did Christ die for all?

Frogman,

The context says in verse 9 that "God purified their hearts with faith." Then verse 11 says "no, we believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that we are saved in the same manner as they are", which is by a heart purified by faith!

I answered your questions accurately to the scriptures! There is no deception on my part. If you want a specific outcome, you need to set the stage toward that outcome and you did not "set-up" for the outcome you wanted.

In a previous post, I also gave you a list of Scriptures that contain the word "elect", I don't think you bothered to look at them in their context.

I trust that you will not remove Isaiah from your bible just because the faithful prophet of God states clearly that Israel, all of Israel is God's elect. You see, Isaiah recognized what all of Israel's enemies knew instinctively. God has a favorite people on this earth, and that in the end, God will save them too! Otherwise you can continue in your myth that only the "elect" will be saved.

 

You know, Israel has been scattered, the tribe of Dan is lost, perhaps, just perhaps all who shall be saved are really of Israel. But wait, there is that blasted Apostle Paul again in Rom. ch. 11 talking about a remnant according to the election of grace, he just won't shut up about that grace stuff will he. O, and what about ch. 10.1-3, and my goodness look at Rom. 9 where he declares he would give his place in Christ that Israel might believe. Now, it seems somewhere I heard him say that Israel is not all Israel, but that the seed was by promise, and these are they which are the children of Abraham. My goodness, didn't he use to be a pharisee? Look at the traitor now, no wonder his Jewish brethren let Rome remove him from his head. After all, he was turning the whole world on theirs. What about that crazy man calling himself a voice in the wilderness? Who'd he think he was coming and baptizing in the name of the coming messiah? I do declare, I even heard him say one day not to think that we had Abraham to our father for God can raise up children of the very stones, can you imagine, such illogical statements as that, why Herod was wise in taking his head. But not before that political insurrectionist Jesus of Nazareth who called himself the king of Israel declared that we all were not of our father Abraham because we did not the works of Abraham. Why who'd he think he was. We all going to be saved yep, cause we special, them gentile dogs ain't got no chance cept they come by way of Solomon's Temple, you betcha!!

Yeah, it would make a box office hit, but it ain't Bible. Just ain't Bible. I agree there is a remnant in Israel, will they be saved because they are wearing the star of David, no.


They will come just as Peter said they would, believing their salvation is through the Grace of Jesus Christ.

Note your proof text Yelsew, vs. 9, doesn't it do wonders for your man can choose humanistic theology? Tell me what it says again, please, it sounds like that amazing grace, oh how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, yeah, I once was blind but now I see, was lost but now I am found. I am found because he came to seek and to save that which was lost. Nowhere does it say He came and I must seek to be saved. I will only seek after him if haply I feel after him (Acts 17). O, the precious blood of Jesus that eternal fount, How am I to find its source when I can't reach as far into eternity past as it flows? How can I reach its source when I can't even see the end of it in my life? How do I claim such great wealth as the richness of His Grace, upon my own merit? I must say...Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?

Bro. Dallas

 

Note your proof text Yelsew, vs. 9, doesn't it do wonders for your man can choose humanistic theology? Tell me what it says again, please, it sounds like that amazing grace, oh how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, yeah, I once was blind but now I see, was lost but now I am found. I am found because he came to seek and to save that which was lost. Nowhere does it say He came and I must seek to be saved. I will only seek after him if haply I feel after him (Acts 17). O, the precious blood of Jesus that eternal fount, How am I to find its source when I can't reach as far into eternity past as it flows? How can I reach its source when I can't even see the end of it in my life? How do I claim such great wealth as the richness of His Grace, upon my own merit? I must say...Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?

Bro. Dallas


Now, that's just downright beautiful brother.

GH

 

GOD HAS NO FAITH!
Is there anything that God hopes for?
Anything that God cannot see?

God has no need of faith, and faith is something that cannot be given. God put into man the ability to have faith, and the object of faith is not important to that fact. Now I challenge you to prove me wrong! If one can have faith in anything, one can have faith in God...and for all the right reasons.

Since God has no faith to give to man, faith must be of man! Faith is what God is looking for in man, check out the Old Testament, Noah's faith, Abraham's faith, Joseph's faith, the faithful prophets, etc. The New Testament is the covenant of faith. Why? Because faith is the only thing that man can have that works in man's favor. Faith is the ONLY thing by which man can be saved! But it is not faith in man that saves, it is faith in God only for only God can save!

And it is faith in God that purifies man's heart. With one's faith in God, one is going to do and be what pleases God. Just like the faith you have in your spouse causes you to do and be what pleases your spouse. God is the object of faith that causes a pure heart.

You cannot refute that truth. And until you discover the truth of God and his creation, you will continue to waller around in the mire of your incorrect thinking.

The truth is that God has no faith to give to man. Faith is not a commodity. Faith is something that comes from within each person who has it, and everyone was given, by God, the ability to have faith in God. If not there would be no bible, there would be no once-for-all atonement, there would be no church, and the real true Body of Christ would be revealed and it would be a lot smaller in number than you now visualize.

If you take off your religion colored glasses, you can see the true facts. while you are wearing those religion colored glasses you are bound to the opinions of others.

Look at the true essence of faith.
What is faith?
What causes faith?
Can one have faith for another?
Can one give another one's faith?
Is faith volatile?

Please remember to keep Faith and Faithfulness separate for they are not the same thing.

 

Who purified?
By what?

My statement does not say God has nor that he has need of faith. Your imagination says that. What is the action performed in the sentence?

purified. Who performs this action? God. How did He perform this action [purification]? by faith.

It is that simple.

Bro. Dallas

 

Purification of the heart is relative to the content. "Purification of the heart" is another description of FAITH, which cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. If one has God in one's Heart, then the heart is purified, Faithful, to God. If one has Satan in one's heart, then one's heart is purified, faithful to, Satan. Pure holiness or pure evil. Scripture says, "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he" Whatever is in the heart of man guides the man, "the life of the flesh is spirit (heart of man).

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

God calls on man to believe in Him! Draws all men to Him. God is the only one who can save, but man has the ability, and can believe whatever man wants to believe. No man is forced to believe in God or any other being or entity.

That is why we have a bible and why we have preachers, and why we have church, it is all a matter of persuasion. God wants to persuade man to believe in Him, so that whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life. Evil uses virtually every kind of persuasion devices, TV, Radio, Music, etc., all aimed at claiming the hearts (spirit) and minds of mankind. If you don't know this then you are one of the most gullible persons I've encountered.

 

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Purification of the heart is relative to the content. "Purification of the heart" is another description of FAITH, which cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. If one has God in one's Heart, then the heart is purified, Faithful, to God. If one has Satan in one's heart, then one's heart is purified, faithful to, Satan. Pure holiness or pure evil. Scripture says, "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he" Whatever is in the heart of man guides the man, "the life of the flesh is spirit (heart of man).

I would hardly classify evil as pure, but if it works for you...hey, who am i? Scripture also says something about calling evil good and good evil.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

I just can't make that kind of comparison making evil equivalent to good. Sorry.

God calls on man to believe in Him! Draws all men to Him. God is the only one who can save, but man has the ability, and can believe whatever man wants to believe. No man is forced to believe in God or any other being or entity.

I don't disagree with any of this. Except God is the only one who can save, but man has the ability, and can believe whatever he wants. What you say here contradicts what you are trying to say. You are right that only God can save, so there is no ability available for man. The work of God in saving includes man's belief in Christ.

That is why we have a bible and why we have preachers, and why we have church, it is all a matter of persuasion. God wants to persuade man to believe in Him, so that whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life. Evil uses virtually every kind of persuasion devices, TV, Radio, Music, etc., all aimed at claiming the hearts (spirit) and minds of mankind. If you don't know this then you are one of the most gullible persons I've encountered.

Always what God wants and never what God wills, right? Persuasion is by the Spirit of God. How do you claim something that you have to persuade?

I am not too gullible, I have continuously and Biblically resisted your humanistic philosophy.

 

How did you come to believe? You came to believe because of what you 'heard' from the Bible, and from the mouth of men, not because you were there to witness the events as Peter was, and not because of some force by which you could not act on your own volition to believe. You believed therefore you were made holy by the Holy Spirit that now lives within you because you believed. You were not first regenerated from Totally Depraved, you were persuaded to submit your "SELF" to the death burial and resurrection of Life through your faith in Jesus Christ. By submitting your self to God, you were made whole in the spirit by the spirit of God.

 

I would hardly classify evil as pure, but if it works for you...hey, who am i? Scripture also says something about calling evil good and good evil.</font>[/QUOTE]Pure evil is just as pure as pure holiness. Purity is relative to the substance, and not a matter of change from one substance to another. You should know that.

You'll have to explain the difference between the "wants" and "wills" of God. I see no difference in them. An allpowerful being does whatever he wants and or wills. Jesus says it is the father's will that NONE should perish, yet, many perish, WHY? If all powerful God cannot save them is He truly all powerful? Or does he leave it up to man to make the choice?

 

Now, I guess I can say that I know I should know that, can't I.

You are the one arguing for the 'wants' of God. I maintain that God performs his will.

In your post, you 'seem' to be making God evil. God doesn't cause evil, but "allows" it? What does this mean?

Did God create everything? Was evil an unknown He could not plan for?

Bro. Dallas

 

First, I did not invent the concept, I but I believe it. Scriptures say there is life and there is death, choose life! Scriptures say there is good and there is evil, choose good! "do unto others as you would have others do unto you."

Scriptures DO NOT SAY, "there is life and there is death but you do not have a choice" Scriptures do not tell us of Good and of Evil then tell us we cannot choose to be either.

It is appointed unto man once to die then the judgment! That is not the death of man, because man lives beyond the grave, either to pass from death unto life, or to face the judgment of God and be cast into the second death...oops! Into the Lake of fire, which is the second death.

Please tell us all what the difference is between "God's will", and "God's wants". Please be specific about the difference!

Evil exists because God allows it to exist. There is coming a time when that choice will no longer be available. That time will be after God casts Satan, his demons, the man of perdition, the false prophet, and all those who do not believe in their hearts that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah.

Evil exists, so does Good! Therefore, the struggle for the soul of man is one of good and evil. Man's struggle in life is one of believing in the good or believing in and submitting to the evil.

 

God wills that Pharoah shall let his people Go. (Three days into the wilderness to worship him in the place He will show them, think about that, three days...) God's wants, his secret will is that He will is that he shall judge this nation Egypt for their treatment of Israel. Go back to Gen. 15 I think, when God made a covenant with Abram and because there was none greater he sware by himself.

What am I explaining this for, you already know all of this.

Bro. Dallas

 

Why do you suppose God didn't simply change the hearts of the Egyptians so that they would let His people go without all the dramatics, and death? I mean, it was God's will that His people be set free was it not?

Does that mean that God is not sovereign over the Egyptians? It is God's sovereignty that is at issue here, is it not?

Why did he let the Egyptians choose to let His people go?

Why didn't God simply extract his people from the midst of the Egyptians?

Why all the dramatics if it is not a matter of persuasion?

 

Then how would you resolve the following two verses?

Exodus7:3 "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.”

Exodus 8:15, “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said.

 

Does this not answer the question?

Bro. Dallas

 

What is the purpose of "signs and wonders" if not persuasion?

Who does God perform signs and wonders for? Is he trying to impress other Gods?

If God saves only the elect, why does he perform signs and wonders? Is it not to persuade? If only the elect are saved, there is no reason to perform signs and wonders.

[ October 12, 2003, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Do you not distinguish between my persuasion and the persuasion of the Power of God?

Bro. Dallas

 

Persuasion is persuasion, and its purpose is the changing of the human mind. It does not matter who is doing the persuasion, or the method of persuasion. It is the human mind (spirit) that is the target of persuasion. And it is the human spirit God's will is persuading.

 

Then the individual persuaded there is a supreme being, but paying homage and worship to multiple deities. Even these are persuaded. But are these persuaded through truth to believe truth?

Proverbs 14: