REVELATIONS ANTICHRIST

Originally posted by Tim:
You know premillenialists can't deal with all the language of a soon return in the New Testament without doing some fancy hermaneutical footwork.
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Response from Preach the Word
Actually, I don't know of a single passage that presents even a hint of a problem. Do you know of one?

Actually there are so many that I should probably start up a new topic to discuss it. I used to be pre-trib, pre-mil. too, but a "common sense" reading of all the time-indicators in the New Testament led me to partial-preterist views. Jesus, Peter, Paul, John and Hebrews all talk about the end of the world being "at hand". If they weren't referring to the Jewish world and the associated O.T. system, then they were misleading their original listeners and readers.
When a divine prophet says something is nearing the end, he doesn't mean just to be on the edge of our seats for the next 2000 years.

 

Hi Alex,
You expressed the opinion that New Testament writers may not have known that "the end" wasn't coming for 2000 years, but they thought it was imminent and they were merely expressing those thoughts. You said,

"...Rev. has the answers that they may not have known then. Paul, for instance, said that some things he said were from his thoughts and not a Divine inspiration and this could be possible with some of the others even though they didn't put it in writting."
Please consider the implications of that possibility. When Paul expressed his personal opinion, he made it very clear that he was doing so. If he didn't do so, we MUST believe that the words carry divine authority. The whole basis of inspiration relies on this point. Otherwise we'd have no gaurantee that anything the New Testament writers said was anything more than their own opinion.
That's why when John writes in the first century, "it is the last time ...we know that it is the last time" (1 John 2:18) we can't simply say that was wishful thinking. It WAS the last time. The question then becomes, what did John mean by that statement.
The same follows for other first century writers of Scripture:
Peter,"The end of all things is at hand" (1 Pet. 4:7)
Paul, "They are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the world have come" (1 Cor. 10:11)
James, "The coming of the Lord draweth nigh" (James 5:8)
The author of Hebrews, "NOW once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself"(Heb. 9:26)
and "Yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb.10;37)
Jesus himself talks of his coming judgment and notes the timing that "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mat 24:34)
Revelation opens and closes with a prophecy of soon fulfillment (1:3 & 22:12) and it says that those who pierced him would see him come in judgment (1:7), a direct fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy at His trial (Mat. 26:64)

If they were ALL WRONG about this, then they have shown themselves to be unreliable prophets.
But of course they were NOT wrong, it's just that many Christians have misunderstood their words.

I think a lot of the confusion comes with our modern presupposed definitions of words like "world" and "earth". We automatically apply them to the entire planet earth. Something that is not consistently done in the New Testament. We're also predisposed to assume that any mention of a "coming" of Christ must be His final advent. But that term is used of a coming in judgment on a particular people in the Old Testament, and I believe that is also it's use in these passages.

The reliability of the scriptural writers is at stake if we dismiss their predictions of the end as merely opinions or wishful thinking.

In Christ,

Tim

 

Don't know if I can iron out all the details, but basically I believe that most New Testament prophecy (including the majority of Revelation)pointed toward the destruction of Jerusalem and with it the O.T. system.
The physical types, i.e. the temple,the city of Jerusalem, the country of Israel were replaced by better, spiritual realities, i.e. the church, the kingdom of heaven. Hebrews says a lot about this, especially chapter 12:18-29.
Christ's judgment on Israel in the first century foreshadows his ultimate judgment upon the entire world at his final advent.
Rev. 20 indicates a large period of time ("1000 years") passes between Christ's initial victory over Satan's deception of the nations (accomplished when the gospel was preached around the world by the early church) and Satan's final destruction at the end of time. Shortly before that final judgment, Satan is given greater freedom to again deceive the nations, a time we may or may not have entered into already.
This is basically an amillenial partial-preterist view.

 

Just jumping in here:

What about the physical country of Israel which is alive today? What about Israel becoming a nation again after all these many centuries of dispersion? What about "this generation shall not pass away?" spoken by Jesus Christ & the fig leaves?

What about the literal plans for rebuilding Solomon's Temple? What about breeding a kosher red heifer (last year, finally) so that sacrifices can be reinstituted in the Temple when built again?

What about One World Government, the Anti-Christ, mark of the beast, great harlot, and all the rest? Those aren't literal?

http://www.templeinstitute.org/current-events/RedHeifer/

http://www.templemount.org

http://www.templemountfaithful.org

And when were the 2 prophets slain in the streets of Jerusalem to lie there dead for 3 days while the WHOLE WORLD sees them & exchanges presents, and then they are raised from the dead? They had CNN back then? Oh my.

And what about all the end-time prophecies being fulfilled right before our eyes?

And when did the Great Tribulation take place?

My friend, the book of Revelation is both literal and figurative.

And what about the 70 weeks of Daniel?

And what about the instruction to "seal up the book" which explains why End Time Prophecy has not been understood until these recent times, the times when it is all coming to pass?

Oh my. Oh my.

Listening for that Sweet Trumpet Sound! Any day now, we'll be going Home!

Even so, Come, Lord Jesus!

 

For what its worth I don't think Revelation is that tough at all, neither is Daniel for that matter. I've done a series of sermons on Revelation, chapter by chapter. We are now on 17, no-one has shown any confusion yet.

With regard to the Anti-Christ: He is yet future but you need to be careful not to confuse him with the Beast from the Sea (Rev 13). The anti-Christ will be Jewish. The 'World Ruler' is not.

The Left Behind series is a mixed blessing. LaHaye has pretty standard theology and there are not many things he says that are wrong. He also has published a couple of books explaining the exact theology behind the words.

My big issue is not with regard to what he actually says but with regard to the implication that some of those 'left behind' become Christians. They, of course, do not. The deal during the tribulation is the same as the Old Testament. They effectively can become proselyte Jews.

Rather than take up screen real estate: for anyone interested I have 30+ essays and sermons on Revelation and Daniel at

www.bible-exposition.org

Yours in Christ

David A Bayliss

 

Obviuosly I'm in the minority here, but I hope you don't mind my giving some biblical responses to these questions that probably seem so obvious to you:
1.What about the physical country of Israel which is alive today?
The country of Israel today is a political friend of ours, but it is no friend to Christianity, and hasn't ever been in it's modern form. It actively attempts to suppress the spread of Christianity. This doesn't fit the O.T. prophecies of the rebirth of Israel as a nation seeking after God.
2.What about Israel becoming a nation again after all these many centuries of dispersion?
Granted, it's an unusual political event, but if you trace the history of it, it was primarily a self-fulfilling prophecy of Prime Minister Balfour (a dispensationalist) and his Zionist friends. They built on the tremendous sympathy for the Jewish people which appropriately arose after the horrrors of World War II and convinced the UN to mandate it.
The O.T. prophecies you're likely thinking of were made BEFORE Israel was regathered from dispersion in Babylon. Those prophecies were fulfilled fittingly. Israel regathered as a repentant nation after the decree of Cyrus, under the leadership of Ezra and Nehemiah.
3.What about "this generation shall not pass away?" spoken by Jesus Christ & the fig leaves?
Scofield and his followers have clearly reinterpreted these statements to fit their prophetic model. The clear sense of these prophecies relate to Jesus' own generation--a generation that was beginning to see the signs he spoke of, and would ultimately face divine judgment (within that generation).

4.What about the literal plans for rebuilding Solomon's Temple?
Of course the Jews want to rebuild the temple, it's the focus of their Christless form of worship. But if they ever do build it, it will be nothing more than a physical structure. It will not be God's house. Believers are the temple of God. Jesus declared the temple desolate in his own time. He also said that true worshippers would not need a particular destination for worship.
As far as I can tell, the only reason Christians today are excited about a temple rebuilding is the common belief that it is forecast in Daniel's prophecy. More on that below.
5. What about breeding a kosher red heifer (last year, finally) so that sacrifices can be reinstituted in the Temple when built again?
What an offense that would be in the eyes of God Almighty! "For by one offering [Christ] has perfected forever them that are sanctified."(Heb. 10:14). No wonder He had the temple destroyed in the first century, they were still offering sacrifices after the ONE SACRIFICE was made.

6. What about One World Government, the Anti-Christ, mark of the beast, great harlot, and all the rest? Those aren't literal?
Daniel talks about the coming "one-world government". He very particulary tells when it was coming-and it came right on schedule. It was the Roman empire--not an imagined Restored Roman Empire, but the real (literal) one.
Unbelieving Christ-rejecting Israel of the first century was most likely the great "harlot". That's why there are so many prophecies in the New Testament foretelling of it's destruction at the hands of the Roman army.
7. And when were the 2 prophets slain in the streets of Jerusalem to lie there dead for 3 days while the WHOLE WORLD sees them & exchanges presents, and then they are raised from the dead? They had CNN back then? Oh my.
I think I dealt with our modern misunderstanding of the term "world" in my last post. The New testament often seems to apply it to the Jewish world.

8. And what about all the end-time prophecies being fulfilled right before our eyes?
I realize that modern-day prophecy promotion is a multi-million dollar business. Far be it from me to go up against all that armed with nothing more than a Bible.

9.And when did the Great Tribulation take place?
The "time of Jacob's trouble" or great tribulation was specific to the Jewish world. It was fulfilled in the horrendous seige and destruction of many cities in Israel, culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Josephus had a lot to say about that in his eyewitness historical accounts.

10. My friend, the book of Revelation is both literal and figurative.
I certainly agree that John introduces the book literally, by saying it wouild be fulfilled shortly after he wrote it and telling us it was told in signs (Rev. 1:1-3)

11. And what about the 70 weeks of Daniel?
I believe in a continious 70 weeks (or 490 years) of Daniel's prophecy. When dispensationalists inserted their gap between the 69th and 70th week, they in essence invalidated the timetable. According to their view, Daniel's weeks are now up to 354 and counting, unless you're using some contrived "prophetic clock".
The prophecy is about Messiah coming to confirm the covenant with his people through the sacrifice of himself, thus the believing remnant of Israel would enter into this New Covenant, apart from the temple and it's sacrificial system.
We could go through the grammar and context verse by verse if you are interested.
12. And what about the instruction to "seal up the book" which explains why End Time Prophecy has not been understood until these recent times, the times when it is all coming to pass?
Daniel was instructed to seal up his prophecy because it wasn't to be fulfilled for about 500 years (Dan. 12:9). John, on the other hand, was told NOT to seal up his prophecy (Rev. 22:10) because it was about to be fulfilled.

13. Oh my. Oh my.
I sympathize with your feelings. It was very difficult for me to reexamine Biblical prophecy in the face of all the modern onslaught of teaching which predisposed me to think of it in a certain way. But when New Testament theology doesn't match Modern-day prophecy, something's got to go. And I know it's not easy.

In Christ,
Tim

 

Tim, do you have proof of this?

On the contrary, actively "suppressing the spread of Christianity" would be counterproductive. The greatest industry Israel has is tourism from Christians all over the globe who visit the Holy Land. Because of the past couple of years and the infatada, that industry had suffered. The Israeli government encourages Christians to come to the Holy Land.

Not only that, it has been reported that the IDF is now taking their oath on the New Testament. I'll get you the link if you need one.

What proof do you have that Israel is suppressing Christianity? Palestinians are. But not the Israeli government.

I will address each of your points as you respond with proof.

BTW, sounds like you have subscribed to "replacement theology." There was a thread on "replacement theology" on the Fundy Forum below a few months back. IMO, replacement theology is just a fancy phrase for anti-semitism.

http://www.biblicist.org/bible/replace.htm

Another link about the flaws in replacement theology:

http://www.loriswebs.com/endtimeprophets/replace.html

[ February 16, 2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: SheEagle9/11 ]

 

Please keep in mind that name-calling is not an effective rebuttal. Replacement theology is NOT anti-semetic, it is simply not Zionist. It is pro-Church!

Israel has had legislation under consideration for years that would ban the spreading of Christianity by missionaries amoung Jews in Israel. Orthodox Jews want to see it enacted, but moderates know that it would be bad PR. This has been a matter of prayer discussed even in Messianic publications. Additionally, In this country Jews for Jesus has been under attack for its evangelistic efforts among Jews in New York.

Simply put, Judaism is not sympathetic to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. Personally, we had a Jewish girl come to our Bible study, because she wanted to learn about Christianity. Her father forbid her from returning, lest she be disinherited.

Furthermore, I'm very familiar with the outrageous critiques that Dispensational groups have of what was the standard pre-Scofield understanding of Israel and the Church. I was personally slandered by such a group myself.

I also know that Dispensational authors do the bait-and-switch with church history, equating premillenialism with dispensationalism. But there is absolutely no church "father" or other early Christian writer who did not believe that the (Jewish and Gentile)Church was the replacement for the old nation of Israel. Justin Martyr wrote very strongly on this point, as well as others. Before Darby came up with the idea of Israel's unfulfilled prophecies in the 1850's, there is absolutely no record of it.

Antway, I'll patiently await some debate on the theological issues at hand.

In Christ,
Tim

 

Except you didn't give Biblical responses - no Scriptures, just your interpretations & opinions.

I don't dispute the offense. I think you are confusing offense with Biblical prophecy here. The fact that it is an offense has nothing to do with the fact of the prophetic rebuiding of the temple and offering of sacrifices. They are two different issues.

Okay, let's suppose "world" means Jewish world alone. Then still, where is it recorded the two witnesses were slain and lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem & were raised from the dead, when exactly did this happen?

You have no better response? I have a Bible, too, KJV, in which I've studied end-time prophecy for over 40 years. Before Hal Lindsay or Left Behind or any of the current things. And after studying for lo these many years, comparing Scripture with Scripture, OT & NT, the only logical conclusion is that not all end-time prophecy is fulfilled.

BTW, when did you say the Anti-Christ came to power and everyone took the mark 666?

Agreed. But I didn't call you names. I stated that replacement theology is anti-semitic. Unfortunately, it also keeps company with the likes of David Duke, Islamic Fundamentalists, and those who are pro-Palestine.

BTW, I did look up the issue about Jews for Jesus on Google. I also looked up the opposing view. That is going on here, but could you please post credible links that Jews hate Christians in Israel? I am in communication with several Christian groups who operate ministry from Israel, and have never read anything about this in any of their newsletters.

One of these would be www.foi.org


Also, please see this news item with a quote from Israeli leader, Benjamin Netanyahu:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000715;p=1#000000

You cannot be pro-church without being pro-Israel, friend. Jesus Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The apostles were Jews (specifically from the tribe of Benjamin). The early Church was comprised mainly of Jews.

God has not fulfilled all of His promises or dealings with the Nation of Israel. The Church, His Bride, was GRAFTED IN, not a REPLACEMENT. There is much yet to come, including the day when Jesus, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, sits again on the Throne of David at Jerusalem and rules & reigns for 1000 years with a rod of iron (according to Prophecy).

But, Tim, since you believe in replacement theology and I do not, we are at an impasse. Because it would seem that one's position on that issue would have a bearing on one's views of end-time prophecy. So I had best opt out of this discussion (I did say I was just jumping in), because I don't think further debate among the two of us would be edifying.

On last question, though. When and where did the 144,000 (12,000 of each tribe of Israel) take place?

Your Friend,
SheEagle, Redeemed by the Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ AND a Zionist!

[ February 17, 2003, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: SheEagle9/11 ]

 

This is an interesting study. I have always been taught pre-mil./dispens. so it is all I ever knew. I have recently been exposed to other views reguarding Daniel and the Olivet Discourse. I found them pretty convincing but still have many unanswered questions reguarding statements in the Book of Revelation. Here is a link if anyone is intrested in listening to an alternative view that is heavy based in scripture. Hit audio sermons then scroll down to Escatology.

http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/

 

Alex, for years many Bible scholars have taught the anti-Christ would be a Jew. In light of recent events, I have come to believe the anti-Christ could very well be from the line of Ishmael. Others I've talked to seem to be leaning towards this, as well. Remembering, he will be the one who will finally negotiate the Mid-East peace and then turn against Israel at the 3-1/2 year mark.

When you think about it, it only makes sense. The Promise was given to Abraham through Isaac. Jesus Christ came through the seed of the Promise Line. It makes sense that the anti-Christ would come through the other line.

Though only time will tell. I don't plan on being here when he is revealed, (trumpet sound), but do believe he is alive on this earth at this very moment.

 

No he isn't. Look at Revelation 13. There are two beasts. The two beasts with Satan form a counterfeit trinity.

If you confuse the anti-Christ with the world ruler you will get yourself in a complete pickle.

If you're interested I have a number of essays upon this (under Daniel and Revelation) at

www.bible-exposition.org

DAB

 

I didn't say they couldn't be saved; I said they couldn't become Christians.

Look at Rev 6 (seal 5) and Rev 7. Rev 7 answers the question 'who is able to stand' asked at the end of Rev 6.

People -are- saved during the tribulation but they are saved under the 'Old Testament' economy; they are not part of the church.

HTH

DAB

 

"You cannot be pro-church without being pro-Israel, friend. Jesus Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The apostles were Jews (specifically from the tribe of Benjamin). The early Church was comprised mainly of Jews."

This quote demonstrates the crux of the dispensational misunderstanding about Israel and the church. Of course Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish, that's how the promises to Israel were carried through-to the faithful remnant of Israel, just like all the O.T. prophecies say.

There is nothing anti-semetic about this. I simply hold to the centuries-long-held view that the church-comprised of BELIEVING Jews and Gentiles are now God's chosen people, His temple, his nation. These things are all clearly taught in the New Testament.

It is UNBELIVING Israel that lost it's priveledged position when Christ came, i.e. "They are not all Israel which are of Israel"

Christ is the crux of the matter, not one's ethnic heritage, i.e. "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" in Christ.

Jews, just like any other people are lost without Christ. How chosen can that be?

The church is God's eternal people (Eph. 3:21)

Don't let a particular prophetic view let you ignore clear New Testament theology.

In Christ,

Tim

 

Tim, we have hijacked poor Alex's thread long enough, so I started a new one re: replacement theology. It is here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=002312

 

Hi, David. I checked out your website.

You said, "No he isn't. Look at Revelation 13. There are two beasts. The two beasts with Satan form a counterfeit trinity."

Correct. One is the Anti-Christ, one is the False Prophet. The third of the anti-God head is Satan.

You said, "If you confuse the anti-Christ with the world ruler you will get yourself in a complete pickle."

How so? The Anti-Christ will conquer the world by force or manipulation, however, to achieve his One World Government. The process is already in place through the cooperation of the United Nations (goal of "global governance") also see: http://www.getusout.org/un/ , the EU, the Quartet, along with International Bankers and for the "mark" of the beast, where one can't buy or sell without the mark in the hand or forehead. The ground work is already in place for such a day for all of this to happen...and soon.

The False Prophet will be the Leader of the One World Religion, probably a combination of Islam, Roman Catholic Church, and Ecumenical Church to form a One World Religion. Not forgetting the seat of this "religion" will be the city set on 7 hills. Probably Rome. Just a few years ago, a huge mosque was built not far from Vatican City. The pope has been visiting mosques, hindu shrines, etc., all over the globe the past few years. But the ultimate aim of this One World Religion will be to worship the Anti-Christ.

When the Arab nations are all set to invade Israel, the anti-Christ will come on the scene and negotiate the peace settlement to last for 7 years. This will take care of the Mid-East Palestinian/Israel crisis which has been going on for these many years. This anti-Christ will be acclaimed world wide as the greatest international leader the world has ever known. The world capital will be proclaimed to be Jerusalem. And in the middle of the 3-1/2 years, the anti-Christ will turn against Israel.

Here's a great site about this I found, web page of a Southern Baptist pastor, with all of this in chronological detail. I haven't read every page on his site but from what I have read so far, I am nearly 100% in agreement with his views of End-Time Prophecy.

http://www.calvaryprophecy.com/articles.html

 

Good idea. I'll shift over to your new one.