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REVELATIONS ANTICHRIST
- Thread starter Alex
- Start date
Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).
Note that in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.
Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).
Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).
Note that Jesus comes on people at an hour they will not know only "if" they aren't watching: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul said that if we watch for the 2nd coming it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6). Note that between the 6th and 7th vials, at the very end of the tribulation, Jesus is still exhorting us to keep watching for his coming: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth" (Revelation 16:15).
Before the 2nd coming, at the abomination of desolation, I believe those of us alive and still watching will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).
http://www.geocities.com/postrib
Note that the Bible doesn't refer to grace ending, but instead says "that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace" (Ephesians 2:7). I believe the covenant of grace (Hebrews 10:29) is the "everlasting covenant" (Hebrews 13:20), and the gospel of grace (Acts 20:24) is the "everlasting gospel" (Revelation 14:6). We Christians who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) will be in his grace.
"Grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Timothy 1:9).
And grace will continue even after the tribulation, for at the 2nd coming Jesus "will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" (Zechariah 12:10).
God has always given grace: "Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD" (Genesis 6:8); "The LORD said unto Moses... thou hast found grace in my sight" (Exodus 33:17); "Found grace in the wilderness; even Israel" (Jeremiah 31:2); "Grace hath been shewed from the LORD our God" (Ezra 9:8); "He giveth grace" (Proverbs 3:34).
Note that the letter to the Hebrews tells them that the New Covenant has already replaced the Old Covenant; the following passage is only in future tense when quoting directly from Jeremiah; before and after the quote it is not in future tense: "[Jesus] is [present tense] the mediator of a better covenant, which was established [perfect tense] upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, [begins direct quote from Jeremiah 31:31-34] Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [ends direct quote from Jeremiah 31:31-34]. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made [perfect tense] the first old" (Hebrews 8:6-13).
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith" (Hebrews 10:19-22).
"Behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom" (Matthew 27:51).
"[Jesus] is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Hebrews 9:15).
"Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling... See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven" (Hebrews 12:24-25).
I believe Jesus said the tribulation will be cut short because we the elect will still be here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's (eklektos) sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:21-22).
I believe we in the church are the elect, and need to put on longsuffering: "Put on therefore, as the elect (eklektos) of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" (Colossians 3:12).
Note that at the 2nd coming some of us elect will still be "alive and remain" (1 Thessalonians 4:15) on the earth: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect (eklektos) from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:27).
Does Revelation say the trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? Isn't it possible that God's judgment may not begin until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and that none of them will be directed at us Christians?
Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) go through its wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, martyrdoms, and natural disasters, just as we Christians have always suffered, and not because God was bringing judgment against us?
I personally don't believe that the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) is the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), but that the rapture trumpet will sound "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 vials are finished. I don't believe that Revelation shows Jesus coming or the Antichrist being destroyed at the 7th trumpet, for the Antichrist is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21), after the vials (Revelation 16). I believe Paul taught that the Antichrist would be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). I don't believe that Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ.
In the pre-trib dispensational view, is the Jewish dispensation regarding Mosaic feasts applicable to the church? Would "Jacob's trouble" then also be applicable to the church? And if, in the pre-trib view, the timing of the rapture will be tied to the timing of the Mosaic feasts, how does that fit in with their doctrine of imminence?
Are there any scriptures or ancient Jewish sources about the Feasts that would require a pre-trib rapture?
In the pre-trib dispensational view, would any Jewish dispensation regarding marriage customs be applicable to the church?
What are the ancient historical sources for the Jewish marriage customs that the pre-trib view says apply to the church?
Can you quote from the ancient Jewish sources for any wedding customs that would require a pre-trib rapture?
Be careful not to be led astray by any "traditions" or teachings of men that aren't in the Bible itself (Colossians 2:8, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).
Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).
"And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't asking "Could ye not watch with me for the imminent rapture for one hour?" And he wasn't saying "Watch and pray for the imminent rapture that ye enter not into temptation." He was asking "Could ye not stay awake with me for one hour?" And he was saying "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."
Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.
No one should lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) when the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation. No one should lose the hope even if they are at the point of death in the great tribulation, for our hope for eternal life in Jesus Christ (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7) goes beyond any suffering in this life and any dread of death (Philippians 1:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:19, John 12:25, Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15).
"In hope of eternal life"
"That blessed hope"
"The hope of eternal life"
(Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7).
Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says nothing regarding the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, for tribulation and comfort aren't opposed to each other:
"I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation" (2 Corinthians 7:4).
"Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation" (2 Corinthians 1:3-7).
"To comfort you concerning your faith: That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:2-4).
In 1 Thessalonians 4:18, Paul meant we're to comfort each other that we'll see our departed loved ones again: "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him... Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, 18).
I believe we all -- whether we are pre-trib or post-trib -- must in these days begin to face and get free of any fear of tribulation and any fear of death, as Christians have always been exhorted to:
"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" (Revelation 21:7-8).
"Deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:15).
"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do" (Luke 12:4).
"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Philippians 1:21-23).
We can get ready for Jesus' coming by faithfully working until he comes (Luke 19:13) in that work which he has given each of us to do for him (Mark 13:34), so that we might not be the wicked, lazy servant that he will reject at his coming (Matthew 25:26-30). All believers will be judged by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10) at the 2nd coming (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27).
We can get ready for the tribulation that must come before Jesus comes by knowing beforehand everything that must happen, so that our faith will not be blindsided by anything that happens: "Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23), and we can prepare by remaining repentant from every sin and in daily service to Christ, so that our faith will not be on the sand when the storm hits: "Every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it" (Matthew 7:26-27).
Matthew 16:24
New Member
I agree 100%, you took what I said out of context. I did not mean to gaze up at the sky looking for Jesus.
I do see your point and questioned it myself and to be honest I am still looking to understand everything (still studying).
Anyway, this is why I believe in a pre-trib rapture:
Note: lots of reading, you can skim through it if it is too long. My apologizes, if anyone wants half of it deleted, let me know and I will take care of it, God bless
1. The saints are commanded to watch. They are not commanded to watch for the Tribulation, but for the blessed hope, which is the Rapture. Scriptures proving this have already been covered in the previous post. If the saints were to go through the Tribulation, it would contradict and nullify God’s Word.
2. Of the saints that get saved during the Tribulation, most will be greatly persecuted and killed. The few that survive will go into the Millennium to repopulate the earth. If the Rapture came after the Tribulation, there would be no saints to go into the Millennium. This would make the fulfillment of God’s Word on this subject, impossible.
3. The judgment of the nations, mentioned in Matthew chapter twenty-five, is held immediately after the Tribulation and Armageddon. If the Rapture had just happened, there would be no "sheep" at this judgment. As it is written, AND HE SHALL SET THE SHEEP ON HIS RIGHT HAND, BUT THE GOATS ON THE LEFT-Mt 25:33. The sheep are those that are saved. The goats are the unsaved. Again, God’s Word could not be fulfilled, if the Rapture came after the Tribulation.
4. If the church were to go through the Tribulation, it would contradict many verses in the Bible. Most of the saints will be beheaded. The Bible clearly shows, the Antichrist will prevail against the saints. Anyone that claims the church will go through the Tribulation does not appear to understand what the Tribulation will really be like. Very few people will be left alive afterward. If Jesus did not come back exactly when He does, there should no flesh be left alive. The Scriptures on this were covered in the preceding text.
5. It is written, WHEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS-1 Thes 4:18. If we were watching for the horrible Tribulation period, we would not be comforted. We would be terrified. This Scripture could not be fulfilled, if the saints were to go into the Tribulation period.
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6. It is written, AND WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, THEN LOOK UP, AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS; FOR YOUR REDEMPTION (or your being caught up) DRAWETH NIGH-Lk 21:28. In Luke chapter 21, events of the Tribulation are described. Verse 28 shows that when these events begin to happen, after Israel’s rebirth, then we are to know that the Rapture is about to happen. Note, it did not say, when they "have" happened, but when they "begin" to happen. They begin to happen as birth pangs of a woman about to have a child. Again, if a person was going to go through the Tribulation, the wording of this verse would be inaccurate.
7. It is written, BLESSED IS THAT SERVANT, WHOM HIS LORD WHEN HE COMETH SHALL FIND SO DOING (which denotes working for, or serving God)-Lk 12:43. The Scriptures clearly show that during the Tribulation a time will come when the saints will not be able to work. As it is written, I MUST WORK THE WORKS OF HIM THAT SENT ME, WHILE IT IS DAY: THE NIGHT COMETH (which represents the Tribulation), WHEN NO MAN CAN WORK-Jn 9:4. This Scripture of the Lord appearing at the Rapture very clearly shows that it happens before the Tribulation. During the Tribulation, especially the second part, it will be nearly impossible to work; before the Rapture comes, the saints can be working. Verse 45 confirms it is the period prior to the Rapture when people are saying, MY LORD DELAYETH HIS COMING. This same message is confirmed in Mt 24:45-48.
8. The seven feasts of Israel give us God’s timetable. These are covered in Lev chapter 23.
In the Bible, the number seven is used to mean "total" or "completeness." It seems evident that all Bible doctrine and prophecy are founded in these feasts. They reveal the time for the fulfillment of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, His coming again, and the millennial Kingdom.
The following chart gives a brief example of what is being said. These events occurred on the exact dates that God had set over 1400 years before Jesus was born. Keep in mind that the Jewish day begins in the evening (near dusk), on the previous day. Feasts appear in the order that God gave them (Lev 23).
l. Passover Fourteenth day of the first month. Jesus was crucified. Jesus became our Passover (fulfilled).
2. Unleavened Bread Fifteenth day of the first month. Jesus buried. The middle loaf of bread is hidden or buried (fulfilled).
3. Firstfruits
Sunday following Unleavened Bread. Jesus resurrected. He became the Firstfruits of them that died (fulfilled).
4. Pentecost
Also called Feast of Weeks in the Old Testament. Fiftieth day after Firstfruits. The Holy Spirit came in His fullness (fulfilled).
5. Trumpets First day of the seventh month. The Rapture (not yet fulfilled). Next major event.
6. Atonement
Tenth day of the seventh month. Repentance of Israel. When they shall look upon Him, Whom they have pierced (not yet fulfilled).
7. Tabernacles
Fifteenth day of the seventh month. The coming state of rest. Jesus reigns on earth for one thousand years (not yet fulfilled).
It should be noted that these seven feasts were observed on specific days. When Jesus came the first time, He fulfilled the first three feasts on the precise days and in the same order that God had given them. The fourth feast was also fulfilled ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, when He sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. The last three feasts are awaiting fulfillment and are associated with events surrounding His second coming. Please note that when Jesus returns the second time, there are actually two phases to His coming: 1) before the Tribulation, He comes in the clouds to rapture the saints-ref 1 Thes 4:16,17; and 2) after the Tribulation, He physically returns to the earth, and every eye shall see Him-ref Mt 24:29,30; Zech 12:10. The next feast to be fulfilled is Trumpets; the next event to be fulfilled on God’s prophetic timetable is the Rapture. In the wilderness account, there were two trumpets blown, the first one and the last one. The first trumpet was for the gathering or calling of the people; the second (or last) was for the people to move out.
AND THE LORD SPAKE UNTO MOSES, SAYING, MAKE THEE TWO TRUMPETS OF SILVER; OF A WHOLE PIECE SHALT THOU MAKE THEM: THAT THOU MAYEST USE THEM FOR THE CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, AND FOR THE JOURNEYING OF THE CAMPS-Num 10:1,2. Note, there are two.
There are two events in the Rapture. It is written, FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD. The first event is, AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST. The second event is, THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD-1 Thes 4:16,17.
It should also be noted that there is a cry made (a notification or to call aloud), alerting the virgins that the Bridegroom is coming; afterward, they "move out" or are taken-ref Mt 25:6.
Did God give us the day of the year, when the Rapture will happen, as He did for Jesus to be crucified, to be buried, to rise from the dead, and the coming of the fullness of the Holy Spirit? The answer is, clearly, yes.
This shows clearly that the Rapture does not happen after the Tribulation.
The name of each feast gives us a clue to what the fulfillment of that feast would be.
The Feast of Passover was fulfilled on God’s exact date, when Jesus became our Passover Lamb. As it is written, BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD, WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD-Jn 1:29.
The Feast of Unleavened Bread was fulfilled, when Jesus (representing the middle loaf that is hidden) was buried on this exact date. Unleavened bread represents no sin. Jesus was called the Bread of life and was without sin.
The Feast of Firstfruits was fulfilled on God’s exact date, when Jesus became the Firstfruits out of the grave. He rose from the dead.
The Feast of Pentecost was fulfilled on God’s exact date, when the Holy Spirit came in His fullness upon the chosen disciples. This marked the beginning of the summer wheat harvest; the firstfruits of the second harvest are offered at this feast.
The next feast is the Feast of Trumpets. The next major event to look for is the Rapture, which involves the blowing of trumpets.
God has set specific dates for certain events to happen to fulfill His Word.
9. In the Revelation, the church is mentioned many times. However, after Rev 3:22, the words "church and churches" do not appear again as referring to a church present on the earth. The seven churches previous to chapter four represent "completeness." They are described as candlesticks. It is written, AND THE SEVEN CANDLESTICKS WHICH THOU SAWEST ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES-Rev 1:20. A bit further on in the Revelation, the events of the Tribulation begin to unfold, which clearly denote the church is gone.
10. The seven churches (which represent the entire church age) are covered in Rev chapter 2 through Rev chapter 3:22. The very next verses indicate the Rapture. As it is written, AFTER THIS (or after the seventh church) I LOOKED, AND, BEHOLD, A DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN: AND THE FIRST VOICE WHICH I HEARD WAS AS IT WERE OF A TRUMPET TALKING WITH ME; WHICH SAID, COME UP HITHER, AND I WILL SHOW THEE THINGS WHICH MUST BE HEREAFTER-Rev 4:1. (Hereafter, what?) What was the Bible just talking about? "the seven churches." After the seven churches comes the Rapture of the church. From this point on, no church is ever mentioned as being present on the earth during the Tribulation. The only thing mentioned is the "great harlot," which is an abomination before God and shall be destroyed sometime during the Tribulation.
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11. The evangelizing of the earth during the Tribulation is clearly given to the 144,000 male, virgin Jewish saints from the twelve tribes of Israel-ref Rev 7 and 14. These come forth during the first part of the Tribulation. They will preach the EVERLASTING GOSPEL and the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM-ref Rev 14:6 and Mt 24:14. It is written, AND THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE PREACHED IN ALL THE WORLD FOR A WITNESS UNTO ALL NATIONS; AND THEN SHALL THE END COME. There is absolutely no mention of the church evangelizing the earth at all during the Tribulation. If the church were present, the Scriptures concerning the 144,000 would undoubtedly be incorrect.
12. Ten times in the Revelation the word "wrath" is mentioned as pertaining to the Tribulation. It is written, WRATH OF THE LAMB-Rev 6:16; THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME-Rev 6:17; AND THY WRATH IS COME-Rev 11:18; THE SAME SHALL DRINK OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF GOD-Rev 14:10; OF THE WRATH OF GOD-Rev 14:19; IN THEM IS FILLED UP THE WRATH OF GOD-Rev 15:1; WRATH OF GOD-Rev 15:7; POUR OUT THE VIALS OF THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE EARTH-Rev 16:1; FIERCENESS OF HIS WRATH-Rev 16:19; FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD-Rev 19:15.
Now, we read, FOR GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US (the saints) TO WRATH-1 Thes 5:9. The verse concludes by saying, BUT T
BTAIN SALVATION BY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. These verses are unmistakably clear. If a person belongs to Jesus, they will not see the wrath of God. Many times in the Scriptures the term, "the wrath of God," is applied to the Tribulation.It is written, EVEN JESUS, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME (which is the Tribulation)-1 Thes 1:10. What is the "wrath to come?" The Bible has just told us ten times about the wrath of God in the Tribulation. It is also written, THEREFORE BEING JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. MUCH MORE THEN, BEING NOW JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM-Ro 5:1,9. Further, it is written, AND HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM-Jn 3:36. The Scriptures are very clear. The Tribulation is a time of God’s wrath. The saints will be delivered from the wrath to come. Even a little child should be able to understand this clearly.
Other biblical words that are associated with the Tribulation or Armageddon are: cruel, trouble, distress, wasteness, desolation, darkness, gloominess, clouds, thick darkness, blood, vengeance, destruction, fierce anger, fire, jealousy, revengeth, furious, arrows drunk with blood, sword, devour flesh, terrible, great distress, men’s hearts failing them for fear, powers of heaven shall be shaken, wars, great earthquakes, famines, pestilences, and fearful signs. This is only a partial list.
13. In Lk 21:8-26, many of the verses are dealing with the Tribulation. Then Jesus gives us a command: PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS-Lk 21:36. We may ask, "Escape all what things?" The answer is, all those things that have been described, which includes the Tribulation. In other words, the saints are to pray that they are accounted worthy to escape the Tribulation by being raptured. The Rapture is covered in verse 28.
14. What a temptation it will be as the people come face to face with death or worshipping the image of the beast! What a temptation it will be to have a newborn baby starving in your arms, as you cannot buy or sell without the mark of the beast! Will a mother watch her baby slowly starve to death, or take the mark? Will a person stand by and watch as their loved ones are beheaded, and then themselves, or will they give in and worship the image? Most people will do nearly anything when their life is at stake. What a day of temptation it will be! The Bible calls the Tribulation, THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION-Rev 3:10.
Once Noah was safe, then the flood came. God waited until Noah and his family were able to escape the terrible judgment that was about to come upon the earth. It is written, GOD WAITED IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, WHILE THE ARK WAS A PREPARING-1 Pe 3:20; FOR IF GOD...SPARED NOT THE OLD WORLD, BUT SAVED NOAH THE EIGHTH PERSON-2 Pe 2:4,5; THE LORD KNOWETH HOW TO DELIVER THE GODLY OUT OF TEMPTATIONS-2 Pe 2:9. We may say, the Lord knows how to deliver the saints out of the Tribulation and its temptations.
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15. The Tribulation is a great time of temptation. When a person prays the Lord’s prayer, do they not pray the following?
AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL-Mt 6:13.
AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, BUT DELIVER US FROM EVIL-Lk 11:4.
WATCH AND PRAY, THAT YE ENTER NOT INTO TEMPTATION-Mt 26:41.
WATCH YE AND PRAY, LEST YE ENTER INTO TEMPTATION-Mk 14:38.
HE SAID UNTO THEM, PRAY THAT YE ENTER NOT INTO TEMPTATION-Lk 22:40.
16. Again, the next verse is unmistakably clear. The saints that keep God’s Word will absolutely, beyond any doubt, not go into the Tribulation. It is written, BECAUSE THOU HAST KEPT THE WORD. That bears repeating: BECAUSE THOU HAST KEPT THE WORD OF MY PATIENCE (note the next words) I ALSO WILL. God is giving a promise that He will do something for those that have kept "His" Word. I ALSO WILL KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION (which is the Tribulation), WHICH SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH-Rev 3:10. Again, even a little child can understand this.
17. The next verse also is extremely clear. If a person repents, they will not go into the Great Tribulation. If they do not repent, they will go into the Great Tribulation. It is written, BEHOLD, I WILL CAST HER...AND THEM...INTO GREAT TRIBULATION, EXCEPT THEY REPENT-Rev 2:22.
18. It is written, HASTE THEE, ESCAPE THITHER; FOR I CANNOT DO ANY THING TILL THOU BE COME THITHER-Gen 19:22. The Lord is saying, I cannot do anything till the righteous are taken out of the way. Then the judgments shall come. THEN THE LORD RAINED UPON SODOM AND UPON GOMORRAH BRIMSTONE AND FIRE FROM THE LORD OUT OF HEAVEN-Gen 19:24. In the same manner, the Lord will rain His wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth during the Tribulation, after the righteous are removed by the Rapture.
19. It is written, NOW WE BESEECH YOU, BRETHREN, BY THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND BY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM (which is the Rapture). LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION. AND NOW YE KNOW WHAT WITHHOLDETH THAT HE MIGHT BE REVEALED IN HIS TIME-2 Thes 2:1,3,6.
AND NOW YE KNOW. The people are being told that they know something. That something is, WHAT WITHHOLDETH (or what is restraining, or holding the Antichrist back). Paul had apparently clearly explained what it was that was withholding the Antichrist from coming forth.
Paul is assuring the people that the Antichrist is still being held back from being revealed until something happens. That something is very clearly stated. Verses one through three have shown us an order of events. First, there had to come a falling away. Religious deception was also alluded to. Second, the saints had to be gathered unto Jesus in the Rapture. Third, the Antichrist could then be revealed. From these words of God, the people could know what was holding back the Antichrist from coming forth. The falling away had to occur. Then the Rapture had to take place. Until the "catching away" of God’s people comes, the Antichrist shall not be revealed, which is "seal one." Once the Antichrist is revealed, then the signing of the covenant with Israel can occur-ref Dan 9:27. This begins the Tribulation.
THAT HE (the Antichrist) MIGHT BE REVEALED IN HIS (proper) TIME. There is a specific time for the Antichrist to be revealed. There is a specific time for the Rapture to happen.
These Scriptures show very clearly that the Rapture must come first, and only then will the Antichrist be allowed to come forth and the Tribulation begin.
20. FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY (or secret power of lawlessness) DOTH ALREADY WORK (or is already at work): ONLY HE WHO NOW LETTETH (or is restraining) WILL LET, UNTIL HE BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY (the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way-NIV). AND THEN SHALL THAT WICKED (or lawless one) BE REVEALED-2 Thes 2:7,8.
FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY (or secret power of lawlessness) DOTH ALREADY WORK (or is already at work). The mysterious, hidden power that is behind wickedness or sin, and the planned coming forth of the Antichrist is already working to accomplish its purpose. Satan and his kingdom are already at work.
ONLY "HE" WHO NOW LETTETH (or is restraining) WILL LET (or will continue to do so-NIV), UNTIL "HE" BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.
To paraphrase this verse, it is saying that someone ("he") is holding back, or restraining the Antichrist from being revealed, or from being let loose, or coming forth until that someone ("he") is taken out of the way or is removed.
The "he" in this verse is much debated among Bible scholars. God’s Word has shown the Rapture of the saints must occur and then the Antichrist can be let loose or come forth and be revealed. Some may say the "he" represents the church. Others may say the "he" represents the Holy Spirit. Others may say the "he" represents the restraining power of the Holy Spirit that is in the believers. There are other opinions as well.
There is no question that the Holy Spirit will not leave the earth, because people cannot be saved apart from the Holy Spirit. Multitudes of people will be saved during the Tribulation, which follows the Antichrist coming forth. So it would appear that the "he" would represent the restraining power of the Holy Spirit that is in the believers. The Holy Spirit does appear to be holding back the Antichrist from being revealed; however, there is a day coming when it appears that He will let the Antichrist come forth. "He will be taken out of the way," perhaps, means that His restraining power will be taken out of the way. Thus, the Scriptures can be fulfilled.
As a result, when the church is raptured, immediately the Antichrist should come forth and be revealed, in order to initiate his plan to dominate the world. AND THEN, once the saints have been raptured, SHALL THAT WICKED (or lawless one), which is the Antichrist, BE REVEALED. The Antichrist will be allowed to come forth, be revealed, and confirm a covenant with Israel which begins the Tribulation-2 Thes 2:7,8; ref Dan 9:27.
Again, the Scriptures are showing us clearly, the Rapture comes before the Antichrist is revealed and before the Tribulation.
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21. As we have noted, the dead in Christ rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall join them in the air. Since the Scriptures show us that the resurrection happens prior to the Tribulation, then we have absolute proof that the Rapture, which immediately follows, also has to happen before the Tribulation.
Isa 26:19-21 shows very clearly, the dead (in Christ) shall live "before" the Lord comes to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, which is the Tribulation. It is written, THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. AWAKE AND SING, YE THAT DWELL IN DUST: FOR THY DEW IS AS THE DEW OF HERBS, AND THE EARTH SHALL CAST OUT THE DEAD. COME, MY PEOPLE, ENTER THOU INTO THY CHAMBERS, AND SHUT THY DOORS ABOUT THEE: HIDE THYSELF AS IT WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION (which is the Tribulation) BE OVERPAST. FOR, BEHOLD, THE LORD COMETH OUT OF HIS PLACE TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH FOR THEIR INIQUITY.
Twenty-one reasons have come forth that scripturally show the Rapture will come prior to the Tribulation. Some of these have also shown that the Rapture must come before the Antichrist can be revealed.
22. The following Scriptures portray the raptured saints before the throne of God prior to the first seal of the Revelation being opened. This, again, clearly shows the Rapture comes before the Tribulation. It is written, AND THEY SUNG A NEW SONG, SAYING, THOU ART WORTHY TO TAKE THE BOOK (or scroll), AND T
PEN (or break) THE SEALS THEREOF: FOR THOU WAST SLAIN (or slaughtered), AND HAST REDEEMED (or ransomed, or purchased) US TO (or for) GOD BY THY BLOOD OUT OF EVERY KINDRED (or tribe), AND TONGUE (or language), AND PEOPLE, AND NATION; AND HAST MADE US UNTUR GOD KINGS (or a kingdom) AND PRIESTS (to serve our God): AND WE SHALL REIGN ON (or rule over) THE EARTH. AND I BEHELD, AND I HEARD THE VOICE OF MANY ANGELS ROUND ABOUT THE THRONE (or they encircled the throne) AND THE BEASTS (or living beings) AND THE ELDERS: AND THE NUMBER OF THEM WAS TEN THOUSAND TIMES TEN THOUSAND, AND THOUSANDS OF THOUSANDS-Rev 5:9-11.AND THEY SUNG A NEW SONG. The four living beings and the elders appear to be singing. SAYING, THOU ART WORTHY TO TAKE THE BOOK (or scroll), AND T
PEN (or break) THE SEALS THEREOF. In this passage, taking the scroll and breaking the seals is mentioned. Opening the scroll is not mentioned at this point. FOR THOU WAST SLAIN (or slaughtered). Jesus was worthy, because He was slain and has redeemed (or purchased, or ransomed) us (the saints). As it is written, AND HAST REDEEMED (or ransomed, or purchased) US. Here are the saints (US) pictured before the throne of God BEFORE the first seal is ever opened. Here are the saints that have just been raptured (US). We are redeemed TO (or for) GOD BY THY BLOOD. Angels are not ransomed by the blood of the Lamb. We (the saints) are. Where do we (the saints) come from? We come OUT OF EVERY KINDRED (or tribe), AND TONGUE (or language), AND PEOPLE, AND NATION. It is impossible for these to be angels, as the angels do not come from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. John heard the voice, COME UP HITHER-Rev 4:1, which is symbolic of the Rapture. The church age is over. Now, John is relating what he is seeing. John sees "us." As it is written,Rev 5:10-AND HAST MADE US. Here is the second time this word is used. That word means exactly what it says, "US."
Now combine this with the words of Rev 3:10-BECAUSE THOU HAST KEPT THE WORD OF MY PATIENCE, I ALSO WILL KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION (which is the Tribulation), WHICH SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH. Here is clear, unmistakable proof that the saints will not go into the Tribulation. They shall be raptured and shall be before the throne of God prior to the first seal being opened. Thus, it is written, and thus, it shall be. The question is, how many are really ready? If Jesus came today, would "you" be taken?
The verse continues, and has made US UNT
UR GOD KINGS AND PRIESTS (to serve our God). We are a kingdom unto God and shall be kings and priests AND WE SHALL REIGN ON (or rule over) THE EARTH. There are those that may say, this verse does not mean exactly what it says. The singing in the verse now turns to the future and shows that we (the saints) shall reign on the earth. This is describing the millennial reign of Jesus Christ, as we shall reign and rule with Jesus for one thousand years. Here the word "we" is used as referring to the "saints." Here again, "we" (the saints) are pictured before the throne of God prior to the first seal ever being opened.Rev 5:11-AND I BEHELD, AND I HEARD THE VOICE OF MANY ANGELS. The voices now include the angels, which were ROUND ABOUT THE THRONE (they encircled the throne) AND THE BEASTS (or living beings) AND THE ELDERS.
The question arises, are these angels, or are they the saints that are now called angels? The singing that has just been going on used such words as, "redeemed us, made us, and we shall." If these words were correctly translated by the direction of the Holy Spirit, then the angels before the throne appear to be the saints. Consider the following: I JOHN...FELL DOWN TO WORSHIP BEFORE THE FEET OF THE ANGEL WHICH SHEWED ME THESE THINGS. THEN SAITH HE UNTO ME, SEE THOU DO IT NOT: FOR I AM THY FELLOWSERVANT, AND OF THY BRETHREN THE PROPHETS-Rev 22:8,9. This same John, that used the word "angels" in Rev 5:11, thought this person was also an angel, yet he was not. He was a saint that had been redeemed by the blood of Jesus. We might ask, how can this be? Note the words of Jesus. FOR IN THE RESURRECTION THEY NEITHER MARRY, NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE, BUT ARE AS THE ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN-Mt 22:30. The saints become as the angels.
John FELL AT HIS FEET TO WORSHIP what seemingly appeared to be an angel. AND HE SAID UNTO ME, SEE THOU DO IT NOT: I AM THY FELLOWSERVANT, AND OF THY BRETHREN THAT HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS-Rev 19:10. Again, we note that once we are in heaven, Jesus said we are AS THE ANGELS OF GOD. However, the true angels of God are not redeemed.
Considering the Scriptures and what was being said, it appears the multitude of angels before the throne are the saints that were redeemed.
AND THE NUMBER OF THEM WAS TEN THOUSAND TIMES TEN THOUSAND, AND THOUSANDS OF THOUSANDS. This totals to one hundred million, and thousands of thousands. While this seems like a very large number, "if" this represents the resurrected and raptured saints for all times, then the percentage of people that are redeemed, throughout all of history, is extremely small. Jesus did say, FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT-Mt 7:14. Some might say that this number simply represents an infinite number which no man can know. Nevertheless, if the number is taken as it is written in the KJV, then it appears to be as previously stated.
Matthew 16:24
New Member
Since I went off on a Rapture soap box I Will list the characteristics of the Antichrist,.
We might draw some ideas from the Scripture as to his identity. In many ways, he appears to try to duplicate Jesus. (Note: COV denotes a combination of verses.)
We may expect the following:
His age may be 30 to 50, when he comes forth-ref Lk 3:23
He is the son of Satan-ref Gen 3:15
He uses his own name-ref Jn 5:43
The number of his name is 666-ref Rev 13:17,18
He may be a member of the EEC at this time-ref Dan 9:26
He could hold a position of importance in the EEC-COV
He may be good-looking-ref Ezek 28:12
He may be very charismatic and dynamic-COV
He may be a diplomat of some type or diplomatic-COV
He should be single-ref Dan 11:37-COV (Jesus was single; it would be very difficult for the Jews to receive a
married person as being God and their Messiah)
He may be an Assyrian-ref Mic 5:6; Isa 30:31
He should be a Jew-ref Dan 11:37 (it would seem he would have to be a Jew to be accepted by the Jews as their Messiah)
He could come from the tribe of Dan-ref Gen 49:17; Rev 7
He comes forth out of the revived Roman Empire-ref Dan 9:26
He will be extremely intelligent-ref Ezek 28:12
He will be very proud and confident-ref Dan 8:25; 11:37
He will be bold-COV
His look will be very stout or intimidating-ref Dan 7:20
He will have the characteristics of his father, Satan-ref Gen 3:15; COV
He will be very evil, a liar, deceitful, cunning, and persuasive-COV
He will be able to lie and deceive the masses-ref Rev 13:8-COV
People will eventually be positive that he is wonderful and truthful-COV
People will eventually be positive that he is the Christ-ref Rev 13
People will eventually be positive that he is God-ref 2 Thes 2:4; Rev 13
(Additional information about what he does and speaks should come forth later in the text in a chronological order.)
A man-ref Rev 13:18
Comes symbolized as a rider on a WHITE HORSE-ref Rev 6:2
Comes with a BOW but no arrows-ref Rev 6:2
Comes in his own name-ref Jn 5:43
Is called the Assyrian-ref Isa 30:31; also Mic 5:6
IT HAD TEN HORNS-Dan 7:7; there are ten horns, or kings, or nations
THERE CAME UP AMONG THEM ANOTHER LITTLE HORN-Dan 7:8; from among the ten, the Antichrist came forth
THE OTHER horn WHICH CAME UP-Dan 7:20
ANOTHER horn or king SHALL RISE AFTER THEM-Dan 7:24
THAT HORN THAT HAD EYES-Dan 7:20
Is from THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME (the Old Roman Empire nations)-Dan 9:26
DIVERSE FROM THE FIRST-Dan 7:24
A KING OF FIERCE COUNTENANCE-Dan 8:23
WHOSE LOOK WAS MORE STOUT (or more imposing, or intimidating)-Dan 7:20
Does not REGARD THE GOD OF HIS FATHERS-Dan 11:37 (indicates he is from one of the tribes of Israel)
SHALL...HONOR...A GOD WHOM HIS FATHERS KNEW NOT-Dan 11:38 (also indicates he is from one of the tribes of Israel)
No DESIRE OF WOMEN-Dan 11:37 (indicates he is single)
He is the seed of Satan, THY SEED-Gen 3:15
He is called THE SON OF PERDITION-2 Thes 2:3
THE BEAST...ASCENDETH OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT-Rev 11:7; ref 17:8
THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST...IS...(666)-Rev 13:18 NIV
IT IS THE NUMBER OF A MAN-Rev 13:18
HE SHALL MAGNIFY HIMSELF-Dan 8:25; 11:37
THE BEAST...WAS, AND IS NOT-Rev 17:8,11
THE BEAST...YET IS-Rev 17:8
THE BEAST...IS THE EIGHTH-Rev 17:11
THE BEAST...IS OF THE SEVEN-Rev 17:11(The seven are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, the Roman Empire, and the revived Roman Empire)
THE BEAST...SHALL ASCEND OUT OF THE…PIT-Rev 17:8
IS NOT YET COME-Rev 17:10
We might draw some ideas from the Scripture as to his identity. In many ways, he appears to try to duplicate Jesus. (Note: COV denotes a combination of verses.)
We may expect the following:
His age may be 30 to 50, when he comes forth-ref Lk 3:23
He is the son of Satan-ref Gen 3:15
He uses his own name-ref Jn 5:43
The number of his name is 666-ref Rev 13:17,18
He may be a member of the EEC at this time-ref Dan 9:26
He could hold a position of importance in the EEC-COV
He may be good-looking-ref Ezek 28:12
He may be very charismatic and dynamic-COV
He may be a diplomat of some type or diplomatic-COV
He should be single-ref Dan 11:37-COV (Jesus was single; it would be very difficult for the Jews to receive a
married person as being God and their Messiah)
He may be an Assyrian-ref Mic 5:6; Isa 30:31
He should be a Jew-ref Dan 11:37 (it would seem he would have to be a Jew to be accepted by the Jews as their Messiah)
He could come from the tribe of Dan-ref Gen 49:17; Rev 7
He comes forth out of the revived Roman Empire-ref Dan 9:26
He will be extremely intelligent-ref Ezek 28:12
He will be very proud and confident-ref Dan 8:25; 11:37
He will be bold-COV
His look will be very stout or intimidating-ref Dan 7:20
He will have the characteristics of his father, Satan-ref Gen 3:15; COV
He will be very evil, a liar, deceitful, cunning, and persuasive-COV
He will be able to lie and deceive the masses-ref Rev 13:8-COV
People will eventually be positive that he is wonderful and truthful-COV
People will eventually be positive that he is the Christ-ref Rev 13
People will eventually be positive that he is God-ref 2 Thes 2:4; Rev 13
(Additional information about what he does and speaks should come forth later in the text in a chronological order.)
A man-ref Rev 13:18
Comes symbolized as a rider on a WHITE HORSE-ref Rev 6:2
Comes with a BOW but no arrows-ref Rev 6:2
Comes in his own name-ref Jn 5:43
Is called the Assyrian-ref Isa 30:31; also Mic 5:6
IT HAD TEN HORNS-Dan 7:7; there are ten horns, or kings, or nations
THERE CAME UP AMONG THEM ANOTHER LITTLE HORN-Dan 7:8; from among the ten, the Antichrist came forth
THE OTHER horn WHICH CAME UP-Dan 7:20
ANOTHER horn or king SHALL RISE AFTER THEM-Dan 7:24
THAT HORN THAT HAD EYES-Dan 7:20
Is from THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME (the Old Roman Empire nations)-Dan 9:26
DIVERSE FROM THE FIRST-Dan 7:24
A KING OF FIERCE COUNTENANCE-Dan 8:23
WHOSE LOOK WAS MORE STOUT (or more imposing, or intimidating)-Dan 7:20
Does not REGARD THE GOD OF HIS FATHERS-Dan 11:37 (indicates he is from one of the tribes of Israel)
SHALL...HONOR...A GOD WHOM HIS FATHERS KNEW NOT-Dan 11:38 (also indicates he is from one of the tribes of Israel)
No DESIRE OF WOMEN-Dan 11:37 (indicates he is single)
He is the seed of Satan, THY SEED-Gen 3:15
He is called THE SON OF PERDITION-2 Thes 2:3
THE BEAST...ASCENDETH OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT-Rev 11:7; ref 17:8
THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST...IS...(666)-Rev 13:18 NIV
IT IS THE NUMBER OF A MAN-Rev 13:18
HE SHALL MAGNIFY HIMSELF-Dan 8:25; 11:37
THE BEAST...WAS, AND IS NOT-Rev 17:8,11
THE BEAST...YET IS-Rev 17:8
THE BEAST...IS THE EIGHTH-Rev 17:11
THE BEAST...IS OF THE SEVEN-Rev 17:11(The seven are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, the Roman Empire, and the revived Roman Empire)
THE BEAST...SHALL ASCEND OUT OF THE…PIT-Rev 17:8
IS NOT YET COME-Rev 17:10
Matthew 16:24
New Member
Uh oh triple post, please no one get upset. It's just late here.
Anyway, back to the beast/antichrist. Here is a link to a website who believes that the beast is a system and not an actual person.
BEAST
Definetly puts a twist on things. I will have to disagree because that pretty much the way things are right now. So if that were the case there are no saints left on earth!
There are few other things I disagree with on that website but interesting.
I don't think the mark is going to be 666 either, there are many ways to come up with the number 666. ASCII just to name one
It is written, HERE IS WISDOM (this is where wisdom is needed-JNT71). LET HIM THAT HATH UNDERSTANDING (or insight) (should) COUNT (or calculate) THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST: FOR IT IS THE NUMBER OF A MAN (or person); AND HIS NUMBER IS SIX HUNDRED THREESCORE AND SIX (or 666)-Rev 13:18.
This number has been calculated by many Bible scholars. Apparently, the Holy Spirit has not yet given us the understanding of who "666" (or 600 60 6) is.
Many maintain that the number representing man is 6.
The number of the name of the Antichrist is 666.
Many maintain that God’s number is 7.
Those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life will get the victory over HIS MARK, AND OVER THE NUMBER OF HIS NAME-Rev 15:2.
The purpose of the mark is THAT NO MAN MIGHT BUY OR SELL (or preventing anyone from buying or selling-JNT72), SAVE (or unless) HE THAT HAD THE MARK, OR (that is, or which is)
THE NAME OF THE BEAST,
OR THE NUMBER OF HIS NAME-Rev 13:17.
Anyway, back to the beast/antichrist. Here is a link to a website who believes that the beast is a system and not an actual person.
BEAST
Definetly puts a twist on things. I will have to disagree because that pretty much the way things are right now. So if that were the case there are no saints left on earth!
There are few other things I disagree with on that website but interesting.
I don't think the mark is going to be 666 either, there are many ways to come up with the number 666. ASCII just to name one
It is written, HERE IS WISDOM (this is where wisdom is needed-JNT71). LET HIM THAT HATH UNDERSTANDING (or insight) (should) COUNT (or calculate) THE NUMBER OF THE BEAST: FOR IT IS THE NUMBER OF A MAN (or person); AND HIS NUMBER IS SIX HUNDRED THREESCORE AND SIX (or 666)-Rev 13:18.
This number has been calculated by many Bible scholars. Apparently, the Holy Spirit has not yet given us the understanding of who "666" (or 600 60 6) is.
Many maintain that the number representing man is 6.
The number of the name of the Antichrist is 666.
Many maintain that God’s number is 7.
Those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life will get the victory over HIS MARK, AND OVER THE NUMBER OF HIS NAME-Rev 15:2.
The purpose of the mark is THAT NO MAN MIGHT BUY OR SELL (or preventing anyone from buying or selling-JNT72), SAVE (or unless) HE THAT HAD THE MARK, OR (that is, or which is)
THE NAME OF THE BEAST,
OR THE NUMBER OF HIS NAME-Rev 13:17.
Note again that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean watching for an event to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41). Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.
"In hope of eternal life," "that blessed hope," "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7). Again, no one should lose the blessed hope of eternal life when the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation. No one should lose the hope of eternal life even if they are at the point of death in the great tribulation, for our hope of eternal life goes beyond any suffering in this life and any dread of death (Philippians 1:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:19, John 12:25, Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15).
Does it show anyone repenting during the tribulation? Doesn't it say that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)? Is it possible all the Christians we see in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) are us, saved before the tribulation began? Does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation?
Could giving unbelievers the idea of a 2nd chance be dangerous? After hearing the ideas of a pre-trib rapture and a 2nd chance, could unbelievers get complacent and say "Oh, when I see a pre-trib rapture happen then I'll repent and believe; I've got a 2nd chance, right?"
Should we instead warn them? "The Bible doesn't promise that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. And in the great tribulation God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."
I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.
I believe the sheep and goat judgment of all nations (Matthew 25:32-46) is not until the white throne judgment after the millennium (Revelation 20:11-15), when I believe the sheep will enter the eternal kingdom prepared beforehand (Revelation 21:2-3), and the goats will enter everlasting punishment (Revelation 20:15). Note that only the Antichrist and False Prophet go into everlasting punishment at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20).
Note that the sheep "inherit the kingdom" (Matthew 25:34), so they must be in resurrected bodies, for "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom" (1 Corinthians 15:50).
Note that the sheep and goats are judged by what they did (Matthew 25:40, 45), just as those at the white throne judgment are judged "according to their works" (Revelation 20:12).
Note again that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says nothing regarding the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, for tribulation and comfort are in no way opposed to each other(2 Corinthians 7:4; 2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Thessalonians 3:2-4). In 1 Thessalonians 4:18, Paul meant we're to comfort each other that we'll see our departed loved ones again (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, 18).
Aren't "these things" in Luke 21:28 the "signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars" that will appear right before the 2nd coming (Luke 21:25-27)? Note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Luke 21:8-27 that he is speaking to in Luke 21:28.
Note that John 9:4-5 can't be referring to the tribulation because the two witnesses are men who will work great works during the tribulation (Revelation 11:3-6), and Revelation refers to the labours and works of us Christians who will die in the tribulation: "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them" (Revelation 14:13).
I believe that John 9:4-5 refers to the time of the arrest, crucifixion, and burial of Christ, when the disciples all fled from Christ (Mark 14:50) and went into hiding behind shut doors for fear of the Jews (John 20:19).
Again, are there any scriptures or ancient Jewish sources about the Mosaic Feasts that would require a pre-trib rapture? In the pre-trib dispensational view, is the Jewish dispensation regarding Mosaic Feasts applicable to the church? Would "Jacob's trouble" then also be applicable to the church? And if, in the pre-trib view, the timing of the rapture will be tied to the timing of the Mosaic feasts, how does that fit in with their doctrine of imminence?
Note that the Bible doesn't teach a future 2-phase coming of Jesus.
If Jesus could come back from heaven before the tribulation, then depart for some years back into heaven, then come back again after the tribulation, and this could all be referred to as a single "2nd coming," then there really would be no 2nd coming, for Jesus' two future comings would only be subsequent phases of his 1st coming as a babe in Bethlehem; there would only be one 3-phase coming, which isn't something the Bible teaches.
Could we be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth?
"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).
"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
Do the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
and two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
and two different raptures of the church?
Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, does this require that it be referring to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven? Isn't it true that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either? Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?
Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show Jesus returning to heaven? Doesn't Acts 1:11 say Jesus will "come" just as he left? Will he come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, even thought he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again? Just as he went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds and "into heaven" (Acts 1:11), couldn't he come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4)? Does the Bible teach a 3rd coming of Jesus?
In the parable of the 10 virgins, isn't the door closed at Jesus' coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31)? Does the Bible teach a 3rd coming?
Won't Christians either be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming or be lost, as the 5 foolish virgins are lost? "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Matthew 25:10-12); "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them. Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out" (Luke 13:23-28).
Aren't we Christians mentioned throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and aren't all Christians part of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?
Note that the word "church" isn't used in Chapters 19-21 of Revelation, or anywhere in the books of 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Do some then believe that these chapters and books don't refer to the church?
If we look at all the myriad descriptions of Christians in all the NT books, how many of these descriptions don't use the specific word "church," but do use other key words and phrases such as "in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," and "brethren," the same key words and phrases used to describe those of us Christians who will face the coming tribulation?
In your view, why should those "in the Lord" in Revelation 14:13 not be considered to be the church, but those "in the Lord" in Romans 16:11-13, 1 Corinthians 4:17, Ephesians 2:21, Colossians 4:7, and 1 Thessalonians 3:8 should be?
Aren't the Christians "in the Lord" in the tribulation New Covenant saints, after the cross and after Pentecost, and not Old Covenant saints?
In your view, why should those who have "the faith of Jesus" in Revelation 14:12 not be considered to be the church, but those who have "the faith of Jesus" in Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:22, Philippians 3:9, and James 2:1 should be?
In your view, why should the "saints" in Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12 not be considered to be the church, but the "saints" in Revelation 19:8, 1 Corinthians 14:33, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 1:12, Jude 3 should be?
Does it say the church ends in Revelation 6 and then resumes again in Revelation 19?
In your view, why should the "brethren" in Revelation 6:11 not be considered to be the church, but the "brethren" in Revelation 19:10, Revelation 22:9, Romans 1:13, 1 Corinthians 1:10, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13 should be?
Note that in the seven letters which begin Revelation, Jesus doesn't refer to a "church age," but only to seven 1st-century churches "which are in Asia" (Revelation 1:11). I believe the seven letters to them are "the things which are" in the passage which says: "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" (Revelation 1:19). It's not until after the letters that Jesus says: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1).
Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn't at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.
Note that it doesn't show the 144,000 as evangelists, or show anyone repenting during the tribulation.
Didn't Paul did preach the gospel of the kingdom, just as Jesus did?
"I have gone preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 20:25).
"Paul... received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 28:30-31).
"He expounded and testified the kingdom of God" (Acts 28:23).
"Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).
"We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
"That ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God" (2 Thessalonians 1:5).
"That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom" (1 Thessalonians 2:12).
"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom" (Colossians 1:13).
"The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9).
"They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:21).
"The kingdom of God is... righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17).
"My fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God" (Colossians 4:11).
"The kingdom of God is not in word, but in power" (1 Corinthians 4:20).
"Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).
Jesus: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
Jesus: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God" (Matthew 6:33).
Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still not be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).
I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming God for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that God is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.
Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from God, to get us to believe that God is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from God, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.
In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
I believe we should all be praying that we might be counted worthy to escape the tribulation: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36). But note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Luke 21:8-35 that he is speaking to in Luke 21:36.
I believe we will escape the entire tribulation and stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36) only if we die before the tribulation starts (Isaiah 57:1, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21-23).
Note that no scripture says that the purpose of the rapture is to provide a way of escape from the tribulation, just as the gospel itself has never been about a promise of escape from earthly suffering and death, but has always been a promise of victory and eternal life despite suffering and death:
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us" (Romans 8:35-37).
"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:7).
"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
"I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Romans 8:18).
"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" (2 Corinthians 4:17).
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit" (Revelation 14:12-13).
"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it" (Luke 9:23-24).
Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.
Note that just as God didn't have to rapture Noah or Lot into heaven to keep them from his wrath, so he won't have to rapture us into heaven to keep us from his wrath.
Noah was commanded to make extensive preparations on the earth in order to avoid God's wrath; he had to build a gigantic ark 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 4 1/2 stories high (Genesis 6:15), and he had to store up enough food to keep himself, 7 others in his family (Genesis 7:7), and every kind of animal alive in the ark (Genesis 6:19) for the 12 months and 10 days they would all remain in the ark (Genesis 7:11, 8:13-17) and until they could grow more food on the destroyed earth after the flood.
And Lot was greatly affected by the judgment on Sodom: he had to flee immediately and leave behind everything he owned; he even lost his wife; and he went to go live in a cave (Genesis 19:30).
I believe Isaiah 26:20-21 could be a command to those of us Christians still alive on the earth right before the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out (Revelation 16). The 7 vials aren't directed at us Christians, so that our and our families' entering our "chambers" before the 7 vials and "shutting the doors" about us (Isaiah 26:20-21) could protect us in a way like Noah and his family's entering the ark before the flood and the "shutting" of "the door of the ark" protected them (Genesis 6:16, 7:16).
"Lead us not into temptation [peirasmos]" (Matthew 6:13).
Note that while we pray this daily, as believers we may still go through times of temptation: "For a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations [peirasmos]" (1 Peter 1:6); "Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations [peirasmos], which befell me" (Acts 20:19); "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try [peirasmos] you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).
But we can take comfort in the fact that God will never allow us to face anything we cannot bear: "There hath no temptation [peirasmos] taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation [peirasmos] also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Corinthians 10:13); "Count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations [peirasmos]; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing" (James 1:2-4); "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation [peirasmos]: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him" (James 1:12).
I don't believe "the great tribulation" is a technical term that must always refer only to the final 3 1/2-year period of the end-time tribulation. John said he was going through "the" tribulation (Revelation 1:9, see the Greek), and "great" tribulation has been around since at least the 1st century (Revelation 2:22). Christians have always gone through much tribulation (Acts 14:22). Note that the Greek word for "much" in Acts 14:22 is translated 59 times in the New Testament as "great."
In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.
Post-Trib:
Could giving unbelievers the idea of a 2nd chance be dangerous? After hearing the ideas of a pre-trib rapture and a 2nd chance, could unbelievers get complacent and say "Oh, when I see a pre-trib rapture happen then I'll repent and believe; I've got a 2nd chance, right?"
I do not think so because to DIE before then un-saved means to be hell bound. IF, we are now in the great tribulation, as some believe, then, according to you, anyone not already saved is doomed already! However, as a Pre-Trib, I believe in a Rapture FIRST and even during the Trib., I still believe many will be saved. Think about a new born baby. Is this baby hell bound just because of being born DURING the Tribulation?
God Bless.........Alex
Could giving unbelievers the idea of a 2nd chance be dangerous? After hearing the ideas of a pre-trib rapture and a 2nd chance, could unbelievers get complacent and say "Oh, when I see a pre-trib rapture happen then I'll repent and believe; I've got a 2nd chance, right?"
I do not think so because to DIE before then un-saved means to be hell bound. IF, we are now in the great tribulation, as some believe, then, according to you, anyone not already saved is doomed already! However, as a Pre-Trib, I believe in a Rapture FIRST and even during the Trib., I still believe many will be saved. Think about a new born baby. Is this baby hell bound just because of being born DURING the Tribulation?
God Bless.........Alex
I don't believe the restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit in believers because many of us believers will still be on the earth during the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9), and there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
Does the Bible promise us a resurrection before the 2nd coming?
Doesn't the Bible preclude that our resurrection be before the 2nd coming because it says that the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5)?
Wouldn't the pre-trib resurrection doctrine require that 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52 on the one hand, and Revelation 20:4-5 on the other, be referring to two different bodies of Christians regarding two different comings of Christ, thus making the one body of Christ two bodies (Ephesians 4:4-5), the 2nd coming a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), the last trumpet the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and the 1st resurrection the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that it would not really make sense of scripture?
Note that in Isaiah 26:20 they're hiding themselves. There would be no need for us to hide from anything happening on the earth if we were already in our incorruptible bodies and in heaven.
I believe Isaiah 26:20-21 is a command to those of us Christians still alive on the earth right before the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out (Revelation 16). The vials aren't directed at us Christians, and if we have good bunkers with fresh water, they need not affect us in any way.
I believe Isaiah 26:20-21 will actually happen before Isaiah 26:19, in the same way that Luke 3:21 happened before Luke 3:20, because Isaiah 26:19 comes after Isaiah 26:16-18, just as Isaiah 25:8-9 (compare 1 Corinthians 15:54) comes after Isaiah 25:2-7.
"Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood" (Revelation 5:9). In the pre-trib view, will there be only 24 people in the church who will be "redeemed to God by thy blood"?
Note that at the time the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are singing they are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8); compare this with Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." I believe the 24 elders are angelic rulers who, with the 4 beasts, have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). Note that the same Hebrew word translated "chief" in Daniel 10:13 to describe ruling angels is translated "elder" in 2 Chronicles 22:1 (Young's Literal Translation and Darby Translation), so that by Hebrew dictionary definition, we can read Daniel 10:13 as referring to "elder" angels. The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).
Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be the church because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God (Revelation 5:8-9)?
Note that the Bible doesn't say the 24 elders are the church.
On what basis are the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 considered to be the church but all the Christians in Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, and 20:4 are not?
In the pre-trib view, where are all the other people in the church in Revelation 4-5? If there can be 100,000,000 angels mentioned about the throne (Revelation 5:11), why would only 24 church elders be mentioned?
Why aren't the elders at the marriage, or the supper that many say lasts the entire seven years? Do they miss the entire marriage and supper? For we see them repeatedly throughout the tribulation chapters (Revelation 7:11, 11:16, 14:3) and never is there any reference to either the marriage or the supper.
In the pre-trib view, how long before the tribulation must the rapture come in order that the judgment might be completed before the tribulation begins?
While I believe the church began in Acts 2, note that the Bible doesn't refer to a "church age," but instead says that the church will continue "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21). Note again that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and every Christian must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).
Do you get the word "taken" from: "So shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matthew 24:39-40)?
If so, note that there Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.
In the pre-trib view, how will "one taken, one left" be a secret pre-trib rapture and not an event at the revelation of Jesus, when "even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed... Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Luke 17:30, 36)?
I believe that the ones "taken" at the 2nd coming are unbelievers who are killed, just as Noah's flood "took" evil men away (Matthew 24:39-40), and that the carcasses of the ones "taken" are eaten by eagles and other birds (Luke 17:36-37, Job 39:30, Matthew 24:28, Revelation 19:21).
Again, I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.
The ones "gathered together" at Jesus' 2nd coming are his elect (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31). So I believe Christians won't be the ones "taken" or the ones "left," but the ones "gathered together."
Note the Bible keeps men and angels as separate groups: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" (1 Corinthians 6:3); "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come" (Hebrews 2:5); "The tabernacle of God is with men" (Revelation 21:3); "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels" (Colossians 2:18); "The tongues of men and of angels" (1 Corinthians 13:1); "To angels, and to men" (1 Corinthians 4:9).
Note that in Revelation 19:10, John is speaking to the same angel as Revelation 22:8-9. In both places the angel is saying that he is the fellowservant of John and the fellowservant of John's brethren (compare Hebrews 1:14).
Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?
Again, does it show anyone repenting during the tribulation? Doesn't it say that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)?
PostTrib:
I can only ask or answer a few comments at a time as I do not have any personal comments stored in a WP and my memory often fails me. As you see with my post, I try to keep within a "conversation" way of stating my opinions and do not often refer to actual scriptures by verse or chapters. If asked, I will try my best though.
You said: Again, does it show anyone repenting during the tribulation? Doesn't it say that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)
There is a big difference between asking to be saved and repenting. Anyone can "repent" of something they believe as wrong without being or becoming a believer. The above could simply mean that even though they knew they were wrong , they wouldn't repent OR in other words change their ways. This has nothing to do with those seeking salvation by acepting Jesus as their savior. But, I am often wrong and will let others respond to this as they see it.(PreTribers). There are thousands every day who "repent" but are not Christians. Also, ther is a scripture refering to Jesus taking Christians to meet Him in the clouds. He does not at this time, come to Earth and we, as Christians dwell with Him in the clouds. To me this is not the Heaven that will be given to Christians at the final judgement. Thus, Jesus come ONCE(the Rapture), before His final coming and the final judgement for all. I do not believe that any views as to PostTrib, PreTrib, etc., will send any of us to hell but I do feel, as I do with all of the Bible, that there is only ONE right view which most of us may never know till we meet Jesus in Heaven.
God Bless..........Alex
I can only ask or answer a few comments at a time as I do not have any personal comments stored in a WP and my memory often fails me. As you see with my post, I try to keep within a "conversation" way of stating my opinions and do not often refer to actual scriptures by verse or chapters. If asked, I will try my best though.
You said: Again, does it show anyone repenting during the tribulation? Doesn't it say that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)
There is a big difference between asking to be saved and repenting. Anyone can "repent" of something they believe as wrong without being or becoming a believer. The above could simply mean that even though they knew they were wrong , they wouldn't repent OR in other words change their ways. This has nothing to do with those seeking salvation by acepting Jesus as their savior. But, I am often wrong and will let others respond to this as they see it.(PreTribers). There are thousands every day who "repent" but are not Christians. Also, ther is a scripture refering to Jesus taking Christians to meet Him in the clouds. He does not at this time, come to Earth and we, as Christians dwell with Him in the clouds. To me this is not the Heaven that will be given to Christians at the final judgement. Thus, Jesus come ONCE(the Rapture), before His final coming and the final judgement for all. I do not believe that any views as to PostTrib, PreTrib, etc., will send any of us to hell but I do feel, as I do with all of the Bible, that there is only ONE right view which most of us may never know till we meet Jesus in Heaven.
God Bless..........Alex
Again, does it show anyone seeking salvation by accepting Jesus as their savior? Doesn't it say that "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)?
Couldn't we be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth? "The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31); "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Do the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds," and two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52), and two different raptures of the church?