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Rapture
- Thread starter fgm
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In the context perhaps of the Book of Hebrews but in other places in the Scripture either directly or by allusion the resurrection is equated with the very end.
But, if the "last day" has to do with the end of the Old Covenant then where are the resurrected saints and/or has the resurrection passed us by?
I do believe that Jesus Christ will return bodily ONCE and not privately and then we will be caught up to meet Him in the air as the Scripture plainly declares. I don't believe we need to necessarily be "raptured" to heaven to be protected from God's wrath which "shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" because "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" whether on earth or in heaven or any other place.
HankD
In the context perhaps of the Book of Hebrews but in other places in the Scripture either directly or by allusion the resurrection is equated with the very end.
Since you agree that Hebrews speaks of the Last Days as past, how about the book of Acts:
Acts 2:
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose; seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
Peter quoting Joel about what would happen in the Last Days. This was fulfilled at Pentecost.
Since you agree that Hebrews speaks of the Last Days as past, how about the book of Acts:
Acts 2:
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose; seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
Peter quoting Joel about what would happen in the Last Days. This was fulfilled at Pentecost.
Peter quoting himself about something which hadn't been fulfilled then or even yet now.
2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
I'm confused on what you believe, was this fulfilled?
Joel 2:
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.
30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.
Peter quoting himself about something which hadn't been fulfilled then or even yet now.
Your half right. It was fulfilled a few years afterward.
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
What are the elements? Let scripture interpret scripture:
Gal.4
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Elements of the Old Covenant.
Now the heaven and earth:
Is. 51:
16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and have covered thee in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people
Isaiah 24
4 The earth dries up and withers,
the world languishes and withers,
the exalted of the earth languish.
5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.
The heavens and earth spoken of are Old Israel.
If it is the heaven and earth you speak of, then what do you do with this verse?
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
So, has heaven and earth passed or are we still under the Law?
The Old Heaven and Earth were passing away,and the New Heaven and Earth were about to begin.
Hebrews 8
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Joel 2:
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.
30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.
Peter quoting himself about something which hadn't been fulfilled then or even yet now.
Your half right. It was fulfilled a few years afterward.
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
What are the elements? Let scripture interpret scripture:
Gal.4
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Elements of the Old Covenant.
Now the heaven and earth:
Is. 51:
16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and have covered thee in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people
Isaiah 24
4 The earth dries up and withers,
the world languishes and withers,
the exalted of the earth languish.
5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.
The heavens and earth spoken of are Old Israel.
If it is the heaven and earth you speak of, then what do you do with this verse?
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
So, has heaven and earth passed or are we still under the Law?
The Old Heaven and Earth were passing away,and the New Heaven and Earth were about to begin.
Hebrews 8
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
My opinion is that you have "proven" this by taking several pieces of fragmented Scripture from the OT and quilted them together to re-interpret Peter's words.
Personally I would rather take the plain and simple meaning that Peter has given it in the context of his epistle:
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
IMO, there is not a hint in this epistle that Israel of old is being spoken of but a global cataclysm. Peter reinforces this proposition by using another global cataclysm as his model:Noah's flood.
I believe you are reading into the Scripture what is not there.
As to the Law , no it has not passed away. Jesus said not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until all be fulfilled. Although the Law has not passed away, I am not under the Law but in Christ.
The Law will stand to be used of the Holy Spirit and those human instruments whom He chooses to reprove/convict men of sin to bring them to Christ.
When all is fulfilled and the last enemy (death) has been defeated in the resurrection, the Law will also pass away as it has no more sinner to speak to.
HankD
[ July 05, 2003, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
Personally I would rather take the plain and simple meaning
What is the simple meaning of this verse?
Luke 21:
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
However you said:
When all is fulfilled and the last enemy (death) has been defeated in the resurrection, the Law will also pass away as it has no more sinner to speak to.
Has Jesus not fulfilled the Law? Is death not defeated?
Now, will the universe be destoyed?
Gen. 8:21, after the great flood God looked down the flow of time and into man's heart and said "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done."
God would never again curse the ground nor destroy every living creature. Could God reverse His promise? He cannot lie. We must keep in mind that the Bible itself is in harmony as the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures. God is not a God of confusion.
Heaven and Earth? Duet. 32:
1 Give ear, ye heavens, and I will speak; And let the earth hear the words of my mouth.
Moses speaking to Israel.
2Peter 3:
In verse 13, "But according to His promise (see Rom. 4:13, 16; Eph. 3:6; Heb 4:1; 9:15; 10:36-39; 12:25-29 and many more about the promise of God) we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." First we will look at what "heavens and earth" means. It means that when God made His covenant with Israel at Mt. Sinai, He planted the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth. See in Deut. 32:1; Isaiah. 1:1-4; 24:1-5; 51:15, 16. So, it is clearly not a literal heavens and earth. It is the covenant of God. Did you know that the great reformer John Owen embraced the Preterist interpretation in 2 Peter 3? (Works, 16 vols. in 9:134-38).
Peter tells us they expected the "new" heavens and earth. We ought to check out the word "new" that he used. There are two words translated as "new" in the NT. They are "neos" and "kainos." Interesting, neos is new in time, never been before, or that which has recently come into existence. Other one is kainos which means new in quality, not time. So, Peter uses kainos in this verse. Now, if someone takes the position that the new heavens and earth is a literal way, it is inconsistent with the word of kainos. If God destroys this earth and creates another, that would be a new (neos) earth not a new (kainos). We have seen in the NT that it says we have a new (kainos) covenant (Heb. 8), a new (kainos) creation (2 Corinthians. 5:17) and the church is a new (kainos) Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2 c.f. Heb. 12:22).
Lastly, "the new heavens and a new earth" must have come into Peter's mind from the book of Isaiah, chapters 65 and 66. Notice before God creates the new heavens and a new earth, He will pour out His wrath against Jerusalem, His rebellious people (Isaiah. 65:1-7, 11-17; 66:3-6, 15-18, 24). This involves the making of a new Israel or the Church (Isaiah. 65:8-10, 15; 66:7-14). When God created the new heavens and earth, notice that physical death will remain (Isaiah. 65:20, 66:24), spiritual home construction and agriculture will continue (Isaiah. 65:21-22 = 1 Corinthians. 3:6-8; 9:7-11), it will have descendants (Isaiah. 65:23, 66:22), the Lord will hear their prayers (Isaiah. 65:24), it will have evangelism (Isaiah. 66:19), it will have new priests (66:21), as well as weekly and monthly worship (in other word, everyday Isaiah. 66:23); and there will be an everlasting hell where the worm shall not die, and the fire shall not quenched to those who have transgressed against the Lord (Isaiah. 66:24). The new heavens and earth is referring to the eternal state while we live in the physical realm in earthly bodies; it must be referring to a period in human history. This is the period of the Kingdom of God which Christ rules in the hearts of the believers. The Kingdom of God is made without hands (spiritual - Dan. 2:34, 44-45; c.f. Col. 2:10-11). If we take the statements from the scriptures at face value, then we should conclude that the first heavens and the first earth passed away and was replaced by the glorious reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, the kingdom without end.
The fact is that anytime Scripture uses the phase "last days" (and similar expression) it means, not the end of the world or physical universe, but the period from 30-70 AD. This was the period during which the Apostles were preaching and writing, the "last days" of Old Covenant Israel before it was forever destroyed in the destruction of the Temple (and consequently the annihilation of the Old Covenant sacrificial system). Read Acts 2:16-21; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; Heb. 1:1-2; 8:13; 9:26; James 5:7-9; 1 Peter 1:20; 4:7; 2 Peter 3:3-4; 1 John 2:18; Jude 17-19; Rev. 1:1-3; 22:6-10, 12, 20. The Old Covenant Israel is done. All the prophecies are fulfilled. The Bible is completed. The scheme of redemption has been accomplished. The tree of life has been restored (Jesus Christ gave us everlasting life) which Adam lost.
The last portion is from an article by Donald Hochner.
[ July 06, 2003, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Grasshopper ]
What is the simple meaning of this verse?
Luke 21:
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
However you said:
When all is fulfilled and the last enemy (death) has been defeated in the resurrection, the Law will also pass away as it has no more sinner to speak to.
Has Jesus not fulfilled the Law? Is death not defeated?
Now, will the universe be destoyed?
Gen. 8:21, after the great flood God looked down the flow of time and into man's heart and said "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done."
God would never again curse the ground nor destroy every living creature. Could God reverse His promise? He cannot lie. We must keep in mind that the Bible itself is in harmony as the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures. God is not a God of confusion.
Heaven and Earth? Duet. 32:
1 Give ear, ye heavens, and I will speak; And let the earth hear the words of my mouth.
Moses speaking to Israel.
2Peter 3:
In verse 13, "But according to His promise (see Rom. 4:13, 16; Eph. 3:6; Heb 4:1; 9:15; 10:36-39; 12:25-29 and many more about the promise of God) we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." First we will look at what "heavens and earth" means. It means that when God made His covenant with Israel at Mt. Sinai, He planted the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth. See in Deut. 32:1; Isaiah. 1:1-4; 24:1-5; 51:15, 16. So, it is clearly not a literal heavens and earth. It is the covenant of God. Did you know that the great reformer John Owen embraced the Preterist interpretation in 2 Peter 3? (Works, 16 vols. in 9:134-38).
Peter tells us they expected the "new" heavens and earth. We ought to check out the word "new" that he used. There are two words translated as "new" in the NT. They are "neos" and "kainos." Interesting, neos is new in time, never been before, or that which has recently come into existence. Other one is kainos which means new in quality, not time. So, Peter uses kainos in this verse. Now, if someone takes the position that the new heavens and earth is a literal way, it is inconsistent with the word of kainos. If God destroys this earth and creates another, that would be a new (neos) earth not a new (kainos). We have seen in the NT that it says we have a new (kainos) covenant (Heb. 8), a new (kainos) creation (2 Corinthians. 5:17) and the church is a new (kainos) Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2 c.f. Heb. 12:22).
Lastly, "the new heavens and a new earth" must have come into Peter's mind from the book of Isaiah, chapters 65 and 66. Notice before God creates the new heavens and a new earth, He will pour out His wrath against Jerusalem, His rebellious people (Isaiah. 65:1-7, 11-17; 66:3-6, 15-18, 24). This involves the making of a new Israel or the Church (Isaiah. 65:8-10, 15; 66:7-14). When God created the new heavens and earth, notice that physical death will remain (Isaiah. 65:20, 66:24), spiritual home construction and agriculture will continue (Isaiah. 65:21-22 = 1 Corinthians. 3:6-8; 9:7-11), it will have descendants (Isaiah. 65:23, 66:22), the Lord will hear their prayers (Isaiah. 65:24), it will have evangelism (Isaiah. 66:19), it will have new priests (66:21), as well as weekly and monthly worship (in other word, everyday Isaiah. 66:23); and there will be an everlasting hell where the worm shall not die, and the fire shall not quenched to those who have transgressed against the Lord (Isaiah. 66:24). The new heavens and earth is referring to the eternal state while we live in the physical realm in earthly bodies; it must be referring to a period in human history. This is the period of the Kingdom of God which Christ rules in the hearts of the believers. The Kingdom of God is made without hands (spiritual - Dan. 2:34, 44-45; c.f. Col. 2:10-11). If we take the statements from the scriptures at face value, then we should conclude that the first heavens and the first earth passed away and was replaced by the glorious reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, the kingdom without end.
The fact is that anytime Scripture uses the phase "last days" (and similar expression) it means, not the end of the world or physical universe, but the period from 30-70 AD. This was the period during which the Apostles were preaching and writing, the "last days" of Old Covenant Israel before it was forever destroyed in the destruction of the Temple (and consequently the annihilation of the Old Covenant sacrificial system). Read Acts 2:16-21; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 3:1-9; Heb. 1:1-2; 8:13; 9:26; James 5:7-9; 1 Peter 1:20; 4:7; 2 Peter 3:3-4; 1 John 2:18; Jude 17-19; Rev. 1:1-3; 22:6-10, 12, 20. The Old Covenant Israel is done. All the prophecies are fulfilled. The Bible is completed. The scheme of redemption has been accomplished. The tree of life has been restored (Jesus Christ gave us everlasting life) which Adam lost.
The last portion is from an article by Donald Hochner.
[ July 06, 2003, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Grasshopper ]
Genesis 9:
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth...
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
First:The promise is to not destroy the earth by waters of a flood. Fire is not "waters of a flood".
Second: The conflagration of 2 Peter is more of a renovation/purging than a destruction.
Third: Those who are in Christ will pass though unharmed as we look for a NEW heaven and a NEW earth. This is why Peter's passage is related to the first creation. We look for a NEW creation with a NEW resurrected body.
Romans 8
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Where then is my resurrected body?
HankD
[ July 06, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]
HankD I think we are going around in circles.
It is hard for a Preterist and a futurist to discuss these things. If you were a-mill it would be easier, at least we would have the same starting point. The Olivet Discourse is the key to all Eschatology discussions. You see it as future, I see it as past. But here goes:
The Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom not physical.
Luke:
20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[1] you."
Yet why do we always try to apply physical things to it?
1 Corinthians 15
21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
Death came through Adam. What kind of death? Physical?
Genesis 2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam did not die physically that day, but did die spiritually. Therefore if Christ is to restore what we lost in Adam, won't it also be spiritual?
the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
Why do we want a physical resurrection?
1Cor.15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
So when will/did it happen?
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
We agree I assume it happens at the Last Trumpet. So when was the Last Trumpet?
Here are a couple of articles dealing with the when:
Matthew 24:29-31
Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem in classic Jewish apocalyptic language. In vss 30-31 he said "they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Jesus is speaking of judgment, the trump of God and the gathering of God's elect from the four corners of the world. Would any Jew even half way conversant with the Old Covenant fail to think of Isaiah's prediction of the sounding of the great trumpet when he heard Jesus' words? We think not.
When did Jesus say that great trumpet was to blow and gather the elect? Read verse 34 "Truly I say to your this generation will not pass away until all things take place."
(As a correlative study, consult a concordance on the "shout" of God.)
I Corinthians 15:51-52
Paul spoke of the resurrection "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible..." vs. 52.
Paul says "the trumpet." He was obviously alluding to some known teaching about "the trumpet." Were he introducing a new concept about the sounding of a trumpet would he not have to delineate between the teaching already known and the new teaching he was introducing? Reader, what was the previous teaching about the sounding of "the trumpet" for the gathering of the dead? It is Matthew 24 and Isaiah 27:13! Now if it be admitted the trumpet of Matthew 24 cannot refer to the end of time and creation, and yet it is insisted I Corinthians 15:52 does refer to such, it must be clearly shown why the trumpet of Corinthians is not the same as that in Matthew when Paul simply refers to "the trumpet" and the only sounding of the trumpet mentioned in the New Testament before Corinthians is Matthew 24. One must explain why Matthew is apocalyptic and spiritual yet Corinthians is literal/audible; even though I Corinthians is patently drawing upon earlier teaching about "the trumpet."
The apostle also said it was "the last trumpet." There would be no more trumpets sounded. One is almost forced to think of Revelation and the sounding of the 7 trumpets. More on that momentarily.
Observe that Paul emphatically tells us the resurrection at the sounding of the last trumpet would be the fulfillment of the prediction found in Isaiah 25:8; the very context of the sounding of the great trumpet of God for the gathering of the elect from their "graves" separated from God. Paul says the resurrection of which he speaks was when the strength of sin, i.e. "the law;" the law he called the ministration of death and a covering over the people, [cf Is. 25:7], II Cor. 3; the law that condemned and cursed, Gal. 3:10-13; the law of bondage, Gal. 4:22ff, was destroyed.
When did Paul say the last trumpet was to sound? In verse 51 he says "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." This is nothing less than a positive assertion that "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled."
In I Corinthians 15 we find then the idea of Christ's coming, judgment, the sounding of the trumpet and the gathering of the elect, i.e. the resurrection; and his assertion it would be in that generation.
I Thessalonians 4:15-17
In this text Paul teaches of Christ's coming, the resurrection and the sounding of the trumpet: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet; and the dead in Christ shall rise first" vs. 16.
Once again Paul is speaking of "the trumpet." It was well known to the church because it had been taught before. We ask again, where would the Thessalonicans have heard or known of "the trumpet?" From Isaiah 27 and Matthew 24:31.
And when did Paul affirm the trumpet would sound? Hear him "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord:" vs. 15; "we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him in the clouds..." vs. 17. Twice Paul avers the sounding of the trumpet at the resurrection and parousia before that generation passed!
Once again we see a pattern of consistency: the subject is the coming of the Lord, judgment, the sounding of the trumpet, the gathering of the elect, and a time statement of imminence.
Revelation 8-11
John saw seven angels having seven trumpets. Beginning with chapter 8 those angels sounded their trumpets. In chapter 10 John was told "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." The seventh trumpet, the last trumpet, was the time for the final fulfilling of the Old Covenant prophetic word.
What was to happen when the last trumpet sounded? In chapter 11:15ff we are told "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints..." vs. 18. The sounding of the last trumpet was the time for the resurrection of the dead, for judgment.
When was all this to happen? Repeatedly John was told his vision "must shortly come to pass" 1:1-3; and "the time is at hand," cf. chapter 22:6,10,12,20. In chapter 6 the martyrs who had suffered for their faith were assured they would only have to wait "for a little while" before being vindicated, 6:9ff.
An Objection
Many insist the passages above simply cannot speak of the same time and event. One argument offered is that in I Corinthians and I Thessalonians 4 the time statements are simply "accommodative language" or Paul was using the "editorial we" when he said "we shall not all sleep." This is an attempt to obviate the chronological significance of these statements. But it will not work.
First, ask yourself: had Paul wanted to indicate some of the Corinthians would live until the resurrection would not the present wording of I Corinthians 15:51 sufficiently indicate it? Indeed.
Second, it is the burden of those who insist the language is editorial and not temporal to prove their point. You cannot glibly wave a hand and dismiss language without strong reason.
Third, consider the traditional interpretation. It says "we shall not all sleep" means "not all Christians will die" before the resurrection; or "there will be Christians still living" when the resurrection occurs. Now, really, does this make sense? Was it Paul's purpose to assert the endurance of the church? When one compares this language with Jesus' promise that some living then would not die until they had seen him coming with the angels to judge every man it is apparent I Corinthians 15: 52 is not editorial or accommodative language; it is very personal and temporally significant.
The same may be said of Thessalonians 4:15,17. Paul says "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord." He did not say "those who are alive" as if to posit the coming in the distant future removed from himself. He did not positively assert the survival of specific individuals to the parousia; but he definitely asserts his generation as doing so! Again, he did not say "those who are alive when Christ comes" he said "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord." Who is Paul's "we?"
It is interesting to wonder where the normal argument made by amillennialists about pronouns and words of proximity goes when this passage is considered. In Matthew 24 it is vehemently argued one must observe Jesus' use of the personal pronouns; when he uses "you" he is referring to the disciples and their generation. When he uses "they" or "them" he is referring to the far distant future. In John 14-16 it is argued by non-charismatics that you absolutely must observe the usage of "you" as applying to the apostles receiving the Holy Spirit; and not just everyone. When in I Corinthians 2 Paul says "we have received... the Spirit which is from God" it is insisted this is speaking of a select group, certainly contemporary. But strangely, when Paul says "We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord" it is insisted he suddenly abandoned his contemporary usage and went abstract. We are convinced "a priori" convictions about the nature of the resurrection and eschatology as a whole have forced a denial of otherwise plain language.
Paul says "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord." Question: from what point do we consider the "remaining?" Paul said "we who remain until the coming." The word "remain" must be given its proper consideration from Paul's perspective.
A word here about the usage of the "royal we," or "editorial we." Those who appeal to this do not properly understand the term. The "royal we" was used by monarchs "to refer to themselves in the plural, at least in public" The "editorial we" is "used indefinitely in general statements in which the speaker or writer includes those whom he addresses, his contemporaries, his fellow — fellow-countrymen, or the like." (All emphasis mine.) The point is, the usage of an "editorial we" does not exclude, rather it INCLUDES the contemporaries of the speaker. To avoid the chronological significance of the passages above by an appeal to Paul's supposed use of the "editorial we" or "accommodative language" is therefore a futile attempt.
Incredibly, some are now denying an imminence factor in Revelation. Instead, they insist what Jesus meant by his promise "Behold, I come quickly!" was "When he comes he will not come in slow motion." Such arguments are ludicrous.
Was Jesus promising to come in relief of the oppressed, suffering so terribly at the hands of the persecutors, and saying "Now, I may not come to help you for several thousand years. But boy, when I finally come I will not come in slow motion?" Were the saints to be comforted by how soon Jesus was coming in judgment, or how fast he was going to travel? We think the answer is obvious to any thinking person.
http://www.eschatology.org/articles/secondcoming/trumpet.htm
Harvest is at the End of the Age
by Don K. Preston
We are constantly told that the resurrection, the time of the harvest at the end of the age, is still future. Yet, Jesus was the first-fruits of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:23). When would harvest, the resurrection, occur? It seems not to have occurred to most people that if Jesus was the first-fruit, that the time of the harvest, i.e. the time of the resurrection, was definitely at hand in the first century. Yet, most insist it is still future and entails the raising of physical bodies from the ground.
The Bible tells us when the resurrection was to be, and it is not in our future! Jesus' "first-fruit" resurrection occurred in "the end of the age" (Hebrews 9:26). Clearly, this was not at the end of the Christian Age. Jesus appeared in the end of the Mosaic Age. Can the first-fruit be at the end of one age, but the harvest at the end of a different age thousands of years later? The first-fruit and the harvest are never in different seasons. The suggestion is disjunctive to say the very least. The word "first-fruits" demands that harvest is near.
In Matthew 13:38-40 Jesus said, "harvest is the end of this age." Jesus was living in the Mosaic Age when he said this. He said the harvest would be at the end of the age in which he was living — not at the end of "the age to come." Since Jesus was the first-fruits of the resurrection, at the end of the Mosaic Age, and since he predicted the harvest would be at the end of that age, the harvest was to be at the end of the Mosaic Age — not at "the end of time."
This is confirmed in Revelation 14 where the 144,000 were the "first-fruits" of the harvest, unto God. An angel proclaimed: "the hour of his–judgment has come" (v. 6-8). This was the judgment on the Great City Babylon at the coming of the Son of Man — the time of harvest. The harvest would be when Babylon was judged. Babylon is identified as the Great City, "where the Lord was crucified" (Revelation 11:8). It was the city that had slain the Old Covenant prophets (18:24). This can be no other than Old Covenant Jerusalem (Luke 13:33). And her judgment, at the time of resurrection (Revelation 11:15f), was "at hand."
Jesus and John agree. Jesus said the harvest would be at the end of the age in which he was living. The end of that age was at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 (Matthew 24:3, 29-34). John said the harvest/resurrection would be when Babylon — the city that crucified the Lord — was judged. That was in A.D. 70.
Jesus and John were either right or wrong. If they predicted the raising of physical corpses out of the ground at the end of the Mosaic Age, then they were wrong.
Jesus' prediction as to the time was correct. It is the concept of physical resurrection that needs to be realigned in harmony with inspiration's time statements.
http://www.eschatology.org/articles/resurrection/resurrection1.htm
Like I said, this is a debate for Full vs. Partial Preterist. If your Eschatology view point is correct then your view of the resurrection is also. If mine is then you and A-mill are incorrect.
It is hard for a Preterist and a futurist to discuss these things. If you were a-mill it would be easier, at least we would have the same starting point. The Olivet Discourse is the key to all Eschatology discussions. You see it as future, I see it as past. But here goes:
The Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom not physical.
Luke:
20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[1] you."
Yet why do we always try to apply physical things to it?
1 Corinthians 15
21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
Death came through Adam. What kind of death? Physical?
Genesis 2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam did not die physically that day, but did die spiritually. Therefore if Christ is to restore what we lost in Adam, won't it also be spiritual?
the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
Why do we want a physical resurrection?
1Cor.15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
So when will/did it happen?
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
We agree I assume it happens at the Last Trumpet. So when was the Last Trumpet?
Here are a couple of articles dealing with the when:
Matthew 24:29-31
Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem in classic Jewish apocalyptic language. In vss 30-31 he said "they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Jesus is speaking of judgment, the trump of God and the gathering of God's elect from the four corners of the world. Would any Jew even half way conversant with the Old Covenant fail to think of Isaiah's prediction of the sounding of the great trumpet when he heard Jesus' words? We think not.
When did Jesus say that great trumpet was to blow and gather the elect? Read verse 34 "Truly I say to your this generation will not pass away until all things take place."
(As a correlative study, consult a concordance on the "shout" of God.)
I Corinthians 15:51-52
Paul spoke of the resurrection "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible..." vs. 52.
Paul says "the trumpet." He was obviously alluding to some known teaching about "the trumpet." Were he introducing a new concept about the sounding of a trumpet would he not have to delineate between the teaching already known and the new teaching he was introducing? Reader, what was the previous teaching about the sounding of "the trumpet" for the gathering of the dead? It is Matthew 24 and Isaiah 27:13! Now if it be admitted the trumpet of Matthew 24 cannot refer to the end of time and creation, and yet it is insisted I Corinthians 15:52 does refer to such, it must be clearly shown why the trumpet of Corinthians is not the same as that in Matthew when Paul simply refers to "the trumpet" and the only sounding of the trumpet mentioned in the New Testament before Corinthians is Matthew 24. One must explain why Matthew is apocalyptic and spiritual yet Corinthians is literal/audible; even though I Corinthians is patently drawing upon earlier teaching about "the trumpet."
The apostle also said it was "the last trumpet." There would be no more trumpets sounded. One is almost forced to think of Revelation and the sounding of the 7 trumpets. More on that momentarily.
Observe that Paul emphatically tells us the resurrection at the sounding of the last trumpet would be the fulfillment of the prediction found in Isaiah 25:8; the very context of the sounding of the great trumpet of God for the gathering of the elect from their "graves" separated from God. Paul says the resurrection of which he speaks was when the strength of sin, i.e. "the law;" the law he called the ministration of death and a covering over the people, [cf Is. 25:7], II Cor. 3; the law that condemned and cursed, Gal. 3:10-13; the law of bondage, Gal. 4:22ff, was destroyed.
When did Paul say the last trumpet was to sound? In verse 51 he says "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." This is nothing less than a positive assertion that "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled."
In I Corinthians 15 we find then the idea of Christ's coming, judgment, the sounding of the trumpet and the gathering of the elect, i.e. the resurrection; and his assertion it would be in that generation.
I Thessalonians 4:15-17
In this text Paul teaches of Christ's coming, the resurrection and the sounding of the trumpet: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet; and the dead in Christ shall rise first" vs. 16.
Once again Paul is speaking of "the trumpet." It was well known to the church because it had been taught before. We ask again, where would the Thessalonicans have heard or known of "the trumpet?" From Isaiah 27 and Matthew 24:31.
And when did Paul affirm the trumpet would sound? Hear him "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord:" vs. 15; "we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him in the clouds..." vs. 17. Twice Paul avers the sounding of the trumpet at the resurrection and parousia before that generation passed!
Once again we see a pattern of consistency: the subject is the coming of the Lord, judgment, the sounding of the trumpet, the gathering of the elect, and a time statement of imminence.
Revelation 8-11
John saw seven angels having seven trumpets. Beginning with chapter 8 those angels sounded their trumpets. In chapter 10 John was told "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." The seventh trumpet, the last trumpet, was the time for the final fulfilling of the Old Covenant prophetic word.
What was to happen when the last trumpet sounded? In chapter 11:15ff we are told "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints..." vs. 18. The sounding of the last trumpet was the time for the resurrection of the dead, for judgment.
When was all this to happen? Repeatedly John was told his vision "must shortly come to pass" 1:1-3; and "the time is at hand," cf. chapter 22:6,10,12,20. In chapter 6 the martyrs who had suffered for their faith were assured they would only have to wait "for a little while" before being vindicated, 6:9ff.
An Objection
Many insist the passages above simply cannot speak of the same time and event. One argument offered is that in I Corinthians and I Thessalonians 4 the time statements are simply "accommodative language" or Paul was using the "editorial we" when he said "we shall not all sleep." This is an attempt to obviate the chronological significance of these statements. But it will not work.
First, ask yourself: had Paul wanted to indicate some of the Corinthians would live until the resurrection would not the present wording of I Corinthians 15:51 sufficiently indicate it? Indeed.
Second, it is the burden of those who insist the language is editorial and not temporal to prove their point. You cannot glibly wave a hand and dismiss language without strong reason.
Third, consider the traditional interpretation. It says "we shall not all sleep" means "not all Christians will die" before the resurrection; or "there will be Christians still living" when the resurrection occurs. Now, really, does this make sense? Was it Paul's purpose to assert the endurance of the church? When one compares this language with Jesus' promise that some living then would not die until they had seen him coming with the angels to judge every man it is apparent I Corinthians 15: 52 is not editorial or accommodative language; it is very personal and temporally significant.
The same may be said of Thessalonians 4:15,17. Paul says "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord." He did not say "those who are alive" as if to posit the coming in the distant future removed from himself. He did not positively assert the survival of specific individuals to the parousia; but he definitely asserts his generation as doing so! Again, he did not say "those who are alive when Christ comes" he said "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord." Who is Paul's "we?"
It is interesting to wonder where the normal argument made by amillennialists about pronouns and words of proximity goes when this passage is considered. In Matthew 24 it is vehemently argued one must observe Jesus' use of the personal pronouns; when he uses "you" he is referring to the disciples and their generation. When he uses "they" or "them" he is referring to the far distant future. In John 14-16 it is argued by non-charismatics that you absolutely must observe the usage of "you" as applying to the apostles receiving the Holy Spirit; and not just everyone. When in I Corinthians 2 Paul says "we have received... the Spirit which is from God" it is insisted this is speaking of a select group, certainly contemporary. But strangely, when Paul says "We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord" it is insisted he suddenly abandoned his contemporary usage and went abstract. We are convinced "a priori" convictions about the nature of the resurrection and eschatology as a whole have forced a denial of otherwise plain language.
Paul says "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord." Question: from what point do we consider the "remaining?" Paul said "we who remain until the coming." The word "remain" must be given its proper consideration from Paul's perspective.
A word here about the usage of the "royal we," or "editorial we." Those who appeal to this do not properly understand the term. The "royal we" was used by monarchs "to refer to themselves in the plural, at least in public" The "editorial we" is "used indefinitely in general statements in which the speaker or writer includes those whom he addresses, his contemporaries, his fellow — fellow-countrymen, or the like." (All emphasis mine.) The point is, the usage of an "editorial we" does not exclude, rather it INCLUDES the contemporaries of the speaker. To avoid the chronological significance of the passages above by an appeal to Paul's supposed use of the "editorial we" or "accommodative language" is therefore a futile attempt.
Incredibly, some are now denying an imminence factor in Revelation. Instead, they insist what Jesus meant by his promise "Behold, I come quickly!" was "When he comes he will not come in slow motion." Such arguments are ludicrous.
Was Jesus promising to come in relief of the oppressed, suffering so terribly at the hands of the persecutors, and saying "Now, I may not come to help you for several thousand years. But boy, when I finally come I will not come in slow motion?" Were the saints to be comforted by how soon Jesus was coming in judgment, or how fast he was going to travel? We think the answer is obvious to any thinking person.
http://www.eschatology.org/articles/secondcoming/trumpet.htm
Harvest is at the End of the Age
by Don K. Preston
We are constantly told that the resurrection, the time of the harvest at the end of the age, is still future. Yet, Jesus was the first-fruits of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:23). When would harvest, the resurrection, occur? It seems not to have occurred to most people that if Jesus was the first-fruit, that the time of the harvest, i.e. the time of the resurrection, was definitely at hand in the first century. Yet, most insist it is still future and entails the raising of physical bodies from the ground.
The Bible tells us when the resurrection was to be, and it is not in our future! Jesus' "first-fruit" resurrection occurred in "the end of the age" (Hebrews 9:26). Clearly, this was not at the end of the Christian Age. Jesus appeared in the end of the Mosaic Age. Can the first-fruit be at the end of one age, but the harvest at the end of a different age thousands of years later? The first-fruit and the harvest are never in different seasons. The suggestion is disjunctive to say the very least. The word "first-fruits" demands that harvest is near.
In Matthew 13:38-40 Jesus said, "harvest is the end of this age." Jesus was living in the Mosaic Age when he said this. He said the harvest would be at the end of the age in which he was living — not at the end of "the age to come." Since Jesus was the first-fruits of the resurrection, at the end of the Mosaic Age, and since he predicted the harvest would be at the end of that age, the harvest was to be at the end of the Mosaic Age — not at "the end of time."
This is confirmed in Revelation 14 where the 144,000 were the "first-fruits" of the harvest, unto God. An angel proclaimed: "the hour of his–judgment has come" (v. 6-8). This was the judgment on the Great City Babylon at the coming of the Son of Man — the time of harvest. The harvest would be when Babylon was judged. Babylon is identified as the Great City, "where the Lord was crucified" (Revelation 11:8). It was the city that had slain the Old Covenant prophets (18:24). This can be no other than Old Covenant Jerusalem (Luke 13:33). And her judgment, at the time of resurrection (Revelation 11:15f), was "at hand."
Jesus and John agree. Jesus said the harvest would be at the end of the age in which he was living. The end of that age was at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 (Matthew 24:3, 29-34). John said the harvest/resurrection would be when Babylon — the city that crucified the Lord — was judged. That was in A.D. 70.
Jesus and John were either right or wrong. If they predicted the raising of physical corpses out of the ground at the end of the Mosaic Age, then they were wrong.
Jesus' prediction as to the time was correct. It is the concept of physical resurrection that needs to be realigned in harmony with inspiration's time statements.
http://www.eschatology.org/articles/resurrection/resurrection1.htm
Like I said, this is a debate for Full vs. Partial Preterist. If your Eschatology view point is correct then your view of the resurrection is also. If mine is then you and A-mill are incorrect.
I'm posting this article to be my reply about the study of the rapture . Is this really biblical? Just rerad and study this article and search the Scripture...
The Rapture of the Church
Prof. Fernando D. Saraví, DiplTh, MD, PhD
Iglesia de los Libres (Iglesia Cristiana Evangélica )
Perú 1472, Las Heras 5539 Mendoza, Argentina
e-mail fsaravi@fmed2.uncu.edu.ar
"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope ... For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thess 4:13,16-17).
Some Christians believe that the text reproduced above teaches that the Church of Christ will not go through the final outburst of evil, led by the Antichrist, that is to happen just before the coming of the Lord in judgment (2 Thess 2:1-12). They tell us that believers will be snatched up about seven years before Christ comes visibly to the unbelieving world. The Second coming, they further teach, will occur in two stages : A first stage (sometimes called a "secret" one) to rescue His saints, i.e. the Church, and a public second stage when He will come with His saints -those previously raptured-, this time to judge the world. Is this teaching Biblically sound?
1. The Rapture will be no secret
Christians at Thessalonica were eagerly waiting for the Second Coming, but they feared that believers already dead at the time of this event would not have a share in the future glory. Paul carefully explained them that deceased Christians would not only have a share, but that they indeed would go before those believers still alive at that time to meet the Lord in the air, an event that would be announced by " One word of command, one shout from the archangel, one blast from the trumpet of God and the Lord himself will come down from heaven! (Phillips’ translation). The authoritative divine command (Greek keleusma), is transmitted by the shout of a powerful angel, and echoed by God’s trumpet . This seems to be a very noisy event!
Of course, trumpets were used to usher public events (see Lev 25:9; Num 10:8; Jer 4:5; Matt 6:2) and later they came to be used as a symbol of the announcement of judgment and of the end of the Age (see Isa 27:13; Zeph 1:14-18; Rev 8:2,6-13; 11:15). Indeed, trumpet calls were used to make sure that everybody would pay attention! Our Lord Jesus himself taught that the trumpet would announce the Lord’s Day: " And he [Christ] will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds..." (Matt 24:31). Paul taught the same when he wrote "... we will all be changed ... at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Cor 15:51-52).
From the above it is crystal clear first, that the rapture will be a noisy, public event, and second, that it will happen in a one and only Second coming[/B ] , since it occurs at the last trumpet . It should be obvious that there cannot be any trumpet after the last one! (see also Rev 11:15-19).
2. A single Second Coming
The belief in a split Second Coming seeks support in Dan 9:24-27. However, this text announces an already past 490-years period (Seventy "weeks" of years). In the last 7 years –the last "week"- Messiah would come, according to the Scriptures (see Luke 24: 25-27, 44), bringing eternal righteousness and making an atonement for sin. Messiah would confirm the new covenant with the true Israel (see Romans 9: 6f, 27-29) and His death would put an end to the Levitical system of sacrifices (see Hebrews, Ch. 9-10). Those who rejected this covenant would be punished (see John 3:18). All these things came to pass, as they were foretold , in the first century of the Christian era.
It has been rightly said that "Scripture teaches clearly that this [Second] Advent will be personal, visible, sudden and unexpected, glorious and triumphant": Personal , 1 Thess 4:16, " The Lord himself "; visible , Acts 1:11, " This same Jesus ... will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven " ; sudden and unexpected , 1 Thess 5:1-3, " the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night " (see also Matt 24:42-44; 2 Pet 3:10); glorious and triumphant , 2 Thess 1:7-10, " when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels ... on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people ..." (see also Hebr 9:28; Rev 1:7).
The Holy Scriptures witness a single Second Coming and a single physical resurrection for the blessing of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked. This bodily resurrection is depicted in Rev 20:11-15, " And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened ... The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done ." It should be noted that the "first resurrection" mentioned in Rev 20:4-6 is the present blessed life of those that have died witnessing about Christ. To the world they are just losers, but in fact they have truly conquered and reign with God and Christ for a period that is very long (a thousand years) when compared with the time of their suffering. Although all believers have been reborn and qualify as royal priests (Matt 8:22; Luke 15:24; John 5:24-25; 11:25; Rom 6:13; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 2:9,24), martyrs already enjoy God’s full peace while their brethren must still suffer for "a little while".
About the judgment to take place at the Second Coming and its consequences, our beloved Lord said: " then they [the wicked] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life ." (Matt 25:46) ; " Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his [Christ’s ] voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned ." (John 5:28f). And Paul asserted: " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ ..." (2 Cor 5:10); " and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. " (Acts 24:15, see also Acts 17:30-31; Rom 2:5-16). The teachings of Peter, John and James are also consistent with these truths: see 1 Pet 4:5,17; 2 Pet 3:7; Acts 10:42; 1 John 4:17; Rev 20:12; James 5:8-9.
Everyone will see Jesus in His Second Coming: " all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory and ... his angels ... will gather his elect ..." (Matt 24: 30f). From 2 Thess 1: 6-10 it is plain that the hour of mourning of " all the tribes of the earth " is the very same hour of the rapture and joy of believers!
3. The tribulation of the Church
Those who believe that the Church will be spared from the end-time tribulation argue that " God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ ." (1 Thess 5:9; see 1:10, " Jesus ... rescues us from the coming wrath "). But it seems clear that these passages do not refer to a satanically launched persecution against the Church, but to God’s righteous punishment against the wicked ; it goes without saying that by definition, believers will not pass through this.
On the other hand, the sufferings and persecutions that we Christians must endure because of our witness of Christ are in fact tribulations. The Greek word thlipsis , translated "trouble", "suffering" , "tribulation", etc., appears 45 times in the New Testament, and it usually refers to the hardships that believers must endure for Christ’s sake. Some examples follow: " In this world you will have trouble [ thlipsis ]..." (John 16:33); "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22); " we also rejoice in our sufferings " (Rom 5:3; see Rom 8:35-39; 12:12); " Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... who conforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble ..." (2 Cor 1:4); " we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring ." (2 Thess 1:4); " These are they who have come out of the great tribulation " (Rev 7:14). In Revelation, John identifies himself with those persecuted Christians to whom he addresses the book, and styles himself as their " companion in the suffering " (Rev 1:9).
The Church must endure right to the very end of the world as Christ’s witness to all the nations (Matt 28:18-20). Our Lord did not ask His Father to have the Church raptured before the end, but protected from the evil one (John 17:15). Real believers and unbelievers are to remain together up to that great Day of the Lord when their separation will take place: " At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned, then gather the wheat and bring it to my barn ." (Matt 13:30).
To some confused believers who thought that Jesus’ return could happen "at any time", Paul wrote: " Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy ... saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion [ parapipto ] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction ." (2 Thess 2:1-3). Therefore, the manifestation of the end-time Antichrist and the apostasy – parapipto , i.e., defection from the Christian faith by many- are things that true believers will see and suffer before our Lord’s coming in glory and their gathering together with Him.
4. Summary: Our blessed hope
A Rapture that will supposedly deliver the Church from end-time persecution is never styled as "our blessed hope " in the New Testament. Paul taught Titus that our blessed hope is the eternal life (Tit 1:2), and admonished him to live according to this hope " while we wait for the blessed hope –the glorious appearing of our great Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ ." (Tit 2:13).
The New Testament teaches that the Church will be the witness for Jesus Christ until the day when her Lord returns for the blessing of His people and the cursing of His foes. Before that day, the Church will have to endure great tribulations, and particularly, right before the end of the age, the apostasy and the persecution led by Antichrist, the Man of Lawlessness. As during all her history, the true militant Church will fight " the good fight " until the Lord comes. No specific sign will announce the imminent coming of Jesus Christ (Luke 17:26-36). It will be as a thief in the night, since not even believers know on what day the Lord will come (Matt 24: 42-44; 25:13, 1 Thess 5:1-3; 2 Pet 3:9-10). This is why we are repeatedly called to be alert : real Christians do not need to be prompted by signs, since as good Christ’s soldiers they are always ready.
Peter spoke of our Lord’s patience , " not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance " (2 Pet 3:9) . Here is the reason why Jesus is delaying His coming; and if this –everyone’s salvation- is the Lord´s sovereign wish, then it must also be important for us. But, how will unbelievers repent and believe, if there is nobody to preach them the gospel? (Rom 10:13-15) And who on earth will preach if believers, the temple where the Holy Spirit indwells, have been raptured? (1 Cor 3:16-17; 6:19; Eph 2:21). To eagerly expect a safe evacuation before the final battle is tantamount to plainly refuse to do what the Lord has specifically commanded us to do!
Therefore, we must be ready to be His faithful witnesses to all nations right to the end, knowing that on that Day we will receive the crown of life from the very hands of our beloved God and Saviour, Jesus Christ (Tit 2:11-14; Rev 2:10-11). Meanwhile, we cry Amén! Come, Lord Jesus!
July 1985 (last revision September 1998)
Unless otherwise stated, Scripture quotations are from the New International Version.
[end]
The Rapture of the Church
Prof. Fernando D. Saraví, DiplTh, MD, PhD
Iglesia de los Libres (Iglesia Cristiana Evangélica )
Perú 1472, Las Heras 5539 Mendoza, Argentina
e-mail fsaravi@fmed2.uncu.edu.ar
"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope ... For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thess 4:13,16-17).
Some Christians believe that the text reproduced above teaches that the Church of Christ will not go through the final outburst of evil, led by the Antichrist, that is to happen just before the coming of the Lord in judgment (2 Thess 2:1-12). They tell us that believers will be snatched up about seven years before Christ comes visibly to the unbelieving world. The Second coming, they further teach, will occur in two stages : A first stage (sometimes called a "secret" one) to rescue His saints, i.e. the Church, and a public second stage when He will come with His saints -those previously raptured-, this time to judge the world. Is this teaching Biblically sound?
1. The Rapture will be no secret
Christians at Thessalonica were eagerly waiting for the Second Coming, but they feared that believers already dead at the time of this event would not have a share in the future glory. Paul carefully explained them that deceased Christians would not only have a share, but that they indeed would go before those believers still alive at that time to meet the Lord in the air, an event that would be announced by " One word of command, one shout from the archangel, one blast from the trumpet of God and the Lord himself will come down from heaven! (Phillips’ translation). The authoritative divine command (Greek keleusma), is transmitted by the shout of a powerful angel, and echoed by God’s trumpet . This seems to be a very noisy event!
Of course, trumpets were used to usher public events (see Lev 25:9; Num 10:8; Jer 4:5; Matt 6:2) and later they came to be used as a symbol of the announcement of judgment and of the end of the Age (see Isa 27:13; Zeph 1:14-18; Rev 8:2,6-13; 11:15). Indeed, trumpet calls were used to make sure that everybody would pay attention! Our Lord Jesus himself taught that the trumpet would announce the Lord’s Day: " And he [Christ] will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds..." (Matt 24:31). Paul taught the same when he wrote "... we will all be changed ... at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Cor 15:51-52).
From the above it is crystal clear first, that the rapture will be a noisy, public event, and second, that it will happen in a one and only Second coming[/B ] , since it occurs at the last trumpet . It should be obvious that there cannot be any trumpet after the last one! (see also Rev 11:15-19).
2. A single Second Coming
The belief in a split Second Coming seeks support in Dan 9:24-27. However, this text announces an already past 490-years period (Seventy "weeks" of years). In the last 7 years –the last "week"- Messiah would come, according to the Scriptures (see Luke 24: 25-27, 44), bringing eternal righteousness and making an atonement for sin. Messiah would confirm the new covenant with the true Israel (see Romans 9: 6f, 27-29) and His death would put an end to the Levitical system of sacrifices (see Hebrews, Ch. 9-10). Those who rejected this covenant would be punished (see John 3:18). All these things came to pass, as they were foretold , in the first century of the Christian era.
It has been rightly said that "Scripture teaches clearly that this [Second] Advent will be personal, visible, sudden and unexpected, glorious and triumphant": Personal , 1 Thess 4:16, " The Lord himself "; visible , Acts 1:11, " This same Jesus ... will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven " ; sudden and unexpected , 1 Thess 5:1-3, " the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night " (see also Matt 24:42-44; 2 Pet 3:10); glorious and triumphant , 2 Thess 1:7-10, " when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels ... on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people ..." (see also Hebr 9:28; Rev 1:7).
The Holy Scriptures witness a single Second Coming and a single physical resurrection for the blessing of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked. This bodily resurrection is depicted in Rev 20:11-15, " And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened ... The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done ." It should be noted that the "first resurrection" mentioned in Rev 20:4-6 is the present blessed life of those that have died witnessing about Christ. To the world they are just losers, but in fact they have truly conquered and reign with God and Christ for a period that is very long (a thousand years) when compared with the time of their suffering. Although all believers have been reborn and qualify as royal priests (Matt 8:22; Luke 15:24; John 5:24-25; 11:25; Rom 6:13; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 2:9,24), martyrs already enjoy God’s full peace while their brethren must still suffer for "a little while".
About the judgment to take place at the Second Coming and its consequences, our beloved Lord said: " then they [the wicked] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life ." (Matt 25:46) ; " Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his [Christ’s ] voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned ." (John 5:28f). And Paul asserted: " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ ..." (2 Cor 5:10); " and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. " (Acts 24:15, see also Acts 17:30-31; Rom 2:5-16). The teachings of Peter, John and James are also consistent with these truths: see 1 Pet 4:5,17; 2 Pet 3:7; Acts 10:42; 1 John 4:17; Rev 20:12; James 5:8-9.
Everyone will see Jesus in His Second Coming: " all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory and ... his angels ... will gather his elect ..." (Matt 24: 30f). From 2 Thess 1: 6-10 it is plain that the hour of mourning of " all the tribes of the earth " is the very same hour of the rapture and joy of believers!
3. The tribulation of the Church
Those who believe that the Church will be spared from the end-time tribulation argue that " God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ ." (1 Thess 5:9; see 1:10, " Jesus ... rescues us from the coming wrath "). But it seems clear that these passages do not refer to a satanically launched persecution against the Church, but to God’s righteous punishment against the wicked ; it goes without saying that by definition, believers will not pass through this.
On the other hand, the sufferings and persecutions that we Christians must endure because of our witness of Christ are in fact tribulations. The Greek word thlipsis , translated "trouble", "suffering" , "tribulation", etc., appears 45 times in the New Testament, and it usually refers to the hardships that believers must endure for Christ’s sake. Some examples follow: " In this world you will have trouble [ thlipsis ]..." (John 16:33); "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22); " we also rejoice in our sufferings " (Rom 5:3; see Rom 8:35-39; 12:12); " Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... who conforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble ..." (2 Cor 1:4); " we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring ." (2 Thess 1:4); " These are they who have come out of the great tribulation " (Rev 7:14). In Revelation, John identifies himself with those persecuted Christians to whom he addresses the book, and styles himself as their " companion in the suffering " (Rev 1:9).
The Church must endure right to the very end of the world as Christ’s witness to all the nations (Matt 28:18-20). Our Lord did not ask His Father to have the Church raptured before the end, but protected from the evil one (John 17:15). Real believers and unbelievers are to remain together up to that great Day of the Lord when their separation will take place: " At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned, then gather the wheat and bring it to my barn ." (Matt 13:30).
To some confused believers who thought that Jesus’ return could happen "at any time", Paul wrote: " Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy ... saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion [ parapipto ] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction ." (2 Thess 2:1-3). Therefore, the manifestation of the end-time Antichrist and the apostasy – parapipto , i.e., defection from the Christian faith by many- are things that true believers will see and suffer before our Lord’s coming in glory and their gathering together with Him.
4. Summary: Our blessed hope
A Rapture that will supposedly deliver the Church from end-time persecution is never styled as "our blessed hope " in the New Testament. Paul taught Titus that our blessed hope is the eternal life (Tit 1:2), and admonished him to live according to this hope " while we wait for the blessed hope –the glorious appearing of our great Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ ." (Tit 2:13).
The New Testament teaches that the Church will be the witness for Jesus Christ until the day when her Lord returns for the blessing of His people and the cursing of His foes. Before that day, the Church will have to endure great tribulations, and particularly, right before the end of the age, the apostasy and the persecution led by Antichrist, the Man of Lawlessness. As during all her history, the true militant Church will fight " the good fight " until the Lord comes. No specific sign will announce the imminent coming of Jesus Christ (Luke 17:26-36). It will be as a thief in the night, since not even believers know on what day the Lord will come (Matt 24: 42-44; 25:13, 1 Thess 5:1-3; 2 Pet 3:9-10). This is why we are repeatedly called to be alert : real Christians do not need to be prompted by signs, since as good Christ’s soldiers they are always ready.
Peter spoke of our Lord’s patience , " not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance " (2 Pet 3:9) . Here is the reason why Jesus is delaying His coming; and if this –everyone’s salvation- is the Lord´s sovereign wish, then it must also be important for us. But, how will unbelievers repent and believe, if there is nobody to preach them the gospel? (Rom 10:13-15) And who on earth will preach if believers, the temple where the Holy Spirit indwells, have been raptured? (1 Cor 3:16-17; 6:19; Eph 2:21). To eagerly expect a safe evacuation before the final battle is tantamount to plainly refuse to do what the Lord has specifically commanded us to do!
Therefore, we must be ready to be His faithful witnesses to all nations right to the end, knowing that on that Day we will receive the crown of life from the very hands of our beloved God and Saviour, Jesus Christ (Tit 2:11-14; Rev 2:10-11). Meanwhile, we cry Amén! Come, Lord Jesus!
July 1985 (last revision September 1998)
Unless otherwise stated, Scripture quotations are from the New International Version.
[end]
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
Not to argue (but certainly to disagree), I believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture.
Can I point to a single instance when Jesus told us that He would call out the Church before He let hell have free reign? No. Can I show you a single verse that states beyond question that the Tribulation will be proceeded by a "snatching away"? No.
But...when one takes the different passages and reads them side-by-side, the Rapture stands forth loud and clear.
Could anyone change my position? I doubt it. The evidence that is offered in support of other possibilities is shakier than that on which I stand. But my faith is not shaken, my foundation is sure.
I live in the expectation of my Lord and Savior calling out to His own, to meet Him in the air. If He does not call before my brief time on this earth is finished, I will not despair, but close my eyes in expectation of opening them to see my Lord, and knowing that soon, very soon, He will lead out with Him to call home His own.
Can I point to a single instance when Jesus told us that He would call out the Church before He let hell have free reign? No. Can I show you a single verse that states beyond question that the Tribulation will be proceeded by a "snatching away"? No.
But...when one takes the different passages and reads them side-by-side, the Rapture stands forth loud and clear.
Could anyone change my position? I doubt it. The evidence that is offered in support of other possibilities is shakier than that on which I stand. But my faith is not shaken, my foundation is sure.
I live in the expectation of my Lord and Savior calling out to His own, to meet Him in the air. If He does not call before my brief time on this earth is finished, I will not despair, but close my eyes in expectation of opening them to see my Lord, and knowing that soon, very soon, He will lead out with Him to call home His own.
Could anyone change my position? I doubt it. The evidence that is offered in support of other possibilities is shakier than that on which I stand. But my faith is not shaken, my foundation is sure.
You are aware of course that prior to the late 1700's the rapture as taught now was unknown theology.
You are aware of course that prior to the late 1700's the rapture as taught now was unknown theology.
The church has been suffering down through the ages... Come in the Baptist History Forum and learn all about it... RAPTURE!... Just another invention of men to fill their pockets and sheer the sheep!... To each his own!... Brother Glen 
[ July 07, 2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
[ July 07, 2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
OK, after reading all this I am still where I was before I read it. Amazing?
Eschatology is not my strong suit! Every position seems to me to have problems.
My own view (weak as it is) is that Christ will return in His glorified Body once at the end of the “Tribulation” from which the saints will have been protected (here on earth) from the wrath of God.
When He does return we will be caught up with Him in the air and proceed on to the Mount of Olives where He will end the “times of the gentiles” or “the Last Day”. Then the 1000 years begin.
Now, how do I reconcile the 1000 year reign and the fact that mortals will be born during this millenium and those who were righteous will need to be resurrected after they die (necessitating another resurrection)?
I don’t know, I’m still thinking about that one.
As for Preterism, It seems to me with this view that whenever the literal does not quite fit into the scheme, the allegorical is brought forth and one is always trying to force the puzzle pieces into holes they don’t quite fit.
Other schemes which are literalist seem terribly convoluted and so complex that if one little detail fails the whole structure collapses.
Not very intellectual assessments, I realize.
So, my philosophy (and many others as well) is: why not just BE READY doing as He said, then whether day or night or whenever He does return you will be happy to see Him and vice versa.
HankD
Eschatology is not my strong suit! Every position seems to me to have problems.
My own view (weak as it is) is that Christ will return in His glorified Body once at the end of the “Tribulation” from which the saints will have been protected (here on earth) from the wrath of God.
When He does return we will be caught up with Him in the air and proceed on to the Mount of Olives where He will end the “times of the gentiles” or “the Last Day”. Then the 1000 years begin.
Now, how do I reconcile the 1000 year reign and the fact that mortals will be born during this millenium and those who were righteous will need to be resurrected after they die (necessitating another resurrection)?
I don’t know, I’m still thinking about that one.
As for Preterism, It seems to me with this view that whenever the literal does not quite fit into the scheme, the allegorical is brought forth and one is always trying to force the puzzle pieces into holes they don’t quite fit.
Other schemes which are literalist seem terribly convoluted and so complex that if one little detail fails the whole structure collapses.
Not very intellectual assessments, I realize.
So, my philosophy (and many others as well) is: why not just BE READY doing as He said, then whether day or night or whenever He does return you will be happy to see Him and vice versa.
HankD
Bartimaeus
New Member
Didn't take me long did it "trumpet". If you believe something and can encourage it publically you should also be able to defend it personally, right? Be ready........!
Thanks --------Bart
As for Preterism, It seems to me with this view that whenever the literal does not quite fit into the scheme, the allegorical is brought forth and one is always trying to force the puzzle pieces into holes they don’t quite fit.
That is usually the objection. But why would you not spiritualize things concerning the spiritual Kingdom?
Yet why do those who take the hardest things in prophecy literal,yet "spititualize" the most basic?
http://www.strato.net/~dagreen/preterism101.html
We have about run the course on this subject, so I leave you with some great sermons on the Olivet Discourse. If you remain a futurist after listening to these, then there is nothing more I can do to change your mind.
http://www.audiowebman.org/bbc/start/audios1.htm
Let us both continue our studies and meet again on another thread.
That is usually the objection. But why would you not spiritualize things concerning the spiritual Kingdom?
Yet why do those who take the hardest things in prophecy literal,yet "spititualize" the most basic?
http://www.strato.net/~dagreen/preterism101.html
We have about run the course on this subject, so I leave you with some great sermons on the Olivet Discourse. If you remain a futurist after listening to these, then there is nothing more I can do to change your mind.
http://www.audiowebman.org/bbc/start/audios1.htm
Let us both continue our studies and meet again on another thread.