Tounges.

Fabulous! I LOVE having a clean mouth! 8oD

 

Lorelei,
You are correct in that in chapters 12-14 Paul is speaking of spiritual gifts. The "more excellent way" Paul wishes to show us is that through love we can exercise these spiritual gifts. This is the purpose of chapter 13 and the context is love being our primary motive in the exercise of these gifts. In this I think we agree.

I guess I did a poor job explaining my views of verse 9. IMO when Paul said "We know in part" he meant our knowledge of love is limited in comparison with God's great love.

We agree that spiritual gifts will no longer be needed when "That which is perfect is come", but we differ on what "That which is perfect" means. To me, it is inconceivable that Paul would write these beautiful and meaningful words concerning love and suddenly alter his thoughts and talk about the scriptures and then come back to love in the last verse.

I still maintain that Paul meant love was that perfect thing yet to come. The imperfect love that Paul knew and that you and I know remains, but when Jesus returns then the imperfect love that we only know in part will be done away with and we will have knowledge of God's perfect love.

God bless. I enjoy exchanging views with you.

 

How do we know for certain that the OT prophecies were really about Jesus?

The answer, because He fulfilled them. It isn't until prophecies are fulfilled that they really make sense.

This passage makes more sense now that we have the completed scriptures. It is evident that the miraculous gifts are not around anymore, and when we look at the reasoning behind it we can see why.

The miraculous gifts were never promised to remain, we are told by Paul that gifts were given as God chose to give them. It never promised that all gifts were for all times.

The miraculous gifts were for a purpose. As we have discussed many times, tongues were for a sign to the Jews, to show them that the Spirit was indeed from God and that even the Gentiles received it.

The miracles and gifts were a sign to testify to Christ's salvation and the Spirit indwelling man for the first time.

The gifts were necessary, there was no written text to guide us in how to walk according to this new covenant. But as the authors of the NT began to record it, the signs began to decrease. They fulfilled prophecy and still Isreal didn't repent. They fulfilled their purpose, people understood the Spirit would indwell anyone from any nation if they accepted Christ.

Church history reveals no apparant evidence that these signs continued. Today we don't see any of the signs that are actually administered according to the Word of God. Paul not only spoke in tongues, he healed people, lived after being bitten after a poisonous snake and even raised a person from the dead. No one does any of these things today. If they did you would hear about it. Everyone heard about it back then and they didn't even have cable!

We also have the warning signs to think about too. Think about what the false prophets and anti-christ will do to deceive. They will preform signs and miracles so powerful it would deceive the elect if possible. Now if these miracles can only come from God how can they do this?

Answer, because after the record of the New Testament these signs and wonders ceased. Now all we have are false signs and wonders that aren't from God. They are paving the way for the miracles that WILL make us stand back in awe. Then people will continue to say, see...the gifts are still with us! But they will be deceived, many already are.

Just because someone says they are spiritual gifts does not make it so. Tongues spoken without understanding can not be proven. Tongues spoken outside of the commands of the Lord written by Paul are not valid. Tongues (as many use them today) are already spoken by pagan religions. Tongues was only one of the spiritual gifts yet it appears to be the only one focused on. God gave many gifts, the fact that so many people profess this same one should illustrate another point that contradicts 1 Corinthians 12.

How do we know for certain? Because we have rightly divided the Word of God and see no evidence that they are still around. We look at the whole of scripture and see what their purpose was. We also see that the Bible tells us to test the spirits not trust them. The Bible tells us that even then the Corinthians were accepting another spirit and gospel.

The so called signs practiced today can not be proven to be in accordance with the Word. We are warned of such counterfeits.

You can't just say I do it, so it must be from God, that is not biblical. No one today that has preformed any of these gifts have stood up against what the Bible really teaches about them.

~Lorelei

 

Doc,

I too appreciate the exchange. I just don't see him talking about two kinds of love here. He says in verse 8 Love never fails. He then talks about things that will fail and lets us know that there will come a time when those things will be replaced with something more perfect, but love always remains and is the greatest of what remains.

But we know where each other stands, I respect your right to see it this way.

~Lorelei

 

Ben, while you're considering it, look at what exactly was said about the apostles at Pentecost:

Acts 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

The men asking this question apparently had no doubts that the apostles were speaking in "unknown" tongues (languages not familiar to them).

 

For those who do not think the gifts are for our time:
Have you EVER seen what you would consider a valid expression of a Holy Spirit given gift (as listed in 1 Cor. 12), and this gift was used by a MATURE Christian to do something Holy and Godly for the Kingdom of God?

The Lord Jesus, when He was on earth, used this model:
1. Do the work, while the disciples watched
2. Teach them how to do the work
3. Watch while the disciples did the work
4. Send the disciples out to do the work

Matt 10: [7] As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.' [8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. [9] Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; [10] take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.

One key component of the Great Commandment that is often overlooked and ignored is this:
Matt 28: [20] and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

If you say that the gifts are not for today, without ever seeing a MATURE Christian use the gifts given to them for the RIGHT (Kingdom) purposes, then you are arguing from silence, and ignorance. You may be comforted by your theology of cessationism, but there are those who continue to follow the model that Jesus gave; which is:
Do the work, and teach others to do the work.

 

No, it doesn't say specifically perfect canon of scripture. Many of the prophecies about Christ, didn't say Jesus Christ who will be born on such and such a date either, but upon their fulfillment we see that indeed that is what they were speaking to.

I have not neglected answering this question, rather I gave a rather lengthy post explaining how the evidence points to it. Whether or not you agree is not the issue. At least acknowledge that I have tried to explain my belief.

It appears to me you have paid little or not attention to the verses that I have quoted, for most of them have been from the NIV. The only reason I sometimes quote the KJV is when I think the person I am discussing with uses the KJV. I don't want their response to be one such as yours, blaming it on translation error rather than the context of the passage.

For the record, my preferred version is NIV. Whenever a passage of text comes into question I quickly look it up in the KJV as well, sometimes the NASB and others. Then I go to the source, the interlinear that shows what the original texts really say. I look at both the Nestle and the Textus Receptus. So please, don't try to categorize me, you obviously are not as observant as you claim to be.

Do you feel the New Testament is valid, yes or no?

The verses that say all scripture is inspired, do you believe them to mean only the OT?

I have made my case above and offered scriptures that support it. If you don't agree, that is fine. I simply wanted to state the truth so others can make a judgement for themselves.

I have tested my doctrine, as the Bible tells us we should do, have you tested yours?

Re read my statement, this is not true. I said it was over if you said the Bible was in error. I am not referring to the versions, but the original texts.

I do stand by my statement, if you can brush off any disagreement as simply, sometimes the Bible is wrong, then there is no reason to believe it at all.

I have shown statements such as this one that proclaim the the New Testament writers and apostles words were confirmed by God. If you choose to not believe it that is your option.

As for the KJV only statement, you are shouting to the wrong crowd. I think KJVonlyism is nonsense. No version is perfect, but there must be a source that is, or else we have nothing valid to stand on. That source is the original texts.

I have no problem disagreeing with you, I disagree with too many people on this board to let one more bother me.

What does bother me is the fact that you have assumed me to be something I am not, so you have not properly addressed my arguments or given them a fair chance. You have "blown" them off as KJVonly extremism when that is not the case.

~Lorelei

 

See what happens when we take things out of context, now you are telling the Jews to not bring their message to the Gentiles!

For in this command you seem to think is to all of us today Jesus clearly said.

Without looking at the context you will never see the truth. I suggest you throw all you have been taught and sit down with the Bible and just read it through, in context.

~Lorelei

 

Lorelei,
Definitely a light hearted moment!
No, of course I will not throw out what I have been taught. It is the basis for the practice of my faith. I don't just talk about this, I do it.
And I do it to the Glory of the Lord Jesus Christ!

If you ever get around to it, let me and others who are asking know how you know that the perfect is the written Scriptures. Do you think the Apostle Paul was aware of your viewpoint when he wrote those words?

 

Therein lies your problem, you are relying on what you have been taught rather than by what the Bible really says about it. Doing something contradictory to the Bible does not glorify the Lord.

If you are going to ignore each of my posts, this converstation is pointless.

If you ever get around to it, prove your case and show me a valid, provable example of someone being raised from the dead.

~Lorelei

[ January 29, 2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

You are correct.
This conversation is pointless.
We will never come to agreement.

You believe that the definition of “perfect” is the Scriptures, But you won’t let me or anyone else know how you know that. The Scriptures do not make that claim. I do understand that your belief in this point is a fundamental and foundational issue for your belief in the doctrine of cessationism, which is also non-Biblical.

You also fail to address the issue of the Holy Spirit.
I have never read or heard a cessationist give an honest look at the scripture:

1 Cor. 12:11 All these (the gifts) are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Do you agree with this scripture?
Paul said that the gifts are the “work” of the Holy Spirit. Do you agree with this?
Paul said that the Holy Spirit gives gifts “to each one, just as He determines.” Do you agree with this?
If the Holy Spirit has stopped doing this, where does it say so in Scripture? I guess I should expect the same old tired answer that the “perfect” is the Scripture, so the Holy Spirit doesn’t have this in His job description any more. But I know that neither the Father or the Son have communicated to the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit does not have this “work” to do any more.

So, yes, you are absolutely correct, that we will never come to agreement, because we differ on points that are incredibly fundamental. My practice is consistent with those of the early followers of Jesus. They believed that the gifts were for the First Century church. I believe that the same Holy Spirit still administers the gifts today, “just as He determines.” And guess what? The gifts function today just like they did in the first century, because it is the same Holy Spirit Who is administrating the gifts.

You want 100 percent healing and 100 percent miracles. But the scriptures don’t show that is what is possible in all cases for disciples of Jesus. Paul told Timothy to drink wine for Timothy’s stomach problems. Paul also left a person sick. So even an apostle did not have 100 percent healing. James writes that the sick are to call on the elders of the church to pray for them. Do you even allow for this?

 

We do believe this, in fact it is very relevant to our stand. He gives the gift as HE determines. Show me one scripture that guarantess that all gifts will be given to all men in all ages. There is none.

He gives the gifts to men as HE determines, for HIS own purpose. We believe that he isn't giving the miraculous gifts today because HE has determined not to do so.

This is where you are wrong. They are not functioning today as they did back then and that is one indicator that they have ceased. You have yet to show me one just one gift that has been practiced in accordance with the way the Word of God portrays them. You act as if I expect all people to be healed at all times, and that is not the case. What I would expect to see is just one time where it did indeed happen by a person gifted with it, and I have not.

If these gifts were administered by the same Holy Spirit, you wouldn't have gifts similiar in title but different in practice, you would have gifts that would reveal the true power of the Holy Spirit.

In the New Testament, when the Holy Spirit empowered someone with a miraculous gift, people were not impressed, they were amazed. People were not merely excited they became active. When the Holy Spirit really works a miracle, you don't have hunt and dig to find an example of His wonder working power, it is clear, it is evident and everyone knows about. People either embrace it, or try to kill in order to stop it, but either way, the whole world knows about it.

You are the one limiting the power of the Holy Spirit by trying to say that He is responsible for these pitiful imitations of His real and living Power.

~Lorelei

 

You wrote:
You are the one limiting the power of the Holy Spirit by trying to say that He is responsible for these pitiful imitations of His real and living Power.

Not so. Incredibly NOT SO!

Not in any place have you see me attribute "pitiful imitations" to the real thing. I do understand where you are coming from, though. I used to believe what you believe, but probably more zealously.

It was when I saw mature followers of Jesus using the gifts properly that changed my thinking.

Read Acts 8.
I think the problem may be that there are many who have never seen "Philip" the Evangelist.

AC 8:4 Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. [5] Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Christ there. [6] When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. [7] With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed. [8] So there was great joy in that city.

All that many have seen is Simon the sorcerer.

AC 8:9 Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, [10] and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, "This man is the divine power known as the Great Power." [11] They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic.

Even after Simon was saved, he still had an old life-style to confront, and he didn't do it very well. Simon may have continued with some of his old ways, and deceived some, and turned many away.

But, Philip was the authentic, the real, and his motives were pure, and he didn't get a lot of publicity.

There really are those today who are like Philip. They are hidden away. They work for Jesus. They have regular jobs. They do the work of the Kingdom, not for money or publicity, but that the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus may increase. They work with the Holy Spirit, and use wisely what the Holy Spirit gives them.

I hope someday that you and others that believe like you do will get to see the authentic.

I'm glad the false disappoints you. I hope that the true will encourage you, if you allow yourself to see it.
But, it is more fun to participate, then just to watch.

 

LORELEI
Don't think for one second that your posts were in vain because you failed to budge a couple of responders who were in disagreement with you. I, for one, read each of the posts and were amazed are your clarity of thinking and bulls eye responses. I have read pro and con arguments for "gifts" for years from some of the brightest people around and yours was, by far, the best I have ever seen. You did your part and you did it well, you told the truth, it is up to them to "see". There are none so blind as he who will not see"

 

I used to believe what you do, then I read the Bible more thoroughly and in context and changed my views.

~Lorelei

[ January 30, 2003, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

Artimaeus,

Thanks so much for the support, it was truly an encouragement.

~Lorelei

 

I have not been offended by your opposing position, but I can not lightheartedly discuss what I find as a grave error in doctrine. It is not a debatable issue, the work of the Holy Spirit must always be in accordance with His Word. When it is not, one must ask themselves why. It is a serious matter that could effect ones soul eternally.

~Lorelei