Tounges.

Let me see if I understand something.
Certain events happened in the first century.
Some are listed as this:

AC 8:[5] Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Christ there. [6] When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. [7] With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed. [8] So there was great joy in that city.

If I understand correctly, what Philip did was great.
But if the same were to happen today, it would be of the devil, or a type of Christianity that would be totally suspect? Is this a correct understanding of those who hold to cessationism?

Originally posted by qwerty:

But if the same were to happen today,

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But it's not.

~Lorelei

It does happen today.
Do you just deny that it does?

It you open your eyes to see that it does, then how do you classify it? Is it of God? Or is it of the devil?

I think this is a very key point. It is a nice way out to just ignore it, and say that it's not the same.

So if something happens that looks identical to what happened in the first century, specifically as to what Philip did, then what is it?

And your reply is that it doesn't happen?

Originally posted by qwerty:
So if something happens that looks identical to what happened in the first century, specifically as to what Philip did, then what is it?

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As I have stated several times, when someone uses a gift and professes it to be from the Holy Spirit then we must test it, as the Bible commands us to do.

1 John 4:1
4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
NIV

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Upon testing every gift that I have seen and heard about, they do not pass the test. They are not being used in accordance with the scripture, or can not be proven as true and so on and so on.

You ask, "What is it?" Well, It's obviously not from God, so you do the math.

This conversation has stopped being productive since you have offered no proof. Unless you have some solid verifiable proof, I have nothing further to say.

~Lorelei

It is nice when a clarifying point comes out.

You said:
"Upon testing every gift that I have seen and heard about, they do not pass the test."

Who is the judge here? You. Your knowledge of scripture. Your experience.

Fortunately, it is not about me, or about you. It is about God, and His plan for His Kingdom. It is about the Lord Jesus, the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. It is about the Holy Spirit, and what His work is as defined in 1 Cor. 12.

You have struck the definitive chord here.

You wrote:
“Well, It's obviously not from God,”

This is an issue that Jesus had with the religious leaders of His day. They attributed the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil. Jesus was not very happy about that. He is the Just Judge, and will judge each one according to His Holiness. Only He knows that thoughts and intents of our hearts. But I am much more careful now to say that things are not of God.

(Cessationists) "Christians do not believe in the miraculous gifts of the Spirit because the Scriptures teach these gifts have passed away.
Rather they disbelieve in the miraculous gifts of the Spirit because they have not experienced them." quote from Jack Deere

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders

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If you accept all miracles without testing them according to the scriptures, how will you ever tell the difference?

2 Corinthians 11:13
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." Quote from God.

~Lorelei

Originally posted by Ben W:
Artimaeus,

The idea was to have a discussion, not a crusade to push views onto another poster.

You have posted about people being blind. Dont you consider that you are being disrespectful to people that have another view to yourself. All that does is ultimatley nullify your own view.

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Ben, I am sorry that my post led you to believe that I was being disrespectful to you, I had no such intent. My entire purpose was to commend Lorelei on her postings. I thought this was one of the most reasonable, respectful, and interestinjg "discussions" I have read here. I am legally blind and have been all my life so, I know whereof I speak. The quote was an expression meaning that if a person does not "see" a point, it is usually for a reason and that reason could be stopping them from "seeing" the truth. I do not apologize for disagreeing, disagreeing is not disrespectful. The "blinddess" is just for this one point and not for the entire sum of a person's existance. Chill, Dude

You wrote:
"If you accept all miracles without testing them according to the scriptures, how will you ever tell the difference?"

Whoever said that you don't test?
But after you test, how do you know if it was of God, or not?
You are very correct. False miracles will be done in the future. They have been done in the past. Ever read about Moses, and the miracles he did in Egypt. Ever read about the false miracles that the magicians in Egypt did, that matched Moses miracle for miracle. Only they couldn't match them all. When the first born died, they found out that they didn't want to go any further.

You might want to read the Gospels, and see how religious people in the day of Jesus responded to the MOST PURE MINISTRY OF GOD THAT WAS EVER ON THE EARTH. Jesus performed signs and wonders, and guess what? Who did some of the religous leaders say was behind His work?

MK 3:22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."

But Jesus had a response for them.

MK 3:23 So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? [24] If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. [25] If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. [26] And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. [27] In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. [28] I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. [29] But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

So, after you test the work, how do you know if it is of God? And this goes for any work that people call Christian.

What is the fruit of the work that is supposed to have been done for God? That is, what happens afterward? Does a person receive all the credit and glory?
Or, does the person doing the ministry give the glory and credit to God? Does the person receiving the ministry of the Holy Spirit love Jesus more? Has the Kingdom of God increased?

If we only look at the work itself, we cannot know if it was of God or not. If we look at the person doing the work today, we cannot know if it was of God or not. Satan can do miracles. People can deceive us. But the True and Living God never lies, and does not deceive His children.

What kind of fruit can we see of a true work of God.

1.Jesus is honored. This is the key test. Jesus is “before all things, and by Him all things consist.” Jesus has been given the Name that is above every name, and it is at the Name of Jesus that every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER!

2.The fruit of the Holy Spirit will be visible, especially love.

3.There will be gratitude and praise to God, knowing that it is only He was has the power to truly transform our lives, and cause us to be like Jesus, and to bring us into His presence with great joy.

4.In many occasions, forgiveness will be evident. Because often those who need healing or ministry are angry and bitter. Often, when people forgive, many physical problems go away. This is a wonderful ministry in and of itself, showing people how to forgive and be forgiven.

5.Relationship will often be restored, with God, and with other people.

These are a few of the fruit that will happen. We need to test, and then we need to look for the fruit.

You can make all the lists you want, the fact remains you are judging them based upon your list and not on what the Lord teaches about them.

I stand by what I have said.

Matt 7:22
2 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
NIV

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And Jesus will tell them depart, I never knew you.

~Lorelei