4491 churches will ...

[All about Grace]

If I were to bring up a particular issue that I believe Warren and his cronies violate, it would just be written off as a non-essential or a preference.

That's because most of your issues (actually I can't think of any you have raised right now) are non-essentials and preferences (as demonstrated in the remainder of your post).

There is nothing WRONG with outlining the fact that the church has many purposes:

Which is what Warren has done, so your problem is???

a pastor (if he is doing his job) should be explaining the Scriptures, teaching his people why a person exists, what they need to be doing, how to overcome sin, how to witness, how to study the Bible, etc.

Yes he should. Point

He should not be shelling out that kind of money to get the witless anecdotes of Warren.

And those witless anecdotes would be?

Based upon your "pastor should be teaching these things and not shelling out that kind of money" mentality, we should also eliminate SS literature.

I further question the discernment and theological knowledge of any "pastor" that turns to Warren. Good grief. Has anyone heard this guys presentation of the gospel? How pathetic and inept.

And I seriously question the discernment of any pastor who is not well aware of this revival movement that is sweeping the land.

I have heard Warren's presentation many, many times. I am unsure what is inept and pathetic about his presentation that we are sinners in need of a Savior. I am assuming you are unaware of how many people have come to faith in Christ at Saddleback.

I do come from the expository preaching as primary persuasion. Sort of like MacArthur.

Persuasion is the key word here.

I am glad my pastor hasn't wasted church money on Warren's nonsense.

And I probably should not be wasting my time on yours.

Nice try Gunther but you missed the ball. STRIKE ONE!!!

 

[Gunther]

SBC, you could not defend his methods with the N.T. Hopefully, your exegesis would be better than his.

For example, he insists that when Christ condemned the fig tree for not producing fruit, that that is a guarantee that we will produce fruit.

Now, to him, fruit is equivalent to conversions.

Does this mean that there were no saved people in Israel? Of course not. So what does it mean? Well, I guess interpretation can be set aside for an agenda.

Anyway, to him the church is guaranteed that it would produce fruit, which again is conversions. Now, I agree that given the great commission, the church will see conversions. However, that is not a promise that a local church will ever see "fruit" or specifically that every person will lead someone else to Christ.

Here is where his agenda and method supercede the text.

He teaches that a church must do everything it can to produce the fruit. You are to decide who the target audience is. HELLO! The "target audience" is lost people, not a certain group of lost people - which are no doubt young couples, who are middle class, etc.

Where exactly is he pulling this stuff from, the toilet?

We are to be faithful to preach the gospel. What did Paul say except that one plants, another waters, and GOD BRINGS THE INCREASE.

What a shock. Warren had a theory that he came up with after eating some pizza and then found the text to support it. Classic.

Now, SBC, you say it is just preference and such. That is fine. We owe it to God though to get it right. His theories are built upon that kind of wreckless handling of God'w word.

No, I will stick with N.T. ecclessiology and reject his methods of accomplishing the already agreed upon purposes.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Gunther:
In an unrelated study, 4491 churches have been shown to be theologically inept and lacking in discernment.

For someone who makes such outrageous claims he forgot to analyze a few things. For one Saddleback Community Church is an SBC church. I assume the same convention as First Baptist.

While a large number of SBC churches are either dead or dying in California, Saddleback is growing rapidly. In the area where I live the vast majority of SBC churches have an attendance of about 25 percent of what they did 25 years ago. So if someone has some great ideas and would like to resurect those churches, come!

Rick Warren was compelled to start a church in Lake Forest. Rick came from Ft. Worth with enough money to rent a truck but not enough to pay his first month's rent. But by faith God provided everything. He never asked the SBC or the association for one penny. That's faith! Rick grew up in the home of a pastor. His dad pastored small churches seldom over 50 people. He wanted to be a missionary to Japan, but he had no peace about that instead he started studying about starting a church. IF you ever meet him personally you will see why God has blessed him. He is a person that genuinely cares for people.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Gunther:


For example, he insists that when Christ condemned the fig tree for not producing fruit, that that is a guarantee that we will produce fruit.

Now, to him, fruit is equivalent to conversions.

Anyway, to him the church is guaranteed that it would produce fruit, which again is conversions. Now, I agree that given the great commission, the church will see conversions. However, that is not a promise that a local church will ever see "fruit" or specifically that every person will lead someone else to Christ.

Here is where his agenda and method supercede the text.

He teaches that a church must do everything it can to produce the fruit. You are to decide who the target audience is. HELLO! The "target audience" is lost people, not a certain group of lost people - which are no doubt young couples, who are middle class, etc.

Where exactly is he pulling this stuff from, the toilet?

We are to be faithful to preach the gospel. What did Paul say except that one plants, another waters, and GOD BRINGS THE INCREASE.

What a shock. Warren had a theory that he came up with after eating some pizza and then found the text to support it. Classic.

Now, SBC, you say it is just preference and such. That is fine. We owe it to God though to get it right. His theories are built upon that kind of wreckless handling of God'w word.

No, I will stick with N.T. ecclessiology and reject his methods of accomplishing the already agreed upon purposes.

If one were to peruse the NT he would find that fruit is not just conversions it is disciples. Jesus said, Go and make disciples." He did not say make conversions. Conversions are infants. Disciples are in process of making more disciples. Our churches are filled with unproductive infants who have never led one person to Christ or ever made one disciple.

Jesus said that we are not to cast our pearls before swine.

Matthew 7"5,6, "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Even Jesus mentioned to his disciples that if some place did not receive them they were to shake the dust off their feet. If one reads the following passage in Matthew from the master he will notice the wisdom and specific instructions.

Matthew 10:5-14, "These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. "And as you go, preach, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' "Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give. "Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support. "And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. "As you enter the house, give it your greeting. "If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet."

Jesus told His disciples where to go and where not to go. I trust what Jesus said.

You wrote, "We are to be faithful to preach the gospel. What did Paul say except that one plants, another waters, and GOD BRINGS THE INCREASE."

Absolutely, I agree.

But I have a question; who plants and who waters?

So if you are not diligent to plant and water then you are lazy and have not done all you could.

You wrote, "He teaches that a church must do everything it can to produce the fruit. You are to decide who the target audience is. HELLO!"

I have a question; who plants and who waters the tree? Fruit is a natural by product of a healthy tree.

Fruit doesn't come about by laziness. If there is not planting and watering can there be an increase?

Jesus said, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.

If you are mostly interested in doing research you probably would not do very well in a job that demanded you spend your time as a salesman or some other job employed in interactring with people and be on call 24/7.

Nobody is asking you to accept PDC philosophy. But Jesus did command us to make disciples. So if you are not making disciples then it is time to get busy. Jesus naver said how we were to make disciples. He just said that we were to make disciples. What I may do may not be what another would do. But who am I to criticize another who use a diferent method than I do? The important thing is to make disciples of Jesus Christ.

[ September 18, 2003, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

I am reposting this since Gunther has apparently missed it ... Please answer if you don't mind.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gunther:
In an unrelated study, 4491 churches have been shown to be theologically inept and lacking in discernment.

I am curious ...

Is your complaint that this book teaches that life is not about you and your personal desires but about God and his desires for your life??

Is your complaint that this book teaches that your life should be lived the way that the God who created desired that it should be lived??

Is your complaint that people might spend too much time reflecting on how God's Word affects the way they live??

What exactly is your complaint? </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Gunther:
In an unrelated study, 4491 churches have been shown to be theologically inept and lacking in discernment.

I fogot to mention that Rick Warren claims that 75 percent of the people at Saddleback have come to Christ through the ministry of Saddleback. How many churches can make that claim today? If I remember right Saddleback has planted 39 other churches. How many other churches can make that claim? How many churches can even make a claim that they have planted just one?

I would challenge anyone to take a look at the commitment required just to be a Bible Study leader in the church at Saddleback. I have pastored enough churches to know that Saddleback requires more to be a home Bible study leader than most churches require of its deacons.

 

[Taufgesinnter]

HankD:

Easy believism equals cheap grace. It's faith that makes no demands, requires no great lifestyle alterations. It's the pagan Greek idea of faith as intellectual assent to a set of propositions, rather than the Hebrew idea of faith as trusting obedience.

(I am not accusing Warren of this, so don't get me wrong.)

 

[greatday]

I fogot to mention that Rick Warren claims that 75 percent of the people at Saddleback have come to Christ through the ministry of Saddleback. How many churches can make that claim today? If I remember right Saddleback has planted 39 other churches. How many other churches can make that claim? How many churches can even make a claim that they have planted just one?

In business numbers and proft are very important items but not in the kingdom of God. What counts with God is not how many people came to Christ or started the race but are they obedient to His word and voice or how many will complete the race?

COL 4:14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you.

2TM 4:10 for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica-Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.

 

[All about Grace]

SBC, you could not defend his methods with the N.T. Hopefully, your exegesis would be better than his.

Actually this thread is not in regard to his methods (or Larry and I may not be on the same side of the discussion).

There are two central principles that undergird the entire PDC model, viz., the Great Command and the Great Commission. All five purposes are defined in these two central passages.

For example, he insists that when Christ condemned the fig tree for not producing fruit, that that is a guarantee that we will produce fruit.

You will have to refer me to the exact location of this discussion.

But even if Warren misses it on this text, does that condemn his methods as faulty? Does that undermine the PDC model? Absolutely not. No one gets it right every time when preaching.

He teaches that a church must do everything it can to produce the fruit.

Wrong. Please do not put words in Warren's mouth. It does nothing to advance the conversation. Of course there has been no evidence that you are actually concerned with the facts only your own speculations and what you have heard.

You are to decide who the target audience is. HELLO! The "target audience" is lost people, not a certain group of lost people - which are no doubt young couples, who are middle class, etc.

Again you show your misgivings regarding the PDC model. Warren simply sought to discover who the lost people were in his community. He created a caricature of the people in his culture so that they may know the marks of those with whom they are sharing the gospel. What's wrong with that? We had better know our audience. Contextualization is not just for the foreign mission field.

We are to be faithful to preach the gospel. What did Paul say except that one plants, another waters, and GOD BRINGS THE INCREASE.

Can you please try and make sense of your points? No one is arguing otherwise.

Now, SBC, you say it is just preference and such. That is fine. We owe it to God though to get it right. His theories are built upon that kind of wreckless handling of God'w word.

I think the Great Command and Great Commission are straight forward enough. So I am not sure what kind of "wreckless handling" you are talking about.

No, I will stick with N.T. ecclessiology and reject his methods of accomplishing the already agreed upon purposes.

You are welcome to reject his methods. He makes no attempt to persuade us that his methods are they only right ones (as a matter of fact he does the opposite).

Fill us in on that NT ecclessiology we should all be following.

Please tell us you are not going to try and discredit Warren based upon one textual interpretation disagreement???

Strike TWO!

 

[All about Grace]

In business numbers and proft are very important items but not in the kingdom of God. What counts with God is not how many people came to Christ or started the race but are they obedient to His word and voice or how many will complete the race?

You might want to cut the book of Acts out of your Bible then

Tell me. Do you think it is irrelevant that 75% of Saddleback's members come from salvations and baptisms?

 

[greatday]

Speaking of the book of Acts and numbers the bible records:

ACTS 2:3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

1COR 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

So is the bible exagerating when it says they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance and I wish you all spoke with tongues?

Does the word 'all' means 'all' or in Clintonesque it could mean something else?

Was Apostle Paul right to wish that all spoke with tongues? Were his words inspired of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Gunther]

Thanks for bringing the discussion back to the original topic.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by gb93433:
I fogot to mention that Rick Warren claims that 75 percent of the people at Saddleback have come to Christ through the ministry of Saddleback. How many churches can make that claim today?

I've been to Saddleback. I'd say the 75% estimate is low. It's probably 80% or greater.

 

[Gunther]

Larry, it is not the purposes that are a problem. As you said, others arrived at them long before Warren's book was written. In fact, my pastor (a grad of SWBTS) did a paper on the six purposes of the church (prayer being the one Warren left out). He got an A.

It is the method in which Warren used to accomplish them.

As I pointed out in the fig tree example, if he can twist that into what he did... .

Again, what are people reading? Do they read their bibles? Do their pastors preach anything?

I wonder about the preacher who has to use Warren's book at all. He is so weak in theology. If you have to bring your people up to where Warren's book is, I dunno about the church.

SBC, perhaps your pastor could mix in some theology. Wait, let me guess. Every message is about the pharisees being the religious leaders and Christ condemning rules, and blah, blah, blah.

I could post the quote without identifying the person, but I just spoke with a major mover in the SBC. He expressed much concern with Warren and his tactics. He denounced the lack of quality in it. Basically, he said it was little more than a devotional. How great is that.

 

[All about Grace]

SBC, perhaps your pastor could mix in some theology. Wait, let me guess. Every message is about the pharisees being the religious leaders and Christ condemning rules, and blah, blah, blah.

Actually I am a pastor and I have 2 master's degrees in systematic theology & biblical languages and am a dissertation away from a PhD in NT Theology, languages, and preaching, so your sterotyping falls by the wayside.

Deal with the issues. but then again, you have yet to show you can deal with the issues, so I should expect no different.

I could post the quote without identifying the person, but I just spoke with a major mover in the SBC. He expressed much concern with Warren and his tactics. He denounced the lack of quality in it. Basically, he said it was little more than a devotional. How great is that.

Rest assured I am friends with many of the movers and shakers in the SBC. I have had this discussion on multiple occasions with those who have "concerns" with Warren and others. Most of their concerns are un"warren"ted (pardon the pun). That is fine. It is not the point. You keep going back to methods. This discussion is not about methods. I am willing to discuss the validity of methods if you are, but that is not the point of this thread. Why is that so diffficult for you to grasp?

PDL is definitely not a theologcial treatise. It is not designed to be. It is a DEVOTIONAL that helps people discover and live God's purposes for their life. Warren himself calls it a book to read along with your daily Bible reading.

I can see Gunther that we are talking on two different planes, so until you actually deal with some of the issues at hand instead of sterotyping and generalizing, I am going to assume you simply have no clue as to what you are talking about.

BTW, I will be waiting for the answers to my previous post.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by greatday:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I fogot to mention that Rick Warren claims that 75 percent of the people at Saddleback have come to Christ through the ministry of Saddleback. How many churches can make that claim today? If I remember right Saddleback has planted 39 other churches. How many other churches can make that claim? How many churches can even make a claim that they have planted just one?

In business numbers and proft are very important items but not in the kingdom of God. What counts with God is not how many people came to Christ or started the race but are they obedient to His word and voice or how many will complete the race?

COL 4:14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you.

2TM 4:10 for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica-Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia. </font>[/QUOTE]If you read my earlier posting I wrote, "I would challenge anyone to take a look at the commitment required just to be a Bible Study leader in the church at Saddleback. I have pastored enough churches to know that Saddleback requires more to be a home Bible study leader than most churches require of its deacons."

If numbers are nothing then what are souls? Who were the 4000 in Acts. If numbers are nothing then why the book of numbers with loads of numbers. In most every cases those who claim "numbers are nothing" have few numbers to produce.

In the first church I pastored the numbers were as low as ten. The church lost its pastor and building and had a bad name. With those kind of numbers the people were hurting. With those kind of numbers I trained them to reach people and knock on doors. I personally knocked on 75 to 200 doors each month. We got numbers to disciple. People came to Christ. The church grew. As we discipled the people to become reproducers the numbers grew. As the numbers grew and people discipled others the numbers grew more to the point where the fianances were of sufficient number that the chruch bought 20 acres of prime ground and is building again. So God is blessing with depth and quantity of numbers.

Now try and tell Jesus numbers don't matter. Disciples who are reproducers make disciples who are reproducers which are numbers. We are a result of one of those numbers.

In Mt. 4:19 Jesus said, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Those men are numbers. He didn't say how many, but those are numbers. I have never seen any man who desires to help others grow that isn't leading people to Christ and helping them grow. Have you? Those are numbers.

People reach people. Programs do not reach people. They may facilitate that though. But it takes people to reach people. Those people are numbers who are reaching other people who are numbers.

No numbers means no people. No numbers means ineffectiveness.

Prov. 11:30 says, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who is wise wins souls." That wise person wins souls who are numbers.

I am not talking about numbers at any cost. I am talking about genuinely reaching people and discipling them. I have never seen anyone who truly helps another grow in such a way that they become a reproducer that doesn't ever reach anybody. It may take a longh time but it happens. William Carey took 11 years. A friend of mine was living in a country where it was illegal to witness took one year. Today his ministry has been greatly multiplied because each producer is a reproducer. That's what the gospel of Christ is all about. It is enabling others to live a life in Christ in such a way that they share the good news and train others to live their life in Christ.

The fact is that the majority of Christians sitting in churches today are just pew warmers. They have not ever led anyone to Christ in their lifetime nor have they ever discipled anyone. Some see the church as a social club.

 

[Gunther]

SBC, I brought up how Warren turned the condemnation of Israel's failure into a promise for the kind of growth that he has come up with. No where in the text does it even hint at what he wants it to say or mean. It isn't a difference of opinion, he is wrong.

Now, you neither offered the correct exegesis or pointed out where mine was wrong. So, I guess it is you who hasn't "dealt" with the issues, whatever that means.

I reject Warren's material because I have seen his interpretation of certain texts to be either incoherent, or a deliberate distortion to justify his position. How good can his stuff be if he can't even get basic exegesis right. Surely with all of your advanced degrees you can put those two thoughts together.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Gunther:
(prayer being the one Warren left out

Prayer falls under worship and fellowship, so it is not a sixth purpose but rather a way in which the five are accomplished, IMO. But six purposes of the church are no big deal.

It is the method in which Warren used to accomplish them.

I would agree with you to a large degree, but we are not talking about methods. We are talking about the purpose driven idea.

Again, what are people reading? Do they read their bibles? Do their pastors preach anything?

Can't speak for anyone else, but I teach my people to read the Bible and other things that are worth their time.

I wonder about the preacher who has to use Warren's book at all. He is so weak in theology. If you have to bring your people up to where Warren's book is, I dunno about the church.

Warren's book is not about theology per se (though it cannot be fully divorced from that). I agree that his theology is bad for hte most part, at least what I know about. But this is about philosophy and the purpose driven idea. I have routinely taught my people that form follows function, that what we do is decided by what we want to accomplish. That is purpose driven. I am not trying to bring my people up to Warren's book. I don't even talk about him. I talk about the Scriptures.

 

[greatday]

Now try and tell Jesus numbers don't matter. Disciples who are reproducers make disciples who are reproducers which are numbers. We are a result of one of those numbers.

Let me quote the words of Jesus about the importance of numbers:

MT 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

John 2:23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did.
2:24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 2:25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

SPEAKING OF DISCIPLES WHO ARE REPODUCERS THE BIBLES RECORDS:
ACTS 2:44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 2:45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. 2:46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Since Warren is supposed to be the next best thing to Jesus and his church the greatest thing on earth, it's safe to assume that they are meeting the spiritual, physical and emotional needs of the people, changing the world upside down like the disciples in the book of acts did, healing the sick and casting out Devils like Jesus commanded them in Mark 16, and the Lord is adding to the church daily those who were being saved?

Or is God's word true about Pastor Warren?

EZEK 34:4 "The weak you have not strengthened, nor have you healed those who were sick, nor bound up the broken, nor brought back what was driven away, nor sought what was lost; but with force and cruelty you have ruled them.

Since I don't know the pastor or the church but know the word of God, could you tell if they are doing what the disciples did in the book of Acts?

ACTS 3:6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."

Acts 4:29 "Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word,
4:30 "by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus."
4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

 

[gb93433]

Eighty percent of church members in the average church in America come from other churches. At Saddleback 75 percent come as new believers.