Arminian vs. Calvinist handling of scripture

Hi Npetreley;
Since my smiley face offends you, I won't use anything for you to determine my mood and to what intent I'm asking any questions.I'm not being deceiving as, maybe you suggest.
All Arminians believe in election just not unconditional election.For instance when I tell my brother about the Love of Christ and he visibility shows that he is drawn, but because of pride resist You say he isn't drawn because he isn't chosen, but nowhere does the Bible say we cannot resist.This is total conjecture on the Calvinist end
In your statement about Joshua 24:15 It may not say we have free will there but when we hear the Gospel we have to listen. God draws us then we have the opportunity to accept or deny the Calling of the Holy Spirit.
You want to claim that we have no choice then show where it says we have no Choice you haven't done that yet.
A quote from you;
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These "missing points" would not be as big a problem for free-will advocates if they would simply provide other scriptures to address them. But they do not. There are no scriptures that say that the mechanism by which we choose to serve the LORD is free will. So when pressed on this, they add these conclusions from logic, inference, or just-so stories about how we were created and what that means.
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Now look who's offering logic about Joshua 24:15 You say this verse doesn't say we have free will but then you accuse Arminians that they use logic. What are you doing? You haven't proven that your theory is truth, you are only assuming it has because as you say free will is not in this verse.This verse implies choice.You just can't see it because of your own logic...
Jn.5:21Actually it says that both offices of the God head quickenth who they will... They quickenth those who believe first.
Jn.3:14-15 actually says whosoever which defined by Strong's dictionary defines as anyone
G3956

πᾶς

pas

pas

Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Even though you refuse to see truth. I still try to get you to see that you are the one who is interpreting scripture. Not scripture interpreting scripture. you see it as you want and as Augustine wanted you to.Not as God intended and perhaps Arminians see this in Calvinist and choose to leave you to your own interpretations.All anyone can do is plant the seed if it doesn't grow it's not there fault.Maybe the next Christian will convince you.Point for point the Calvinist loose because you will never know that you can love as a choice of your own.If we have no choice then why are we given the choice.If we cannot believe on our own where is your proof, you have none.You are just assuming in your logic.


Romanbear

 

npetreley,

I realize the impression of my comments leaves you disatisfied. It may seem like I'm "ignoring the challenge" but I must remind you that I do not believe in the Arminian view of "choice". I'm not going to defend a theology I believe is false.

 

Npetreley;

I'm not here for a personal war with you. I'm here to discuss Bible doctrine. If you do not wish to answer my post then don't.You cannot claim that there is no one who will oppose your doctrine because I clearly have and you don't seem to know how to answer.Prove if you can the unconditional part of election. You can't.... I agree about the election I just don't agree about unconditional .Show me in scripture where it says we have no choice....Prove grace is irresistible....Prove Christ didn't die for all people on this planet.

This verse is a thorn in the side of Calvinist.because it gives us the choice to open the door.It also says any man.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

We have decisions to make and it seems to me that Calvinist just like the Catholic Church doesn't want people to make any decisions for Christ.Have you made a decision for Christ? Let me urge you to do so.it'll change your life just like it did mine.You are a very intelligent person. I just don't understand why, when confronted, you come back with sarcasm.

Romanbear

 

Hi Npetreley;
But you haven't demostrated that we can't hear or decide to hear.
Romanbear

 

If the text doesn't say it, what necessitates further proof that it doesn't say it?

 

Hi Npetreley;
You will also notice the the word "open" implies a decison for action because the door must be opened before Christ can come in
Romanbear

 

Hi Npetreley;
It doesn't say what you think it says.This verse certainly does not support your Calvinist views even when you infer that it says something else other than the way it reads
Romanbear

 

Hey Romanbear,

Do me a favor and post who this scripture was written too?

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Let me know if it was,

A) Every person who walked the earth.
B) The church of Laodicea - aka abody of believers.

If the first, then you might have a point, if the second then he is speking to the church and this does not make it a matter of justification but of sanctification.

Clarify this for us.

 

Only 10 scriptures? What does that prove?

They gave you the word "open"!

 

Hi sturgman;
Are you challenging me to zee dual? a little humor there to break the ice.
The letter is to the church of Ladociea and the church is not a church we will see in heaven unless they repent.This not just a matter of justification for just a few.The church of Ladoicea was lost because if they don't repent they are spewed out of his mouth because they are luke warm. You cannot be saved without repentance.Even if you open the door.It's obvious to me that the Church in question was lost what say you?If lost then this verse applies to everyone.After all belonging to a church does not make you one of the elect does it. This next verse also implies everyone.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Notice it doesn't say just a few Calvinist.It says "whosoever", define in the strongs dictionary as anyone, or all.

On Guard

Romanbear

 

npetreley,

I do not necessarily agree with romanbear’s usage of Rev. 3:20. Nor do a necessarily disagree with your (and sturgman’s) rebuttals. Yet with all due respect, I don’t see how your scripture references prove anything.

Deuteronomy 29:4 – Context? This concerns Israel, the chosen nation of God. How are you applying this?

John 8:47 – Phrase “of God” or “not of God”, I assume you’re saying this means “born again” or “lost. Where do you get this conclusion? Context?

Proverbs 20:12 – So? This doesn’t say anything about God predestinating some to “hear and see”.

Isaiah 32:1 – Context? Again concerns the covenant people of God? Doesn’t say anything concerning human ability.

Matthew11:15 and MANY other places – This phrase is a command and doesn’t say anything about human ability.

Matthew 13:10 – Again, says nothing of human ability. This refers back to Israel, the covenant people of God.

Romans 11:8 – Same as above. All about Israel, the covenant people of God.

 

npetreley,

There have been just as many debates on the John 3:16's, the "all"'s, and the "whosoever wills". So I'm not sure what you're looking for from anyone. I've noticed as well that in these debates, you and many others, use scriptures like those you just referenced as rebuttals.

You posted your scrptures as a result of romanbear's "burden of proof" request, correct? So if you decide to post scripture to prove your point, why not discuss them? IMO, they prove just about as much as those scriptures used by Arminians to support their points.

 

Hi Npetreley;
You quoted duet.29:4
Who was He talking with was it Gentiles or the people who followed him in to the desert.It's obvious you have made this in to something it is not.This verse was sarcasm from Moses to the Jews.The next verse Jn 8:47 was addressed to the Pharasee'sProverbs 20 :12 Yes he did make ears to hear and eyes to see Isaiah 32:1-3. I know your going to tell me that this is what says it all Yes and this is what it says
Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.
Isa 32:2 And a man shall be as a hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land.
Isa 32:3 And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Except what he says is if they have ears let them hear.

And good old rom 11 : 8 Paul was talking about the blindness of the Jews.
You still have shown nothing that backs up a single thing you are claiming you are intrepting the scripture when you go back and read each verse they say something else. Not what you say.You got to do better than this, I'm really disapointed.May be no Arminians want to argue over what you think scripture says or wish it to say.You see I'm not an Arminian I'm a Christian I go by the Bible not men.
Romanbear