effectual call

It is assured for believers, but it is not optional for those who aren't elect. They do not have a chance. </font>[/QUOTE]It is assured for all who believe and that is the point. The non elect won't believe; they do not want to. Why do you keep ignoring that point? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]So then tell us who the elect are so that we can know whether or not we are supposed to believe or not believe. You do know who the elect are don't you?

 

Jesus also said without him we could do nothing.

Jesus also said that whoever is not with him is against him.

I have not changed anything in scripture, If you don't want to accept the fact that Christ said we could do nothing without him, that is your change, not mine.

Bro. Dallas

 

But we can believe in him and thereby receive power to do the rest, including free will repentence of sin; free will confession of sin; free will submission to the will of God, free will testifying about Jesus, free will worship of God, etc.

It is not necessary to be "elected" to be a believer! ELSE Jesus would have told us!

 

He did this also, he said '...thine are mine, and mine are thine, thine they were; etc. John 17

I know my sheep and they know my voice, they hear me and will follow me. John 10

These are not ambiguous statements.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

When does a sheep become a sheep? After it learns the shepherds voice? (believes) They hear me (believe) and will follow me (the result of belief)

 

Tuor, You are, of course, correct! That is the message.

 

How would I know that?? If you have a desire to come to Christ alone for salvation and you put your faith in him, turning from your sins, then that is evidence that you are of the elect. The knowledge of the elect is part of the secret things of God. We are commanded to preach the gospel to everyone believeing that God is workign through that to call out a people for himself from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. I am fine with that. It gives hope to my preaching.

 

NO, if I come to believe in Jesus, it is not because I am of the elect, it is because I am of the convicted and persuaded. It was given unto me to believe what the Word of God says, and believe in the Son of God. Who gave that to me? God in the creation made man with the ability to believe, I exercised that ability and became a believer in Jesus, the Christ. He, himself convinced me that he is the Son of God, the Messiah. When then should I not believe in him?

 

It need not, but neither situation requires the other.

 

Yes, I believe the elect is Israel!

 

The "elect" are only Israel? How do you deal with Eph. 1 ?

 

A sheep is born a sheep. Really, to be technical, it does not have to believe it is a sheep, because it has the nature of the sheep and the spirit of a sheep.

Bro. Dallas

 

Samuel Ephesians 1:4-8 gives the perspective.

When does one become "in Christ"? When one believes "in Christ".
When and how do we get marked? When we believe we receive the Holy Spirit
What does it mean to be "adopted sons through Jesus Christ? We were orphans and waifs before we believed, so we be come adopted by our belief in God's only son.
When did Jesus blood give us our freedom? when He died upon the cross he established the means, and when we believed we received the reality of that freedom.
Grace showered on us in all wisdom and insight? Jesus is the source of Grace.

The fact that sinful man would be redeemed was planned before the foundation of the world indicates that God knows who will accept his Only Son. It does not mean that we were saved before the foundation, nor were we elected to be redeemed withour our free will choice.

 

You obviously don't read the scripture you post.

According to Eph 1:4,5 we were CHOSEN in Christ before the foundation of the world. Chosen implies the wil of the one choosing, not the will of the one being chosen. Chosen is parallel to predestined in ths passage as well. So the predestination is based on God's choice. Verse 11 also makes this same point.

 

I agree ... but you are convicted and persuaded becuase you are one of teh elect. You say that God gave man the ability to do this in creation but John 6:646-5 clearly says otherwise. The elect are convinced and they believe.

 

Brother Dallas,

You said, 'A sheep is born a sheep.' Cute and cuddly!

Jesus used the typology of sheep and goats. Goats are unbelievers. This does not mean that once a sinner always a sinner. {once a goat always a goat}

Jesus merely meant that God's people are counted as sheep; the lost are looked at as being in the other flock being goats.