did Christ die for all?

first i want to tread carefully with this issue, i am somewhat unsettled with this issue. but if Christ died for all sin that would include unbelief and while we were still in unbelief Christ died for those who he foreknew (His elect) my question maynot be answerable, if Christ died for everyone's unbelief then that would insure universal salvation would it not? it is apparent that those who believe do not have this special virtue to believe on any merit of their own unless God gives it correct? if anyone believes that they heard the gospel and according to the wooing of the Holy Spirit choose of their own free will and not resisted as some others would, then they were very spiritually smart while the stubbornness of others were not so smart, does any one believe this?
my belief is that God draws His elect and drawing is not wooing. otherwise the word woo would be used instead of draw.

i do believe that Christ died so everyone is invited to come, yet only those who God draws will hear the calling. i know it is a contradiction but i believe it.

Dear Massdak,
I don't know if that is a contradiction or not, no man knows any of the elect, therefore the gospel is commanded to be preached to all. I agree with you that the drawing of the elect is not a wooing, not a courtship, it is the effectual drawing of the elect by the Holy Spirit. And I believe in line with Ps.110.3 that in the day of his power his people will be made willing.

I guess this is hard to understand for some, but this is how I believe it.

God Bless
bro. Dallas

This discussion rightly belongs in the Calvinism Forum, which was established for subjects focusing on the doctrines of Grace.

If the resurrection of Jesus Christ From the dead declares that He is more powerful than death and that he is the representative of "All" men guilty of sin.

then death towards all men is powerless.

if all sin was not atoned for, then death would still have a purpose an power.
death would be able to be declare even more powerful than Christ.. By God himself.
That death has the authority and power to hold the souls of men and that their sins were not atoned for via the resurrection of Christ.

also proving that christ did not die for "all" sin of "all" men.

that is the question to Christians.
Is death more powerful than Christ?

or..

Is he lord even over Death?
meaning that death has no power over "all" man.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

scriptures states that death IS to be declared to be defeated towards all men guilty of sin through the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

then cant one conclude that it hasent been completely manifested yet to all men yet.

what of those who have died not knowing of Christ in this lifetime.
we must await the judgement of men after their death to see if the scriptures concerning Christ victory over even the power of death is true.

If we have proof that we ourselves have experienced being raised from the dead. and this resurrection power to be true.

can we conclude that God will judge all men equally?

Me2

Massdak,
Jesus, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, was crucified to atone for the sins of the world. That means all the sins ever committed including Adam and Eve in the Garden, and henceforth and forever to come.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that the Christ's Atonement, the spilling of his holy blood, was for the sins of LESS THAN THE WHOLE of mankind.

Nothing in scripture says that atonement applies only from the death of Jesus foreward.

Therefore one must conclude that all mankind is covered by the blood of Jesus. Thus it is that Sins are not accounted to mankind in judgement. Jesus paid the penalty for sins...period! We also know from scriptures that there is nothing that mankind can do to earn salvation. The "works" of man are seen by God as "filthy rags", and no one saves "filthy rags", we all discard them. With Sins paid for, and Works not considered for Salvation, that leaves FAITH ALONE as the criteria for Salvation.

Atonement does not equate to Salvation! Jesus, the Son of God told us that Belief in Him, plus nothing, equates to Salvation.

Not even the eating of His flesh and the drinking of his blood can bring salvation. Nor does baptism bring salvation. for those are acts of obedience that one does after one believes in Jesus, not before.

Now it may be true that God established from the foundation of the world, some out of every generation who would be, by some mysterious compulsion, drawn to belief in God (Jesus) and thereby be saved. It may be these that are identified as "the elect". But the scriptures do not say that only the elect can believe, and they do not say that "only the elect" will receive salvation. But Jesus says, "Whosoever believeth in Jesus the Son of God Shall be saved."

The scriptures do not say that all mankind is Totally Depraved, but that All have sinned. Consider what God did at least twice before to those whose depravity became their god! In Noah's day, God caused the world to be flooded, thus drowning all but those alive in the ARK that God commanded Noah to build for his salvation. In Abraham's day, God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, saving only Lot, Abraham's cousin, and His two daughters because Abraham begged Him to, and Lot and daughters obeyed God.

If Mankind is Totally Depraved as Calvinism says they must be, then why has God withheld his wrath? Why has God extended His Grace and provided for the Salvation of ALL who believe in His Son? He did not do that for Noah's generation, nor for Sodom and Gomorrah. Though He would have if those people had repented from sinning!

God's Grace is for ALL mankind, indeed for ALL of Creation, and God's grace was established in the Garden with Adam and Eve.

Massdak, You can be confused by Calvinism if you want to be, or you can reject all the "isms" and Believe in Christ Jesus, and view scriptures from His perspective, He is, after all God the Son, the Savior of Mankind, and indeed, all of Creation.

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Massdak,
Jesus, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, was crucified to atone for the sins of the world. That means all the sins ever committed including Adam and Eve in the Garden, and henceforth and forever to come.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that the Christ's Atonement, the spilling of his holy blood, was for the sins of LESS THAN THE WHOLE of mankind.

Nothing in scripture says that atonement applies only from the death of Jesus foreward.

Therefore one must conclude that all mankind is covered by the blood of Jesus. Thus it is that Sins are not accounted to mankind in judgement. Jesus paid the penalty for sins...period! We also know from scriptures that there is nothing that mankind can do to earn salvation. The "works" of man are seen by God as "filthy rags", and no one saves "filthy rags", we all discard them. With Sins paid for, and Works not considered for Salvation, that leaves FAITH ALONE as the criteria for Salvation.

Atonement does not equate to Salvation! Jesus, the Son of God told us that Belief in Him, plus nothing, equates to Salvation.

Not even the eating of His flesh and the drinking of his blood can bring salvation. Nor does baptism bring salvation. for those are acts of obedience that one does after one believes in Jesus, not before.

Now it may be true that God established from the foundation of the world, some out of every generation who would be, by some mysterious compulsion, drawn to belief in God (Jesus) and thereby be saved. It may be these that are identified as "the elect". But the scriptures do not say that only the elect can believe, and they do not say that "only the elect" will receive salvation. But Jesus says, "Whosoever believeth in Jesus the Son of God Shall be saved."

The scriptures do not say that all mankind is Totally Depraved, but that All have sinned. Consider what God did at least twice before to those whose depravity became their god! In Noah's day, God caused the world to be flooded, thus drowning all but those alive in the ARK that God commanded Noah to build for his salvation. In Abraham's day, God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, saving only Lot, Abraham's cousin, and His two daughters because Abraham begged Him to, and Lot and daughters obeyed God.

If Mankind is Totally Depraved as Calvinism says they must be, then why has God withheld his wrath? Why has God extended His Grace and provided for the Salvation of ALL who believe in His Son? He did not do that for Noah's generation, nor for Sodom and Gomorrah. Though He would have if those people had repented from sinning!

God's Grace is for ALL mankind, indeed for ALL of Creation, and God's grace was established in the Garden with Adam and Eve.

Massdak, You can be confused by Calvinism if you want to be, or you can reject all the "isms" and Believe in Christ Jesus, and view scriptures from His perspective, He is, after all God the Son, the Savior of Mankind, and indeed, all of Creation.

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yelsew you have very small perception, no where at anytime have i ever posted anything that would let a reasonable Christian think that i didn't believe on the Lord Jesus. you are not very astute toward knowing the person that you reply to. i am disappointed that your understanding of what i believe to be mystery that you seem to have all figured out. please do not post to me again.

Atonement does not equate to Salvation! Jesus, the Son of God told us that Belief in Him, plus nothing, equates to Salvation.

Click to expand...

atonement equals ...positional salvation...

as we live in our physical bodies. we are told to rest in the "works of jesus alone". we are to rest "in him". "In his faith of what he holds to be true".

we simply hold to the truths which he chooses.

Is faith allowing us to make decisions between error and truth?.

No.

We live by the choices he has made already.

we are simply told to "accept" truth (or Not).

anything less than accepting the truth which Christ has already defined is allowing our imaginations to create a "false truth". a "false faith"...namely, our own.

Christ destroyed Death for all men wether they realize this or not. He was placed in death and resurrected from death because this was the WILL OF HIS FATHER.

Gods will has nothing to do with allowing man to disagree with his decisions. the Father did this activity to prove that his Son was worthy above all powers.

man simply acknowledges this truth.
and he cant disagree. Jesus is Lord.

Our problems is defining Gods will for man TODAY.
which is that he has provided positional salvation for all.

Today God chooses "some" to become Christs "body" in ages to come. which within this context or partial plan, which can be interpreted in the bible, with the inclusion of some "failing" to acheive this "position", yet even by failing to live by faith, they still retain their "positional salvation" as all men do.

Jesus has provided salvation from death for all men.
He has proven to all that death is powerless.
No CHRISTIAN can disagree with this FACT.

Me2

OK Massdak, then post where I cannot!

IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE!

Originally posted by yelsew:

In Abraham's day, God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, saving only Lot, Abraham's cousin, and His two daughters because Abraham begged Him to, and Lot and daughters obeyed God.

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Abraham begged him? So God operates according to man's will and not his own?

Here is the word of God:

17  And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

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atonement equals ...positional salvation...

Click to expand...

And where does one find "positional salvation" in the scriptures?

Jesus lived so that we may live by believing in Him, who and what He is, not what he did!

Jesus Died to atone for the sins of the world! He willingly paid the penalty for the sins of ALL the world from Adam and Eve foreward. Thus Jesus saved us from our sins. But we are still not saved into eternal life by His Death!

Jesus arose from the Grave victorious over death, conquering death to provide additional proof of who and what He is. By his rising from the grave, He demonstrated his power to save those who believe in Him, even if that should include ALL mankind. Scriptures tell us though that not all of mankind will believe.

Jesus ascended from the eyes of man into the Father's presence and sits at His right hand. Man witnessed this never before event so that we have additional evidence of who and what Jesus is.

By accepting the evidence before us and believing in Jesus, we have Jesus' promise to save us, not just from our sins, but into eternal life with Him. The Atonement saves us from our sins, but does not save us into Eternal life. Jesus told us that it is our believing in Him that saves us into "everlasting life".

Gods will has nothing to do with allowing man to disagree with his decisions. the Father did this activity to prove that his Son was worthy above all powers.

man simply acknowledges this truth.
and he cant disagree. Jesus is Lord.

Our problems is defining Gods will for man TODAY.
which is that he has provided positional salvation for all.

Click to expand...

I see nothing in scripture regarding "positional salvation. Our problem is not "our defing God's will for man TODAY", our problem is the same problem that mankind has faced since Adam, and that is believing in, and obeying God! No one will obey that which they do not believe in!

Today God chooses "some" to become Christs "body" in ages to come. which within this context or partial plan, which can be interpreted in the bible, with the inclusion of some "failing" to acheive this "position", yet even by failing to live by faith, they still retain their "positional salvation" as all men do.

Click to expand...

The body of Christ includes all who are doing what the Christ set in motion, the preaching of the Good news to all mankind, all over the world, in every tongue. The Body of Christ includes those who work in "supporting roles" as well, those who provide the finances, those who provide the moral support, those who attend to the needs of the ones on "the front lines" in the battle for the hearts, mind and spirit of mankind.

Jesus has provided salvation from death for all men.
He has proven to all that death is powerless.
No CHRISTIAN can disagree with this FACT.

Click to expand...

Granted, but Salvation is by FAITH in God (Jesus) alone, and the only "position" that salvation assumes is FAITH. Either you have it or you don't!

Originally posted by Frogman:
Originally posted by yelsew: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In Abraham's day, God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, saving only Lot, Abraham's cousin, and His two daughters because Abraham begged Him to, and Lot and daughters obeyed God.

Click to expand...

Abraham begged him? So God operates according to man's will and not his own?

Here is the word of God:

17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

Click to expand...

</font>[/QUOTE]"and if there be fifty righteous?" "For the sake of fifty I will spare the city", "and if there be 20?", etc. The fact is Abraham was pleading with (begging, if you will) God to spare the Place where Lot lived. God spared Lot, His wife and daughters by sending them away with the warning "do not look back". Lot's wife looked back, end of her story. Thus the only one's saved were those who believed and obeyed God, Lot, and his two daughters.

Originally posted by massdak:
first i want to tread carefully with this issue, i am somewhat unsettled with this issue. but if Christ died for all sin that would include unbelief and while we were still in unbelief Christ died for those who he foreknew (His elect) my question maynot be answerable, if Christ died for everyone's unbelief then that would insure universal salvation would it not? it is apparent that those who believe do not have this special virtue to believe on any merit of their own unless God gives it correct? if anyone believes that they heard the gospel and according to the wooing of the Holy Spirit choose of their own free will and not resisted as some others would, then they were very spiritually smart while the stubbornness of others were not so smart, does any one believe this?
my belief is that God draws His elect and drawing is not wooing. otherwise the word woo would be used instead of draw.

i do believe that Christ died so everyone is invited to come, yet only those who God draws will hear the calling. i know it is a contradiction but i believe it.

Click to expand...

I think you're on to something here, Massdak. May our Lord quicken and make alive His drawing (in the Greek = dragging) men to Himself.

The book of Romans, especially chapter 5, makes it abundantly clear that all have sinned; Christ died for all while they were yet sinners; that just as death was imputed to all men from the transgression of one man, Adam, righteousness would be equally be imputed to all mankind. Did men "choose" to die? No, it was imputed to them. In exactly the same way, no one can "choose" life. It is also imputed to them.

This teaching of "deciding" to follow Jesus is a lie and a teaching of THE TRADITIONS OF MEN. Did Jesus' disciples choose Him? Did Paul, "choose" to follow Jesus? No! He chose to persecute the church. Jesus called him and he became a bond-slave who was shown what he must suffer for His name's sake. Did not Paul say that he was made the example of those who would follow? He said that he was the chiefest of sinners and he was "dragged" to the throne of grace. "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all long-suffering, as a PATTERN to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting (aionian) life.

It was saving grace which caused us to open our mouth to even be able to confess His name!! Salvation is all of God, not of man lest you boast in your own works, even if it is as simple as boasting in your "decision." This way of thinking will surely lead to self-righteousness and spiritual death.

Ask, seek and knock on this Massdak. God will show you.

Continued blessings upon you.

GH

GH, is man saved without man's willingness to be saved?

The example of Paul's conversion does not apply to any but Paul, otherwise it would not have been noteworthy.

The example of Paul's life, and Christian testimony, after his conversion, is to be emulated by all who are converted, whether conversion is by direct intervention of the Christ, or by the subtlety of persuasion by the Word.

If God gives man NO CHOICE in the matter, then why would God expend all the effort to preserve his Word, which contains the prophets, kings, and the apostles. Is it not by the testimonies of those authors, whose compiled works make up the bible, that man is persuaded to believe, and what to believe?

I do not deny that some from every generation are "the elect" and that their purpose may be to evangelize by the preaching of the word. Now I am not saying that only the clergy are the elect. but rather that among the whole there are those whose faith is a guidepost to all others. And that in each generation there are those who are elected to be those guideposts.

Even so, salvation is by Faith Alone, and Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And Jesus said, "whosoever believeth in Him (Jesus) should not perish, but have everlasting life". And Jesus said, "whosoever believeth is not judged, but whoever believeth not is judged already by their unbelief."

I believe Jesus, I believe in Jesus, I believe in God! Though it is difficult, I try very hard to be obedient to God.

Originally posted by GH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by massdak:
first i want to tread carefully with this issue, i am somewhat unsettled with this issue. but if Christ died for all sin that would include unbelief and while we were still in unbelief Christ died for those who he foreknew (His elect) my question maynot be answerable, if Christ died for everyone's unbelief then that would insure universal salvation would it not? it is apparent that those who believe do not have this special virtue to believe on any merit of their own unless God gives it correct? if anyone believes that they heard the gospel and according to the wooing of the Holy Spirit choose of their own free will and not resisted as some others would, then they were very spiritually smart while the stubbornness of others were not so smart, does any one believe this?
my belief is that God draws His elect and drawing is not wooing. otherwise the word woo would be used instead of draw.

i do believe that Christ died so everyone is invited to come, yet only those who God draws will hear the calling. i know it is a contradiction but i believe it.

Click to expand...

I think you're on to something here, Massdak. May our Lord quicken and make alive His drawing (in the Greek = dragging) men to Himself.

The book of Romans, especially chapter 5, makes it abundantly clear that all have sinned; Christ died for all while they were yet sinners; that just as death was imputed to all men from the transgression of one man, Adam, righteousness would be equally be imputed to all mankind. Did men "choose" to die? No, it was imputed to them. In exactly the same way, no one can "choose" life. It is also imputed to them.

This teaching of "deciding" to follow Jesus is a lie and a teaching of THE TRADITIONS OF MEN. Did Jesus' disciples choose Him? Did Paul, "choose" to follow Jesus? No! He chose to persecute the church. Jesus called him and he became a bond-slave who was shown what he must suffer for His name's sake. Did not Paul say that he was made the example of those who would follow? He said that he was the chiefest of sinners and he was "dragged" to the throne of grace. "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all long-suffering, as a PATTERN to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting (aionian) life.

It was saving grace which caused us to open our mouth to even be able to confess His name!! Salvation is all of God, not of man lest you boast in your own works, even if it is as simple as boasting in your "decision." This way of thinking will surely lead to self-righteousness and spiritual death.

Ask, seek and knock on this Massdak. God will show you.

Continued blessings upon you.

GH </font>[/QUOTE]thank you gh i liked your post and i would like to have permission to use it, if you would agree to that, i will copy it and use it possibly on a different forum for discussion.

Those whom Christ came to redeem - will be redeemed!

There are several Bible terms used to describe the same people.

1. His people. Matthew 1:21 states that He....shall save his people from their sins.

2. His sheep. John 10:15 Our Lord said "I lay down my life for the sheep."

3. His friends. John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

4. His church. Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it." Acts 20:28 "feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Christ died for and purchased the church with His own blood. Does this sound like He died for the world? No, for there is a vast difference between the world and the church.

5. His elect. Rom.8:32,33 "He that spared not his own son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." The "us all" in this passage is clearly identified to be God's elect. Does this soundlike Christ was delivered up for the whole human race? No, friends,no.

Just a few verses that God opened my eyes to see.

by His Grace
mike

Originally posted by GH:
The book of Romans, especially chapter 5, makes it abundantly clear that all have sinned; Christ died for all while they were yet sinners; that just as death was imputed to all men from the transgression of one man, Adam, righteousness would be equally be imputed to all mankind.

Click to expand...

Great post, Diane.

That would be a great post Diane, if not for Romans 5.19
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Note the context it will usually clear up any confusion.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

GH [/qb][/QUOTE]thank you gh i liked your post and i would like to have permission to use it, if you would agree to that, i will copy it and use it possibly on a different forum for discussion. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Shout it to the rooftops, Massdak, with my blessing. And may God open up many eyes and hearts to the truth of it. Good news, isn't it?

Bless you, GH

Jesus Christ, Savior of the world, especially of those who believe \o/

Originally posted by Frogman:
That would be a great post Diane, if not for Romans 5.19
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Note the context it will usually clear up any confusion.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

Click to expand...

Bro. Dallas,

I think scripture speaks for itself:

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Why don't you be brave and seek the Holy Spirit on this. Lay aside the traditions of men and what you've been taught by others. Let HIM teach you. This is just a suggestion, but if you believe that you have a choice in the matter then go for it. Don't believe me. After all you'll know it when He shows you. It is the ONLY way.

Bless you in your search for Him, GH

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GH:
The book of Romans, especially chapter 5, makes it abundantly clear that all have sinned; Christ died for all while they were yet sinners; that just as death was imputed to all men from the transgression of one man, Adam, righteousness would be equally be imputed to all mankind.

Click to expand...

Great post, Diane.

</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks Kenny

I hope all is well with you and yours.

I'm still in the furnace of affliction, but He is with me. Praise His holy Name!!!\o/ His plan for me is good and I rely on Him to bring it to pass. For it is His will that all men be saved. And His will is irresistible

Love in Him, Diane