4491 churches will ...

greatday, for a Baptist you sure bring up a lot of the (ceased) Pentecostal stuff.

Originally posted by Gunther:
[QB] SBC, I brought up how Warren turned the condemnation of Israel's failure into a promise for the kind of growth that he has come up with. No where in the text does it even hint at what he wants it to say or mean. It isn't a difference of opinion, he is wrong.

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What is the reference for this? Page number, perhaps?

Originally posted by Taufgesinnter:
greatday, for a Baptist you sure bring up a lot of the (ceased) Pentecostal stuff.

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Wake up and smell the roses as it's all in the bible and check out what baptists say and believe:

http://fullgospelbaptist.org/

Originally posted by Gunther:
SBC, I brought up how Warren turned the condemnation of Israel's failure into a promise for the kind of growth that he has come up with. No where in the text does it even hint at what he wants it to say or mean. It isn't a difference of opinion, he is wrong.

Now, you neither offered the correct exegesis or pointed out where mine was wrong. So, I guess it is you who hasn't "dealt" with the issues, whatever that means.

I reject Warren's material because I have seen his interpretation of certain texts to be either incoherent, or a deliberate distortion to justify his position. How good can his stuff be if he can't even get basic exegesis right. Surely with all of your advanced degrees you can put those two thoughts together.

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And I asked for a direct location of where this faulty exegesis can be found, but you have not produced it.

Do you take the same attitude toward Spurgeon who is known for his frequent inadequate exegesis?

http://fullgospelbaptist.org/

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Enough said.

HankD

Easy believism equals cheap grace. It's faith that makes no demands, requires no great lifestyle alterations. It's the pagan Greek idea of faith as intellectual assent to a set of propositions, rather than the Hebrew idea of faith as trusting obedience.

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Thank you for your answer brother Taufgesinnter, but I repeat, believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is the easiest thing I know how to do.

I believe the phrase “easy-believism” is erroneous because it carries a “works” nuance with it in reference to "non-easy believism".

The more scriptural description of what I believe this erroneous phrase is trying to convey is “pretended-believism” or "make-believe faith".

Or in the old English of the KJV “feigned-faith”.

True or unfeigned faith IS easy.

2 Timothy 1
5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

But, as you imply “unfeigned faith” results in practical righteousness and holiness.

So, I believe the root of this error is that the term “easy-believism” does not in and of itself distinguish between salvation and sanctification and could convey a wrong “works” mentality.

Pretended faith is actually the difficult faith because the pretender has to work at being a “believer”.

My opinion, of course.

HankD

Yeah, I agree, it's the faith James warns against, rather than the lordship salvation the Scriptures teach.

Originally posted by Gunther:
Larry, it is not the purposes that are a problem. As you said, others arrived at them long before Warren's book was written. In fact, my pastor (a grad of SWBTS) did a paper on the six purposes of the church (prayer being the one Warren left out). He got an A.

It is the method in which Warren used to accomplish them.

As I pointed out in the fig tree example, if he can twist that into what he did... .

Again, what are people reading? Do they read their bibles? Do their pastors preach anything?

I wonder about the preacher who has to use Warren's book at all. He is so weak in theology. If you have to bring your people up to where Warren's book is, I dunno about the church.

SBC, perhaps your pastor could mix in some theology. Wait, let me guess. Every message is about the pharisees being the religious leaders and Christ condemning rules, and blah, blah, blah.

I could post the quote without identifying the person, but I just spoke with a major mover in the SBC. He expressed much concern with Warren and his tactics. He denounced the lack of quality in it. Basically, he said it was little more than a devotional. How great is that.

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How can so many people come to Christ if the gospel is never given out?

So you spoke with one person. Do me a favor and ask that one person to name how many are living for Jesus Christ who are reproducers. My guess is that the number is the same I hear most of the time.

You mentioned about poor exegesis. I don't even always agree with myself. As I learn more I realize that sometimes what I believed is not what I really believe now.

You wrote in one of your earlier posts, “Basically, here is the point: a pastor (if he is doing his job) should be explaining the Scriptures, teaching his people why a person exists, what they need to be doing, how to overcome sin, how to witness, how to study the Bible, etc.

“PASTOR”! That is the job of every born again believer, not just the pastor.

What methodology are using that is making disciples who are reproducers? I would be interested in knowing what you do.

James 1:22 says, “But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.” If a man is not a doer he is deluded.

Several years ago I was involved in a church replant. It was my first church. The man who was overseeing the work for the convention would visit me about once a month and give me advice. At one time I was having some troubles getting past a certain point. So I gave the man a real situation and asked for his advice. He told me he didn’t know what to do because he had never planted a church. So I asked someone else who had planted two churches. He gave me some answers.

A few years ago I moved and talked with the DOM there. After listening for awhile I asked him where he had pastored. He told me that he had never pastored a church. He had all kinds of ideas fo me to use and no experience in using and perfecting them.

Sometimes the people who have the most concerns are people who sit in judgment with no successful experience.

Gunther I will ask you the same question I asked a young man several years ago that was complaining about how his church did so many things wrong. Who's living for Jesus Christ because of your life? That is the question.

Yeah, I agree, it's the faith James warns against, rather than the lordship salvation the Scriptures teach.

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"Lordship" salvation (so-called) guarantees nothing.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These who claimed Him as Lord had “works” which were both “many” and “wonderful” in their own eyes, but iniquity in His eyes.

John 6
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If faith without works is dead what then are works without faith?

HankD

You agreed with me while seeming to disagree with me. Lordship salvation means that Jesus is Lord, not that He is only claimed as Lord. The example you cited supports biblical, i.e., lordship, salvation. Jesus was making the point that He is not Savior for anyone unless He is also their Lord. Salvation cannot be truthfully claimed by the wilfully disobedient.

Salvation cannot be truthfully claimed by the wilfully disobedient.

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Are these servants of Jesus Christ saved?

KJV Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Were the Corinthians saved who "slept" because they would not judge themselves?

He is not pleased with our sin and if we don't repent it may end in severe chastisement and even physical death as in the local Church at Corinth.

IMO, There is no such thing as "Lordship salvation" as generally defined since no one can tell me that they have TOTALLY surrendered to Jesus Christ. And such is much of the talk and preaching I have heard about Lordship salvation and seems to me to be a gospel of works in disguise.

I had some foolish thoughts about total surrender 40 years ago when I was first saved while serving in the military, but after several shipwrecks of faith I understood just what the lesson was in all my failure and misery.

I believed/believe in Him with all my heart, mind and soul but my greatest sin was that I thought I could "surrender" all.

Psalm 119
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

Is He still our Lord when we look and lust?
(" Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD").

When we are unkind to our spouse?
("And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you").

When we break the speed limit?
("for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil").

When we give with a wrong atitude?
("Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver").

When we pass by an opportunity to witness?
("and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear").

When we don't have family/morning devotions?
("Pray without ceasing.").

When we spend more time on our computer or watching TV than in prayer?
("What, could ye not watch with me one hour?")

Etc, etc, etc...

True Lordship is all of Him and none of miserable me and may take decades of years to realize and it may still may never be learned, ("he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire").

1 John 1:9 is in the present tense.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

HankD