Bible but they always forget the verse that says that "The Lord hates a lying tongue".
Mike
[ September 20, 2002, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
AdoptedDaughter
New Member
Well.......you see Bro. Curtis, there is a difference between homosexuality and this issue of music. Ready for it?........
Homosexuality is in the bible defined as a sin, music, well.....I haven't seen any verses that says this music issue is a sin, or what styles of music is. This is called a gray area, and with gray areas we need to use our convictions, so, what you and Aaron, and many other people are posting about are your convictions, are they not?
~Teresa~
JonathanDT
New Member
First I’d like to address an earlier question.
DocCas, you have correctly defined CCM using a dictionary, however many people don’t use the dictionary definition. Personally, when I think of CCM I think of the soft-rock/pop of artists like Michael W. Smith, Sandi Patty, Michael Card, ect. I don’t think of Christian rock/alternative music as CCM. Audio Adrenaline, Skillet, Newsboys, Supertones, The Insyderz, I consider them part of the Christian rock scene, but not CCM. However, For the purpose of this post when I say CCMers I will be using the dictionary definition.
Why wouldn’t it be blessed? Your sadly mistaken if you think that it is a new thing to take a secular style of music and use Christian lyrics to set it apart as a tribute to God. In fact, they used to take it a step further, not just taking the style, but an actual melody. Today CCMers at least write their own melodies, unless of course it’s a parody.
However, I’m not sure why you say there can’t be Christian rock. Just because of its origins? Did you know Christmas was originally a pagan holiday? Using your logic, we’d better stop celebrating it.
There are certainly problems with CCM, but they arise from individuals, when they lose site of Christ, when they "sell out" for the money, when they get drunk from being on stage or simply famous and forget that they are but ministers of our Lord. I'm sure that Smoke Eater could list some more, but you get the point.
If you are going to say that CCM absolutely cannot glorify God simply because of what it is, then what else can't and why? Can I play baseball to the glory of God? Can I do my job to his glory? Can I do my school to his glory?
Your obviously intelligent and sound like you love the Lord, so I can’t wait for your response.
God Bless,
~JD
DocCas, you have correctly defined CCM using a dictionary, however many people don’t use the dictionary definition. Personally, when I think of CCM I think of the soft-rock/pop of artists like Michael W. Smith, Sandi Patty, Michael Card, ect. I don’t think of Christian rock/alternative music as CCM. Audio Adrenaline, Skillet, Newsboys, Supertones, The Insyderz, I consider them part of the Christian rock scene, but not CCM. However, For the purpose of this post when I say CCMers I will be using the dictionary definition.
No, I can’t tell you. But it certainly doesn’t say NOT to use it. I’m not sure where you get this “making evangelism the main purpose of music,” but most music from CCMers that I listen to is first to Glorify God, though often evangelism is an ulterior motive. I generally avoid bands/singers that I don't think put God at the center of their music. The one exception is POD, I simply enjoy some of their songs, and they are very talented.
To answer your questions: the flesh, everything from rock to classical, and the flesh. Not sure what your points are.
Why wouldn’t it be blessed? Your sadly mistaken if you think that it is a new thing to take a secular style of music and use Christian lyrics to set it apart as a tribute to God. In fact, they used to take it a step further, not just taking the style, but an actual melody. Today CCMers at least write their own melodies, unless of course it’s a parody.
I honestly don’t know, slightly before my time.
However, I’m not sure why you say there can’t be Christian rock. Just because of its origins? Did you know Christmas was originally a pagan holiday? Using your logic, we’d better stop celebrating it. I realize this isn't popular, but Christ was a rebel!! The trick is who and what he rebelled against. He rebelled against the Pharisees and their legalistic laws. He rebelled against Satan's earthly "kingship," and he rebelled against sin itself. Being a rebel in and of itself isn’t wrong, I’m commonly considered a rebel at the local high school, because I do things different then the status quote. I’m a hardcore Christian, I’m homeschooled, I work hard to keep my vocabulary clean, I won’t play sports on Sunday, ect. Wow. I’m terrible.
I agree with #1, the Bible says many times to praise God with singing. What verse are you basing #2 on? For #3, I can agree with this on principle, but I’m not sure where your basing this Biblically. And the last I think is optional. It CAN be used for evangelism, but certainly doesn’t HAVE to.
Yes that seems flawed, but it is also flawed to think that the reason you gave is the sole reason for CCM.
There are certainly problems with CCM, but they arise from individuals, when they lose site of Christ, when they "sell out" for the money, when they get drunk from being on stage or simply famous and forget that they are but ministers of our Lord. I'm sure that Smoke Eater could list some more, but you get the point.
If you are going to say that CCM absolutely cannot glorify God simply because of what it is, then what else can't and why? Can I play baseball to the glory of God? Can I do my job to his glory? Can I do my school to his glory?
Your obviously intelligent and sound like you love the Lord, so I can’t wait for your response.
God Bless,
~JD
RaptureReady
New Member
- Honestly?
Beautiful at times and sometimes the most appropriate version for certain occasions but there are times when the archaic language is so boring it's like watching paint dry (You may fire when ready - Mike dives behind the couch)
Smoke_Eater, as you may know by now, I believe the av1611 KJV to be the errant, infallible, inspired true Word of God. Yes, there are words in the bible that we do not use today, but I don't need another translation to help me figure out the meaning. You didn't agree with me on the last site about music, maybe you will agree with this site about archaic words: http://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158_04.asp
- Carman's kind of a special case. You have to consider who his audience is. It's mostly made up of people from the Word of Faith cult, who are especially given to hero worship.
I'm not really familiar with the Word of Faith cult. Is this the same as the charismatic movement?
- That's an interesting idea. Could you elaborate on how the antichrist's actions realte to CCM?
I believe the antichrist is in the church, new bibles, music, and anything else outside the pure Word of God (av1611 KJV). Also if you believe that all bibles are the Word of God, then why would you make a statement like... but there are times when the archaic language is so boring it's like watching paint dry, that is God's word that you are saying is boring. WOW!
- Does this mean that God is not honored by instrumental music?
Not when it sounds like the world.
- There are dozens of songs we sing in Baptist churches that remind me of "worldly" songs. Does this mean we shouldn't sing them anymore?
I can safely say that so far the songs in my church have not reminded me of worldly songs. I did have a friend of mine let me hear a tape of "Jars of Clay" which the first song reminded me of "Hootie and the Blowfish, and "Crash Test Dummies," but this may be part of that Word of Faith cult you were speaking about early.
- That's not a good site at all, Homebound. We've demonstrated many, many times before here that they engage in promoting urban legends as fact, shoddy journalism and outright lies to make their points.
Who is we and what part of the site are you talking about? And why would a site put out false information, knowing that it would be researched?
- Today, as folks on Baptist Board have heard me repeat 300 times, Alice is a born again Christian who is performing music with overtly Christian themes and has become an outspoken voice for Christ, as well as the unborn.
Well Smoke_Eater, I am new to BB and have not heard it 300 times. Praise God if Alice Cooper is saved, maybe he can be a good witness for hollywood.
By the way, how did you put my comments in the quote box?
Beautiful at times and sometimes the most appropriate version for certain occasions but there are times when the archaic language is so boring it's like watching paint dry (You may fire when ready - Mike dives behind the couch)
Smoke_Eater, as you may know by now, I believe the av1611 KJV to be the errant, infallible, inspired true Word of God. Yes, there are words in the bible that we do not use today, but I don't need another translation to help me figure out the meaning. You didn't agree with me on the last site about music, maybe you will agree with this site about archaic words: http://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158_04.asp
- Carman's kind of a special case. You have to consider who his audience is. It's mostly made up of people from the Word of Faith cult, who are especially given to hero worship.
I'm not really familiar with the Word of Faith cult. Is this the same as the charismatic movement?
- That's an interesting idea. Could you elaborate on how the antichrist's actions realte to CCM?
I believe the antichrist is in the church, new bibles, music, and anything else outside the pure Word of God (av1611 KJV). Also if you believe that all bibles are the Word of God, then why would you make a statement like... but there are times when the archaic language is so boring it's like watching paint dry, that is God's word that you are saying is boring. WOW!
- Does this mean that God is not honored by instrumental music?
Not when it sounds like the world.
- There are dozens of songs we sing in Baptist churches that remind me of "worldly" songs. Does this mean we shouldn't sing them anymore?
I can safely say that so far the songs in my church have not reminded me of worldly songs. I did have a friend of mine let me hear a tape of "Jars of Clay" which the first song reminded me of "Hootie and the Blowfish, and "Crash Test Dummies," but this may be part of that Word of Faith cult you were speaking about early.
- That's not a good site at all, Homebound. We've demonstrated many, many times before here that they engage in promoting urban legends as fact, shoddy journalism and outright lies to make their points.
Who is we and what part of the site are you talking about? And why would a site put out false information, knowing that it would be researched?
- Today, as folks on Baptist Board have heard me repeat 300 times, Alice is a born again Christian who is performing music with overtly Christian themes and has become an outspoken voice for Christ, as well as the unborn.
Well Smoke_Eater, I am new to BB and have not heard it 300 times. Praise God if Alice Cooper is saved, maybe he can be a good witness for hollywood.
By the way, how did you put my comments in the quote box?
JonathanDT
New Member
I'm not going to get into the KJV debate, however about that site. First, consider the source. Look around at the rest of the site. Second, they are basically comparing apples and oranges.
Would you rather he lie? IMHO, it's an archaic, hard to understand version of the Word of God, though certainly not without it's merits. Truthfully, I have a hard time enjoying and learning from God's word when I'm spending most of my time and energy translating the English into something that I can comprehend. And this is from someone who has grown up with every version of the Bible since I was a small child. Imagine what a new, less educated Christian must go through.
Why not? Chapter and verse please.
Because they seem to forget that they aren't the only ones in the information age who can easily verify their sources.
Truthfully, I think that they're like many secular "journalists", who care more about their "cause" then the truth. It's sad that something like that can take a hold in Christ's church. You see at the top of my post, their are different icons you can click? Their's profile, email, PM, edit, and on the far right there's a button that says quote.
RaptureReady
New Member
Romans 12:2Originally posted by JonathanDT:
Why not? Chapter and verse please.
[Just tightening up your UBB code. Don't worry, you'll learn it fast. Aaron]
[ September 20, 2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
Hello, JonathanDT and Homebound. Welcome to the Music Ministry Forum.
Homebound, to begin learning UBB code, you can click on the following URL.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=ubb_code_page
Homebound, to begin learning UBB code, you can click on the following URL.
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=ubb_code_page
I believe the av1611 KJV to be the errant, infallible, inspired true Word of God. Yes, there are words in the bible that we do not use today, but I don't need another translation to help me figure out the meaning.
Let's keep the discussion on track and not digress to a discussion of the KJV vs. Modern Versions here.
There is a forum on the Baptist Board dedicated to just such a discussion:
Bible Versions/Translations
Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron
[ September 20, 2002, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
Let's keep the discussion on track and not digress to a discussion of the KJV vs. Modern Versions here.
There is a forum on the Baptist Board dedicated to just such a discussion:
Bible Versions/Translations
Your friendly co-moderator,
Aaron
[ September 20, 2002, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
Homebobund, I read the link you included and there are some interesting points in it, but I don't see anything that precludes us from interpreting modern usage words into the translation, so long as the translation itself is accurate.
Please don't misunderstand, it's not the word of God itself that I find boring. It's "the power of God unto salvation" and I can't think of anymore exciting thing than a love letter from God Almighty telling us that He wants to reconcile with us.
No, it's the expression of God's word usung 600 year old language that I have a hard time getting a hold of.
Like I said, there are times when the KJV is the more appropriate version but there are times when it's almost painfully dry.
Not exactly.
It's a movement within the charismatic movement.
There are plenty of charismatics who hold to orthodoxy, but there is a growing movement that stresses "experience over exegesis" as Spurgeon would say.
Think Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul and Jan Crouch, Marilyn Hickey, etc.
Even though the birth of the movement is largely credited to Kenneth Hagin, it actually goes back to Essek W. Kenyon and William Branham (the bulk of Hagin's writings were largely plagerized from these two.
Whatever you may think of the teachings of Kenneth Hagin, these two were so far out in left field that they made Hagin look like a piker.
Although the idea of a "born again Jesus" (the idea that Jesus literally became the embodiment of sin by nature, rather than merely taking our sin upon himself and thus, having to go to Hell and suffer for His own redemption before he could redeem us) had been around for nearly two thousand years, it was Kenyon and Branham who really popularized it in the modern day church.
There are several false teachings of the Word of Faith cult that we can argue over(by the way, WoF is not generally recognized as a cult. I believe they are because of their views of the nature of all three members of the Godhead) but the idea of (a) a born again Jesus, (b) a corporeal, physical God, (c) nine persons in the Godhead are unacceptable to me and, I hope anyone who takes his doctrine seriously.
Please see my first point.
OK. See, this is where the problem lies. In all of the time I've been here and in all of the posts we've tackled this issue, we still haven't determined what "wordly" music is.
...And that's the second thing. Music is a very person thing. It affects everyone in different ways. Like I said earlier, anytime I hear, "I Should Have Been Crucified", all I can hear is Eddy Arnold singing "there goes my only possession..."
Just like what may be fine with me may be offensive to you, what may be fine to you may be offensive to another.
Yuck! I don't have have a problem with being derivative, as all music is to one point or another, but for crying out loud derive from something better than Hootie, although the Crash Test Dummies do have a few songs I like.
Not as far as I know.
Specifically, I was talking about the part of the site in which they deal with rock and pop music.
Off the top of my head, I don't remember who all was in on the discussions but they're still around here somewhere if you'd like to look them up.
The reason they say these things even though they know that people can look it up for themselves is because they know that people won't.
They know that, even though we say we want to be Bereans, we're too lazy to really do it.
They know that your average Christian (particularly us fundies) would just as soon take the word of a fellow Christian, especially if they agree with us.
They're also counting on the fact that your average Christian is woefully ignorant of pop-culture.
I think they're counting on the fact that most people who go to their site are already biased against popular music and are looking for an excuse to say, "Aha!".
Welcome. I have a lot of respect for someone who comes in and dives right in to the most controversial topic on the board.
I'm sorry if my "300 times" statement sounded curt.
From everything I've heard, Alice has been an outstanding witness for Christ. He says that he spends most of his time at home in Pheonix with his family and close to his church, so I don't know what his impact in Hollywood is, but from everything I've heard, he is a strong Christian voice in his community.
At the top of everyone's posts, there are a series of icons "Profile", "Edit", "Quote", etc.
Just click on quote to include someone's entire statement and edit it from there.
To break someone's statement's up into smaller points, like I did with yours, just put "qb" and "quote" in brackets (sorry I can't show you but the computer thinks I'm giving it a command) at the beginning of the statement and "/qb" and "/quote" at the end.
I have to do this because I have a terrible memory and I don't want to misquote anybody. It's also easier to address someone's specific concerns this way (especially for me. I'm easily distracted
Mike
If you read my post, you would not see me making a judgement on music. I am saying, as an undecided spectator, your post did very little to convince me towards your viewpoint.
RaptureReady
New Member
Thank you for the welcome Smoke_Eater. Aaron, sorry about getting off track, I will try to keep the discussion on the topic at hand. I guess music and other bibles are a hard topic for everyone to agree upon and I guess it may lie upon personal convictions for some people. For me, I did a test(just bear with me). Me and my boy(4 yr old) where riding down the road listening to the old hymns. After the song was over, I turned the station and scanned across a CCM station and my son started to bob his head. I then turned it to a rock station and he continued to bob his head. I then turned it back to the old hymns station and he stopped bobbing. I did this about 4 times and every time he bobbed his head. What did this mean? I took this as the flesh likes the beat, moving music and the spirit likes the calm less or no beat music. This really nailed the nail in the coffin for me about CCM.
JonathanDT
New Member
Romans 12:2Originally posted by HomeBound:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JonathanDT:
Why not? Chapter and verse please.
</font>[/QUOTE]Ok. However, millions of athiests drive cars, so we shouldn't. Millions use computers and the internet, sometimes for not so good reasons. There are secular choirs, so all choir music should be banned. Elton John plays the piano, so no more pianos in church. The organ is used in baseball stadiums all across the country, so no more organs. Heck, there are even accapela groups and choirs, so you can't even sing accapela. Do you see my point? You can't ban something simply because it also exists or was even created by the secular world.
That's a rather unscientific test you ran there, way too many variables to come to a decisive conclusion about why he bobbed his head, and what it means. First, why does bobbing his head mean his flesh likes it? Are you saying that bobbing, or even taking it to the extreme and actually dancing are Biblically wrong? Second, he's only 4, certainly not trained. In the old hymns it can sometimes be hard to pick out the beat, it simply isn't as pronounced. I've studied music for a little while now, and can find the rhythm in most music, however that's after a good deal of music lessons. My point is, maybe if your son had the training to recognize the beat he would bob his head to the hymns too, I sometimes find myself absent-mindedly patting my leg to the rhythm of the hymns. And you can't say a beat is bad, because ALL music is both melody and rhythm, and if you say that a pronounced beat is wrong, where do you draw the line? When it's noticeable by me? By your average listener? When you can easily clap to it? Just when there's an actual drum set? Third, why conclude that his spirit liked the hymns? Because you saw no reaction? Because you like the music? Too often even "science" is taking a predetermined conclusion, and then fitting the "evidence" to match this conclusion. I've done a couple science projects, and it's very tempting to squeeze the evidence to support your hypothesis.
Have you ever heard "I can Only Imagine" by Mercy Me? If you only listen to one CCM song ever in your life, this is the one. I can just see David while still a shepherd sitting, watching his sheep while singing this song.
AdoptedDaughter
New Member
My viewpoint? Ummmm....I haven't posted my viewpoint in quite a while, and my post was not to try to sway you towards my viewpoint, even if I was trying to prove a point. I think that this debate is overdone and it's been done too many times. There is so many better things that we could be doing with our time than debating whether or not we should listen to CCM when it's your convictions, in a gray area such as this, will tell whether or not you should.
Have a blessed Sunday, though!
~Teresa~
Hi Homebound,
Like I said earlier, there are five billion people on the planet and no two of them react to music the same way.
When I hear certain hymns, a great deal of emotion wells up inside me. Does that mean that the hymns appeal to my flesh?
I don't think so. I think it means that they connect with some feeling or idea inside me.
I would nod my head or tap my feet to hymns, too, except that, as a rule, they are so rigid as to discourage any sense of celebration.
(BTW, in spite of that, I actually prefer hymns in most church settings and I often read from an old hymnal during my devotion time at home)
On the other hand, I'm not sure I understand how simply not bobbing your head shows that your "spirit" likes a certain kind of music?
There are a lot of songs (in fact, Metallica's "One" is playing in the bacxkground right now) that I couldn't imagine nodding my head or tapping my feet to, but I'm sure they don't appeal to the spirit.
Mike
Here is a request that has to date not been answered:
Though the scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites, Christ did not oppose the authority of their office, and instructed His disciples to submit to their teaching, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do," Matthew 23:2-3.
In response to JonathanDT's assertion:
Christ was not a rebel, He was a reformer, and there is a big difference. But more importantly, the distinction between "good" rebellion and evil rebellion offered here is not Biblical. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry, 1 Samuel 15:23.
Though the scribes and Pharisees were hypocrites, Christ did not oppose the authority of their office, and instructed His disciples to submit to their teaching, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do," Matthew 23:2-3.
Christ was NOT a rebel. He was not a law-breaker, but the law-giver. He wasn't somebody who bucked authority. He is someone who came to Earth and did exactly what his daddy told him to do.
A Fiery Fundamentalist
New Member
Despite being solidly Fundamentalist, I come into contact with neo-evangelicals nearly every day, and I have become sick and tired of listening to them parrot a lot of Campus Crusade trash, including the notion that Jesus Christ was a rebel. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus was a rebel or behaved in any way indicative of that? Whoever came up with that hocus-pocus idea obviously forgot or ignored the depraved sin nature of man. Mankind is, and has been, in rebellion against God since Adam first rebelled. God is the King and Sovereign Ruler of all Creation, whereas Satan, his devils, and humankind are revolutionaries who, having either blatantly or in his heart of hearts said the five "I Will's" of Isaiah 14:12-14, are bent on overthrowing God and exalting themselves above Him and His throne. As Christians, we are not rebels but loyal subjects of our omnipotent and merciful King.
As loyal subjects, we are not to follow the revolutionary ways of the rebellious world. God created many beautiful things which Satan has twisted and perverted. That includes music. However, comtemporary music os by no means the first example of such perversion of music. Throughout history, much of the music used for pagan rituals and observances was designed to stir up emotions, make the participants lose themselves, and often work them up into a frenzy. An example of this that survives into the present is the music of Taoism. In contrast to the traditional Chinese music, which is soft, flowing, and meditative, Taoist music is a loud, harsh cacophony designed to do much of what pagan music was designed to do.
Today, we Christians are facing a similar intrusion into our sacred music. Traditionally, at least since the Reformation, the music has always pointed to the lyrics, which teach one or more sound Biblical doctrines. The hymns were the music of the Reformation, the Wesleyan Revival, the Great Awakenings, and the rest of the great era of revivals that ended after World War II. In contrast, the music of CCM is designed to stir the emotions of the participants, to make them "lose themselves" supposedly in God's presence (how ironic it is that Christians, after having found God and salvation, would want to be lost!), and, in the case of the Pentecostal/Charismatics who originated and dominate CCM, whip them up into a frenzy. When the Bible commands us to be "in the world and not of the world" and "wherefore be ye separate, saith the Lord," it is apalling and tragic that we as Christians should use pagan forms of worship. "But the lyrics are good and justify the music," I am often told. For one thing, trying to justify that music by the lyrics would be, as I heard one preacher say, like sending the love of your life a Gothic Dracula card saying, "I love you." And for another thing, to compare the lyrics of CCM to those of the hymns is like comparing a spoonful of cotton candy to a 48 oz. porterhouse steak. With CCM, you lose the sound Biblical doctrine; that often includes salvation. Instead, you get these repetitive lyrics that often promote a palatable but false doctrine. Those who say, "but CCM is the only way to reach people these days" are stuffing God inside an electric guitar.
Believe me, I know what I am talking about; I spent most of my life in CCM, and I thank God profusely unto all eternity that he saved me from CCM after he saved my soul. God's blessing upon you all, and I pray that this post will be of benefit to someone.
As loyal subjects, we are not to follow the revolutionary ways of the rebellious world. God created many beautiful things which Satan has twisted and perverted. That includes music. However, comtemporary music os by no means the first example of such perversion of music. Throughout history, much of the music used for pagan rituals and observances was designed to stir up emotions, make the participants lose themselves, and often work them up into a frenzy. An example of this that survives into the present is the music of Taoism. In contrast to the traditional Chinese music, which is soft, flowing, and meditative, Taoist music is a loud, harsh cacophony designed to do much of what pagan music was designed to do.
Today, we Christians are facing a similar intrusion into our sacred music. Traditionally, at least since the Reformation, the music has always pointed to the lyrics, which teach one or more sound Biblical doctrines. The hymns were the music of the Reformation, the Wesleyan Revival, the Great Awakenings, and the rest of the great era of revivals that ended after World War II. In contrast, the music of CCM is designed to stir the emotions of the participants, to make them "lose themselves" supposedly in God's presence (how ironic it is that Christians, after having found God and salvation, would want to be lost!), and, in the case of the Pentecostal/Charismatics who originated and dominate CCM, whip them up into a frenzy. When the Bible commands us to be "in the world and not of the world" and "wherefore be ye separate, saith the Lord," it is apalling and tragic that we as Christians should use pagan forms of worship. "But the lyrics are good and justify the music," I am often told. For one thing, trying to justify that music by the lyrics would be, as I heard one preacher say, like sending the love of your life a Gothic Dracula card saying, "I love you." And for another thing, to compare the lyrics of CCM to those of the hymns is like comparing a spoonful of cotton candy to a 48 oz. porterhouse steak. With CCM, you lose the sound Biblical doctrine; that often includes salvation. Instead, you get these repetitive lyrics that often promote a palatable but false doctrine. Those who say, "but CCM is the only way to reach people these days" are stuffing God inside an electric guitar.
Believe me, I know what I am talking about; I spent most of my life in CCM, and I thank God profusely unto all eternity that he saved me from CCM after he saved my soul. God's blessing upon you all, and I pray that this post will be of benefit to someone.