ROMANS 3:10-12 DOESN'T SUPPORT "TOTAL INABILITY"

Even without looking at the greek, it screams of inability. If the bible says that no one seeks God, who does that no one not include? It is everyone. Meaning that there is not one person who seeks God. No one past, no one present, and no one to come seeks God. How is that not inability? If there is no one who will, who is not included in that? That seems to say inability to me.

Then you add the greek, and it is very evident. Ouch!

 

I agree 100%! "Seems" is far too weak a word!

Romans 3 demolishes free will. If nobody ever does something "of their own free will," then the phrase "of their own free will" is an illusory concept.

As I keep pointing out, if you let go of a rock in mid air, it falls. It is just a mind game to say that a rock is free to go up and down, but that it can only go up if given assistance from some outside force like a human hand.

Okay, Yelsew, that's your cue to point out that a rock is not made in the image of God...

 

This is exactly what inability is addressing. The natural condition of human beings--what they are on their own, what they are without the intervention of God through the working of His Spirit. </font>[/QUOTE]"Having the ability" and "Using the ability" are not equals. Romans 3 says that man has the ability, but that man does not use the ability because something else is lacking,...knowledge. They know that something is missing in their lives, but they don't know what it is, so they didn't recognize it when it was living among them.

 

I agree 100%! "Seems" is far too weak a word!

Romans 3 demolishes free will. If nobody ever does something "of their own free will," then the phrase "of their own free will" is an illusory concept.

As I keep pointing out, if you let go of a rock in mid air, it falls. It is just a mind game to say that a rock is free to go up and down, but that it can only go up if given assistance from some outside force like a human hand.

Okay, Yelsew, that's your cue to point out that a rock is not made in the image of God... </font>[/QUOTE]OK, you admit it, will you also admit that using an inanimate lifeless object to illustrate a principle that requires animation and life is truly a very stupid thing to do?

 

What is being refuted here is total inability. You asked for biblical reference. We have given them to you. From Romans 3 to 1 Corinthians 12, as well as the knowledge we have of the nature and depravity of man. So what is hte problem with this arguement?

 

Your proof texts do not prove that man is not capable! They do provide strong argument that man does not have the desire or motivation to do God's will, hence they do not do God's will.

In virtually every scripture you post the implication is that man does have the ability! If Ability were not there, then Judgment cannot be administered for doing the wrong thing. Man is not judged on what man cannot do, but rather on what they can do.

If one has no ability to do the right thing, how can he be judged? Even man in his legal judgements man takes "ability" into consideration. That is why "mental incapacity" is a strong defense for those so limited.

 

You say none of the scriptures say we are not able?

1 Corinthians 12:3 "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit."

The word "can" is dunamai, which is power or ability. There's your inability.

Then you say that God cannot find someone guilty for doing what they cannot do? Paul answers that same question in Romans 9, "How can God still judge us, for who resists His will? But I say to you, who are you oh man to talk back with God? Can what is formed say to Him who formed it, "why did you make me like this?"

You see, you ought to read your bible before you post stuff like this.

 

Calvinism has always said that "cannot" comes from "will not". There is a sense in which they are able--after all, they have a functioning will--but they are so dead set against God, so intransigently obstinate, that left to their own devices everyone of them will will always reject Him. This is what inability is as theologically defined is and this is supported by Romans 3.

BTW, I agree that people in their natural state lack knowledge, but they lack knowledge of their own choice. They purposefully exchange whatever knowledge of God can be gleaned from creation for a lie, because they prefer the lie. At the base of inability is a heart problem (prefering the lie), not a knowledge problem.

Romans 1 tells us that deep down, they do know what is missing because they have already seen it and rejected it. They prefer to try to fill that void with something more like they are--with "an image in the form of corruptible man" rather than "the glory of the incorruptible God."

No it doesn't. It just says that simply hearing a presentation of the gospel is not enough. After all, these are people who have already rejected what they do know about God, because they prefer an inadequate, corruptible answer to the real, eternal, incorruptible one. Simply telling them more about God is not going to change the fact the they are already God rejectors.

In order for the gospel to bring about their salvation, it must be accompanied with the inner working of the Spirit upon that knowledge rejecting heart. It is this calling of the Spirit accompanied by the message of the gospel that results in salvation, that makes the preaching of Christ crucified into "the power of God and the wisdom of God" rather than a stumbling block and foolishness.

No, as I state above, we believe that the message of the gospel accompanied by the inner drawing of the Holy Spirit is enough to enable man to have faith:

...We preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness...

To the Jews, as a general rule, the message of the gospel, when they hear it, is a stumbling block. To the Gentiles, as a general rule, it is foolishness.

But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God

It is those who are called (from among both Jews and Gentiles) who see the gospel as it really is--as the power of God and the wisdom of God. This is the effectual calling. It is effectual because it changes how the preaching of Christ crucified is perceived. It is the key to the gospel beeing seen as the power of God rather than a stumbling block, as the wisdom of God rather than foolishness.

 

"for who resists His will?" We have the ability to resist the will of God. God allows us to resist His will. That does mean that we have the ability, and we may even have the desire to resist God's will. It is by that we are judged.

No, I am not saying that God is powerless against man. Man never wins in confrontation with God. But man may be turned over to his unrighteousness by God, and in Judgement those whom God turned over to their unrighteousness, and even though of the "elect", their names will be blotted from the Book of Life.

 

OK, you admit it, will you also admit that using an inanimate lifeless object to illustrate a principle that requires animation and life is truly a very stupid thing to do? </font>[/QUOTE]Not at all. That's the point of the illustration. If we are unable to "decide" for God without the enabling power of the Spirit, we are in the same position as that rock. The illustration points out just how lifeless is our "free will".

Your retort is to say "we are not lifeless because we are made in the image of God". But that's just an empty statement. It does not solve the problem of why we are unable to "decide" for God without the power of the Holy Spirit, therefore it doesn't even address the reason for the illustration, let alone disprove the principle it illustrates.

But I knew you'd say it anyway, so I added that comment to save you the trouble.

 

OK, You be the rock, I'll be the image of God! Argument over!

 

Salvation is not by knowledge. If that were the case then all smart people would go to heaven. Salvation is that of a change of the heart. Can man change that? No, only God can. Is there a general call, yes. Many are called, few are chosen.

I never denied that verse 21 was there, in fact I am thankful that it is there. It does not however state that all have the ability to believe that which heard.

 

Bro Bill I have told you before, if your looking for one verse, we have given you several. You do not see inability in them. So we take a look at the character of man throughout scripture and it screams of inability. We see Romans 3:10-12 where it says that no one will seek God, and we ask the question, "who is left from that that can seek God?" But you refuse to see. You imply that man has ability just as I imply that man does not have ability. It boils down to your view of man. Knowing myself and my depravity, I cannot see it. But you will say that is my assumption. I will also say that your hope that man can choose God is your assumption as well.

The best you can hope for is a stalemate.

 

Sturgman,
Lack of desire does not equal inability!

Lack of desire implies that capability is present but not used.

Inability implies that capability does not exist regardless of desire.