ROMANS 3:10-12 DOESN'T SUPPORT "TOTAL INABILITY"

[sturgman]

Even without looking at the greek, it screams of inability. If the bible says that no one seeks God, who does that no one not include? It is everyone. Meaning that there is not one person who seeks God. No one past, no one present, and no one to come seeks God. How is that not inability? If there is no one who will, who is not included in that? That seems to say inability to me.

Then you add the greek, and it is very evident. Ouch!

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by sturgman:
Even without looking at the greek, it screams of inability. If the bible says that no one seeks God, who does that no one not include? It is everyone. Meaning that there is not one person who seeks God. No one past, no one present, and no one to come seeks God. How is that not inability? If there is no one who will, who is not included in that? That seems to say inability to me.

I agree 100%! "Seems" is far too weak a word!

Romans 3 demolishes free will. If nobody ever does something "of their own free will," then the phrase "of their own free will" is an illusory concept.

As I keep pointing out, if you let go of a rock in mid air, it falls. It is just a mind game to say that a rock is free to go up and down, but that it can only go up if given assistance from some outside force like a human hand.

Okay, Yelsew, that's your cue to point out that a rock is not made in the image of God...

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by russell55:
BB,

I don't know why you are saying Romans 3 doesn't support inability when you have used it to prove inability yourself. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> .....
2. No one on their own seeks God......

2. Without the call of the Spirit....no one would could know anything about God for no one seeks him on their own.
3. Without the intervention of God through the working of His Spirit and the call of the gospel we would all still be turned away....

This is exactly what inability is addressing. The natural condition of human beings--what they are on their own, what they are without the intervention of God through the working of His Spirit. </font>[/QUOTE]"Having the ability" and "Using the ability" are not equals. Romans 3 says that man has the ability, but that man does not use the ability because something else is lacking,...knowledge. They know that something is missing in their lives, but they don't know what it is, so they didn't recognize it when it was living among them.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by sturgman:
Even without looking at the greek, it screams of inability. If the bible says that no one seeks God, who does that no one not include? It is everyone. Meaning that there is not one person who seeks God. No one past, no one present, and no one to come seeks God. How is that not inability? If there is no one who will, who is not included in that? That seems to say inability to me.

Then you add the greek, and it is very evident. Ouch!

Do you guys even read my posts? Do you even know what Arminians beleive? It doesn't sound like it because your not addressing the real issue here!!!

I admitted in my first post, as Russell55, pointed out AGAIN, that on our own without the intervention of the Spirits call and the appointing of the gospel we would be without hope of righteousness or the ability to seek God.

This is why he seeks us through the preaching of the gospel throughout the world. Calvinism downplays the speading of God's word as His means of "seeking and saving that which is lost." People don't go looking for the gospel, but if we, as disciples, obey God the gospel will seek them out and with the calling of the Spirit to Salvation a man has everything needed to respond in faith to what he has heard. (The only exception to this is if he has been hardened by his continual rejection of God's calling in his life, as were the Israelites)

You guys would like to ignore the fact that Arminians beleive that the general call of the gospel and the HS are necessary for man to respond. We do beleive that the Fall has had a huge effect on mankind and that without God's intervention of Christ's work and the appointing of the apostles we would be without hope and "TOTALLY UNABLE" TO DO ANYTHING FOR OURSELVES!

But obviouly you don't think Christ's work and the call of the HS through the gospel is enough to enable man to have faith. So, you have created a higher calling, a unique calling, an "effectual calling" that no one could resist, but there is just one problem! THE BIBLE DOESN'T SUPPORT THAT!

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sturgman:
Even without looking at the greek, it screams of inability. If the bible says that no one seeks God, who does that no one not include? It is everyone. Meaning that there is not one person who seeks God. No one past, no one present, and no one to come seeks God. How is that not inability? If there is no one who will, who is not included in that? That seems to say inability to me.

I agree 100%! "Seems" is far too weak a word!

Romans 3 demolishes free will. If nobody ever does something "of their own free will," then the phrase "of their own free will" is an illusory concept.

As I keep pointing out, if you let go of a rock in mid air, it falls. It is just a mind game to say that a rock is free to go up and down, but that it can only go up if given assistance from some outside force like a human hand.

Okay, Yelsew, that's your cue to point out that a rock is not made in the image of God... </font>[/QUOTE]OK, you admit it, will you also admit that using an inanimate lifeless object to illustrate a principle that requires animation and life is truly a very stupid thing to do?

 

[sturgman]

What is being refuted here is total inability. You asked for biblical reference. We have given them to you. From Romans 3 to 1 Corinthians 12, as well as the knowledge we have of the nature and depravity of man. So what is hte problem with this arguement?

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by sturgman:
What is being refuted here is total inability. You asked for biblical reference. We have given them to you. From Romans 3 to 1 Corinthians 12, as well as the knowledge we have of the nature and depravity of man. So what is hte problem with this arguement?

Your proof texts do not prove that man is not capable! They do provide strong argument that man does not have the desire or motivation to do God's will, hence they do not do God's will.

In virtually every scripture you post the implication is that man does have the ability! If Ability were not there, then Judgment cannot be administered for doing the wrong thing. Man is not judged on what man cannot do, but rather on what they can do.

If one has no ability to do the right thing, how can he be judged? Even man in his legal judgements man takes "ability" into consideration. That is why "mental incapacity" is a strong defense for those so limited.

 

[sturgman]

You say none of the scriptures say we are not able?

1 Corinthians 12:3 "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit."

The word "can" is dunamai, which is power or ability. There's your inability.

Then you say that God cannot find someone guilty for doing what they cannot do? Paul answers that same question in Romans 9, "How can God still judge us, for who resists His will? But I say to you, who are you oh man to talk back with God? Can what is formed say to Him who formed it, "why did you make me like this?"

You see, you ought to read your bible before you post stuff like this.

 

[russell55]

"Having the ability" and "Using the ability" are not equals. Romans 3 says that man has the ability, but that man does not use the ability because something else is lacking,...knowledge.

Calvinism has always said that "cannot" comes from "will not". There is a sense in which they are able--after all, they have a functioning will--but they are so dead set against God, so intransigently obstinate, that left to their own devices everyone of them will will always reject Him. This is what inability is as theologically defined is and this is supported by Romans 3.

BTW, I agree that people in their natural state lack knowledge, but they lack knowledge of their own choice. They purposefully exchange whatever knowledge of God can be gleaned from creation for a lie, because they prefer the lie. At the base of inability is a heart problem (prefering the lie), not a knowledge problem.

They know that something is missing in their lives, but they don't know what it is,

Romans 1 tells us that deep down, they do know what is missing because they have already seen it and rejected it. They prefer to try to fill that void with something more like they are--with "an image in the form of corruptible man" rather than "the glory of the incorruptible God."

This is why he seeks us through the preaching of the gospel throughout the world. Calvinism downplays the speading of God's word as His means of "seeking and saving that which is lost."

No it doesn't. It just says that simply hearing a presentation of the gospel is not enough. After all, these are people who have already rejected what they do know about God, because they prefer an inadequate, corruptible answer to the real, eternal, incorruptible one. Simply telling them more about God is not going to change the fact the they are already God rejectors.

In order for the gospel to bring about their salvation, it must be accompanied with the inner working of the Spirit upon that knowledge rejecting heart. It is this calling of the Spirit accompanied by the message of the gospel that results in salvation, that makes the preaching of Christ crucified into "the power of God and the wisdom of God" rather than a stumbling block and foolishness.

But obviouly you don't think Christ's work and the call of the HS through the gospel is enough to enable man to have faith. So, you have created a higher calling, a unique calling, an "effectual calling" that no one could resist,

No, as I state above, we believe that the message of the gospel accompanied by the inner drawing of the Holy Spirit is enough to enable man to have faith:

...We preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness...

To the Jews, as a general rule, the message of the gospel, when they hear it, is a stumbling block. To the Gentiles, as a general rule, it is foolishness.

But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God

It is those who are called (from among both Jews and Gentiles) who see the gospel as it really is--as the power of God and the wisdom of God. This is the effectual calling. It is effectual because it changes how the preaching of Christ crucified is perceived. It is the key to the gospel beeing seen as the power of God rather than a stumbling block, as the wisdom of God rather than foolishness.

 

[Yelsew]

Then you say that God cannot find someone guilty for doing what they cannot do? Paul answers that same question in Romans 9, "How can God still judge us, for who resists His will? But I say to you, who are you oh man to talk back with God? Can what is formed say to Him who formed it, "why did you make me like this?"

"for who resists His will?" We have the ability to resist the will of God. God allows us to resist His will. That does mean that we have the ability, and we may even have the desire to resist God's will. It is by that we are judged.

No, I am not saying that God is powerless against man. Man never wins in confrontation with God. But man may be turned over to his unrighteousness by God, and in Judgement those whom God turned over to their unrighteousness, and even though of the "elect", their names will be blotted from the Book of Life.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Okay, Yelsew, that's your cue to point out that a rock is not made in the image of God...

OK, you admit it, will you also admit that using an inanimate lifeless object to illustrate a principle that requires animation and life is truly a very stupid thing to do? </font>[/QUOTE]Not at all. That's the point of the illustration. If we are unable to "decide" for God without the enabling power of the Spirit, we are in the same position as that rock. The illustration points out just how lifeless is our "free will".

Your retort is to say "we are not lifeless because we are made in the image of God". But that's just an empty statement. It does not solve the problem of why we are unable to "decide" for God without the power of the Holy Spirit, therefore it doesn't even address the reason for the illustration, let alone disprove the principle it illustrates.

But I knew you'd say it anyway, so I added that comment to save you the trouble.

 

[Yelsew]

OK, You be the rock, I'll be the image of God! Argument over!

 

[William C]

Originally posted by russell55:
This is why he seeks us through the preaching of the gospel throughout the world. Calvinism downplays the speading of God's word as His means of "seeking and saving that which is lost."

No it doesn't. It just says that simply hearing a presentation of the gospel is not enough. After all, these are people who have already rejected what they do know about God, because they prefer an inadequate, corruptible answer to the real, eternal, incorruptible one. Simply telling them more about God is not going to change the fact the they are already God rejectors.

That just the problem I was addressing. You believe that the gospel is "simply telling them more about God" and that cannot "change the fact they are already God rejectors. See, you equate the gospel presentation, which is empowered by call of the Spirit, with the presentation of just any ol' lump of information. God's word does not return void, it is the power of God unto salvation. The only people who it wouldn't have the ability to affect are those God doesn't want it to effect....Hardened Israel.

In order for the gospel to bring about their salvation, it must be accompanied with the inner working of the Spirit upon that knowledge rejecting heart. It is this calling of the Spirit accompanied by the message of the gospel that results in salvation, that makes the preaching of Christ crucified into "the power of God and the wisdom of God" rather than a stumbling block and foolishness.

I agree, but you assume that this Spirit's calling is always irresistable, but even Calvinist admit that their is a general calling of the Spirit to all man. Obviously, this calling is not sufficient to save? Then, what is it's purpose?

No, as I state above, we believe that the message of the gospel accompanied by the inner drawing of the Holy Spirit is enough to enable man to have faith:

Then what to you do about the general call of the HS to all mankind?

To the Jews, as a general rule, the message of the gospel, when they hear it, is a stumbling block. To the Gentiles, as a general rule, it is foolishness. But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God

I know I Cor. 1 is one of the Calvinist favorite passages but I notice they never seem to include verse 21.

21Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe.

You used the term "as a general rule" when speaking about the tendencies that Jews and Gentiles have when responding to the call of the gospel.

This is also true of Jesus' words when he says, "Lord I thank you that you have hidden these things from the wise but have revealed it to babes."

The tendency of the gospel of being received by wise and learned people, in the eyes of the world, was not very likely. Why? Because the Gospel is foolishness by the standards of the world. Many in Israel were hardened by their rebellion and the scholarly Gentiles saw the message as foolish.

But to those who are called of the Jews and the Gentiles who don't think they are too wise and too righteous for the message are less likely to refuse the message of the cross.

This is what Jesus was speaking about. He knew that the gospel would not be received by hardened men or those who were too full of themselves to believe, but by simple child like people. There are many external factors that affect man's will:

Money -- Look at the Rich young ruler. When he turned away from Christ Jesus specifically said that it is more difficult for a rich man to enter into the kingdom than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Why? If men are chosen by God before the foundation of the world and effectually called, what difference would their wealth make on their coming into the kingdom? The only way this makes any sense is if a man's will is involved in deciding or "considering the cost" of following Christ. Money blinds the hearts of many people.

Envy -- Jealousy is also spoken of in scripture as having the ability to envoke the will of man unto salvation as seen in Roman 11.

Pride or Self Righteousness or Worldly Wisdom -- Jesus came to save the sinner not the righteous. Everyone is a sinner, but not everyone is willing to acknowledge that fact. This pride can blind the heart as is spoken of in 1 Corinthians. God chose to reveal the truth through a foolish gospel, by the world standards, so that "common" folks, non-influential people, the meek of the world, would recieve it.

With Respect,
Bill

 

[sturgman]

Salvation is not by knowledge. If that were the case then all smart people would go to heaven. Salvation is that of a change of the heart. Can man change that? No, only God can. Is there a general call, yes. Many are called, few are chosen.

I never denied that verse 21 was there, in fact I am thankful that it is there. It does not however state that all have the ability to believe that which heard.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by sturgman:
I never denied that verse 21 was there, in fact I am thankful that it is there. It does not however state that all have the ability to believe that which heard.

Faith comes from hearing. (Rom. 10:17) But that doesn't mean everyone who hears places his faith in what he heard. Some explain it away. Some consider the cost and don't want to give up what they have. The ability to believe is implied by the fact that the scripture does call "everyone" and "whosoever," its only when the Calvinistic dogma indoctrinates someone that they wouldn't think that we have that ability.

Where does the scripture ever say that mankind as a whole doesn't have the ability to believe the gospel?

 

[sturgman]

Bro Bill I have told you before, if your looking for one verse, we have given you several. You do not see inability in them. So we take a look at the character of man throughout scripture and it screams of inability. We see Romans 3:10-12 where it says that no one will seek God, and we ask the question, "who is left from that that can seek God?" But you refuse to see. You imply that man has ability just as I imply that man does not have ability. It boils down to your view of man. Knowing myself and my depravity, I cannot see it. But you will say that is my assumption. I will also say that your hope that man can choose God is your assumption as well.

The best you can hope for is a stalemate.

 

[William C]

Stugman,

Then why do you come to this board?

 

[Yelsew]

Sturgman,
Lack of desire does not equal inability!

Lack of desire implies that capability is present but not used.

Inability implies that capability does not exist regardless of desire.