Christians can miss the kingdom, and go to hell for 1,000 years

Bart I feel the text you quoted has answered the question. Notice : and they were judged every man according to their works. Does Paul not say "not of works lest any man should boast" If scripture tells me that I cannot be made righteous by my works then surely the verse quoted from Revelation is speaking solely to the lost.</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, Murph, those standing before the Great White Throne will be judged according to their works. But look at this:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Rev 20:12)

And what happens to those who were judged out of the book of life?

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:15)

All non-believers will be condemned to the lake of fire because they are sinners. But the clear implication is that all those whose names are in the book of life (i.e. Christians) will not be. This could be for two possible reasons: 1. Because those judged out of the book of life are judged according to Jesus' works; or 2. because only believers can do works truly pleasing to God. But whatever the reason, if nobody is found in the book of life at the GWT, then verse 15 totally meaningless: the clear implication is that there are some who are found in the book of life. The only reason this is not taught by most premillennailists is that they simply assume that all Christians will reign in the kingdom. However, what happened to the servant who buried his talent in the ground...?

 

Hi ER I agree with you, but I think the problem is that the popular teaching does exaclty this: whenever it sees a passage talking about punishment or kingdom exclusion, then it's always "to the unsaved", or "to the false professers" or "to the Jews", or to anyone as long as it's not us. For example, take the parable in Matt 18:23-35. It is adressed to Peter, in answer to his question about how often he must forgive his brother (verse 21). It is about the kingdom of heaven (verse 23). The "king" must represent God, and so the first servant, whom the king forgives everything, must represent a believer. No unbeliever is forgiven everything by God. Yet that servant does not forgive his brother, and his Lord found out. Then look what happened:

"Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." (Matt 18:32-35)

Remember, this passage (which is about punishment and the kingdom) must be about a forgiven Christian, and it is addressed to a Christian. However, people will squirm every which way to try and take away the application to themselves. But Jesus is clear; and he is clear in many more of his parables, and many more of his direct statements. The rest of the New Testament backs this up.

Your friend and brother,

Bartholomew

 

Hi Bro. Glen,

All that's the only reason we're talking about that passage - simply to show that if a Christian goes to hell it does not mean he is seperated from God.

We agree! And that curse can be carried along into the kingdom...

"Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)

 

I don't agree, Murph. Firstly, what is the point of opening the book of life in verse 15, and then judging people according to the things written in the books, if the book of life has absolutely no relevance to the people being judged? But also, Rev. 20:15 says:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now, what's the point of saying "whosoever" when none of those present will be found in the book of life? The verse does not say, "And all of them were not found in the book of life, and were cast into the lake of fire". The word "whosoever" implies there will be some who are found in the book of life; or that that is at least concievable. This is backed up by other examlples:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." (Matt 5:32)

"Whosoever" implies that it is possibe that some will not do this. It does not mean, "...everyone shall put away his wife... and everyone shall marry her that is divorced..."

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:32)

Again, this does that mean that "...everyone speaketh against the Holy Ghost..."

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:15)

Yet again, there is no implication that "...everyone believeth in him, and should not perish, but have eternal life." There are many other examples...

Conclusion: Whenever we read the word "whosoever", we must assume that it is possible to fall into both catagories, unless the Bible specifically denies this. And since the Bible nowhere denies that Christians can stand before the Great White Throne judgement, then the text of Revelation 20:15 must (as far as I can see) be taken to mean that there will be some found written there. (This is also the most natural reading of the passage).

But finally: even if this passage does not demand that some Christians will face this judgement, it certianly doesn't preclude it; and if it doesn't preclude it, there is no problem in believing the wealth of other sources that teach that Christians can miss the kingdom and be punished in hell.

 

Yes, I am.

"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:15)

Notice that "the just" are included in "the dead" just as much as "the unjust" are. There are other examples of places believers are described as "dead" (e.g. Acts 20:9, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:16). So how do we reconcile this with Ephesians 2? Simple. Ephesians 2 is talking about spiritual death; but Revelation 20 is talking about physical death (one can be dead in one of these senses and not the other). This is proven from Rev 20:4&5:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

The phrase "the rest of the dead" implies those being talked about (i.e. those who have part in the first ressurection) were dead themselves immediately prior to this ressurection. So if the Christians who have part in the first ressurection can be described as "dead", then those who don't can also be described as "dead"!

How can Christians going to hell for 1000 years be worse than them losing salvation and going to the lake of fire for all infinity (the "lose salvation" idea)?

Well, Murph, what I "feel" doesn't really have much bearing on it... But then, I actually "feel" that Christ has absolutely no duty to let disobedient Christians into his kingdom at all. After all, did he let the disobedient Jews into the first promised land??? But let's let Jesus answer the question:

"But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:45-47)

Yes, Christ will beat him with the rod. But he will also "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." And where will the unbelievers be, I ask...???

[ March 19, 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Bartholomew ]

 

Hi ER!

If you want a list, try 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21 or Eph 5:5. But this seems to boil down to the question, "How good must I be?", which I don't think the Bible tells us exactly. I mean, if it did, wouldn't there be a danger that we might sit back and think we'd achieved it? But this is just as much a problem to the other side. To those who believe in "Lordship salvation" I can ask, "How good do I have to be" to prove I'm really saved? How many sins show I'm a false professor? And to those who believe we can only be rewarded at the judgement seat, I ask, "How good must I be" to be rewarded? And how many sins disqualify me? We simply cannot know exactly. However, that said, I think Ezekiel 33:13-16 might hold much of the answer:

"When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live."

But if Jesus is still with us even when he is punishing us in this life, then he can still be with us when/if he's punishing us in hell.

I don't really agree... Jesus suffered ONCE for us; and yet he has been with other Christians who have died, even who have been crucified. Christian punishment doesn't mean God is punished too. But even if it did, then it hasn't stopped God punishing in this life; so why will it stop him punishing in the millennium?

But does being punished by God count as a "trial"? Did God comfort Annanias and Saphira when they lied to him? But again, the situation will be similar between Christians and God both when punished in this life and during the kingdom.

But also remember Jesus said he'd come and judge his servants, rewarding or punishing as the case may be.

Your friend and brother,

Bartholomew

 

P.S. It is the last day of term today at university (I use the university computers), and I don't have the internet back home (though I can go to the local library to use it). So, this will probably be my last post in several weeks - if I don't reply to any points, it won't be because I've just decided to ignore this thread!