Rapture

[RaptureReady]

rb, one thing from your post,

Those who believe that the Church will be spared from the end-time tribulation argue that " God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ ." (1 Thess 5:9; see 1:10, " Jesus ... rescues us from the coming wrath "). But it seems clear that these passages do not refer to a satanically launched persecution against the Church, but to God’s righteous punishment against the wicked ; it goes without saying that by definition, believers will not pass through this.

I did a little study on the bold text found in the different bibles and this is what I found.

NIV
1 THES 1:10
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
(future tense)

NASV
1 THES 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
(future tense)

NKJV
1 THES 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
(future tense)

KJV
1 THES 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
(past tense)


According to NIV, NASV, and NKJV Jesus is going to rescue us from the wrath to come.

According to KJV, he has already rescued us from the wrath to come. ALL WRATH

So if I were using a modern version, I would probably be inclined to agree with you, BUT, since I believe the King James is correct, I will have to disagree that Christians will go thru the tribulation.

This is just one reason why the modern versions are corrupt.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
So if I were using a modern version, I would probably be inclined to agree with you, BUT, since I believe the King James is correct, I will have to disagree that Christians will go thru the tribulation.

Bible versions have nothing to do with it. They all say "from the wrath to come" in this verse.

And since when does "wrath to come" = "7 years tribulation"? And how does "delivered" = "going to be raptured"?

 

[Trotter]

If there is no Rapture, then we should live without the fear and dread that Christ could come at any moment, catching us unaware and lazing about. We should rip out of our Bibles any reference to His Glorious Appearing, for after the Tribulation there will not be any one left to see the Glory there of. We should rip out any reference that mentions watching for Him, being ready to meet Him.

Without the promise of the Rapture, Christians are left to fend for themselves when God pours out His wrath on mankind (which would now include His adopted children and heirs, for whom Jesus came, bled, and died to PAY FOR THEIR SINS!!!). Christians would have to endure the anguish that God has prepared for THOSE WHO HAVE REJECTED HIS SON. The hope and assurance of salvation through Christ is declared bankrupt, null and void.

Now, these are my personal opinions. We all have them, and you are entitled to be as wrong as the rest of us. But how can an individual read what God has set forth in His Word and declare that there can be no possibility ofa "snatching away" without "spiritualizing" the vast majority of what is written. The Bible was written in plain language (despite all the thees and thous and -eths in the KJV). If it is read as it is written, the facts are there to see.

Read some of what Timothy LaHaye has written on the subject (not the "Left Behind" books- they are fictitous accounts of what the authors think could happen after the Rapture). He makes a lot of sense, and shows a lot of evidence (although the redundant timelines and charts take up a lot of page space).

But, whatever you personally decide, allow the rest of us the freedom to disagree with you. You pray for us, and we will pray for you, and when we get to heaven, God will settle it for us.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Grasshopper]

The Bible was written in plain language (despite all the thees and thous and -eths in the KJV). If it is read as it is written, the facts are there to see.

Good, then the following verses should speak for themselves. No "spiritualizing" they must be taken literally. Correct?

"The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." (Matt. 3:2)

"Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)
"You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes." (Matt. 10:23)

"'When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?' '....He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers, who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.' '....Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.' ....When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matt. 21:40-41,43,45)


"This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Matt. 24:34)


“These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” (Lk. 21:22)


“This is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 'And it shall be in the last days…'” (Acts 2:16-17)


“He has fixed a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness…” (Acts 17:31)


“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” (Rom. 16:20)


“The form of this world is passing away.” (I Cor. 7:31)


“When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.” (Heb. 8:13)

“…as you see the Day drawing near.” (Heb. 10:25)

“…the fury of a fire which is about to consume the adversaries.” (Heb. 10:27)

“You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.” (Jms. 5:8)


“They shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.” (I Peter 4:5)


“The world is passing away, and its desires.” (I Jn. 2:17)

“It is the last hour.” (I Jn. 2:18)


Now the last 2 are from the Book of Revelation. Preterist are accused of spiritualizing the book, yet I take these 2 verses literally. Do you?

“…to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place.” (Rev. 1:1)

“The time is near.” (Rev. 1:3)

I was where you are now. Pre-mill Disp. was all I was ever taught growing up and into my adult years. This last year my whole belief system changed because of verses like these, an open mind, weeks of study, and being exposed to the Preterist view of eschatology.

 

[fgm]

There is a big difference between wrath and tribulation.The old testament is a preview and model of things to come.The Hebrews were still in Eygpt,nor raptured anywhere, when God poured out His wrath on pharoah and his house.None of the plagues harmed any of God's people.I have the faith that Jesus knows who belongs to Him and His wrath will not touch His people while here on earth awating His glorious appearance.[aka second coming]

 

[Graceforever]

I’m inclined toward believing what the Bible has to say…..

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by HomeBound on July 8, 10:09 AM:
...delivered us from the wrath to come...

Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still be delivered from the wrath to come because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming Jesus for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that Jesus is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, fallen angels, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from Jesus, to get us to believe that Jesus is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from Jesus, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Originally posted by Trotter on July 8, 7:13 PM:
...the fear and dread that Christ could come at any moment...

I don't believe that the Bible anywhere says that Jesus can come to gather us together at any moment, but says the opposite (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul says that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), and that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8). We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

I believe that Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "after the tribulation." I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

Note that belief in an imminent pre-trib rapture isn't required to be motivated to reach the lost and to remain repentant and to work diligently every day for the Lord because we never know when we or any lost individual is going to die (Luke 12:20). And we know we will be judged by our works (Matthew 25:26, 30; 2 Corinthians 5:10-11; 1 Peter 1:17; Revelation 2:23; Luke 12:47-48).

Originally posted by Trotter on July 8, 7:13 PM:
...watching...

Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).

"And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't asking "Could ye not watch with me for the imminent rapture for one hour?" And he wasn't saying "Watch and pray for the imminent rapture that ye enter not into temptation." He was asking "Could ye not stay awake with me for one hour?" And he was saying "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.


http://geocities.com/postrib

 

[LadyEagle]

Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from Jesus, to get us to believe that Jesus is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us.

Satan is already turning people, even some christians (notice I used a small c) to turn people away from Jesus. And it isn't the tribulation yet.