Christians can miss the kingdom, and go to hell for 1,000 years

[Wisdom Seeker]

My church teaches that no saved Christian will have to face the white thrown judgement of God because Jesus intervened on our behalf. That we go to the "crown" line where we will be rewarded for what we did for God while living on Earth. And that we will lay those crowns at Jesus' feet in appreciation for his sacrifice.

This subject is a little over my head. I'm reading all you are saying with great interest and a desire for understanding, that at this point is a little bit beyond me.

Laurenda

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Laurenda:
My church teaches that no saved Christian will have to face the white thrown judgement of God because Jesus intervened on our behalf. That we go to the "crown" line where we will be rewarded for what we did for God while living on Earth. And that we will lay those crowns at Jesus' feet in appreciation for his sacrifice.

This subject is a little over my head. I'm reading all you are saying with great interest and a desire for understanding, that at this point is a little bit beyond me.

Hi Laurenda,

I don't think any Christian will be punished at the Great White Throne judgement; but I do think we can be punished 1000 years before this, at the judgement seat of Christ. Sorry for being confusing - I didn't want to write very much in the first post because people often don't read long posts on here. However, if you send me an e-mail I can send you an essay I wrote to properly explain it without assuming any prior knowledge.

 

[new man]

Where in the bible does it say we are saved by faith "alone"?

Russ <><

 

[baptistriddles]

If you are going to the store, then you are going by this road, using a car.

THe Bible says that we are saved by GRACE (the way) Through faith. (Vehicle.) And that not of ourselves it (the faith) is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.

Does anyone know right off hand? I am bad with numbers.

Cheryl R.

 

[dianetavegia]

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,


Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[new man]

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead (James 2:14-26).

James says very plainly that we are not saved by faith alone. In fact, that is the only instance that I can find the phrase "faith alone" in the NIV. Is there more to faith than belief?

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me , I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (Matthew 25:41-46

I didn't see one mention of faith in that passage. I saw plenty of examples however. I'm not saying we are saved by works. It just seems to me that in this passage people were ultimately judged by what they did or did not do, not by what they believed. I think there is more to salvation that simple "belief." Am I missing something?

"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done (Revelation 22:12).

That puts the fear of God in me.


God bless,

Russ <><

 

[Bible Believing Bill]

Dosn't this sound just a little like purgatory?

Bill

 

[Bartholomew]

Hi, New Man!

Thanks for the post.

Originally posted by new man:
James says very plainly that we are not saved by faith alone. In fact, that is the only instance that I can find the phrase "faith alone" in the NIV. Is there more to faith than belief?

You're exactly right about James! So often people try to twist his words to mean it is by faith alone, but James says absolutely catagorically it is not. However, Jesus makes it plain that "just believing" is all you have to do to be saved! (e.g. John 1:12, 3:15, 3:16, 3:18, 3:36, 5:24, 6:35, 6:40, 6:47, 11:26, 20:31) How do we resolve this? Answer: look at the context! Verses 12 and 13 of that chapter in James:

"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment."

The "justification" James is talking about is justification at the judgement seat of Christ - when Christians are judged for what they did on earth. Those who are justified here are rewarded with reign in the millennial kingdom. Those who are not justified are cast into hell. However, when the kingdom has run its course, the dead will come out of hell (Rev. 20:13), and all those who are Christians (i.e. who believed in Jesus) will be raised up to live with God forever. Just believing justifies you in respect to eternal salvation, and guarentees a ressurection to life on the last day (John 6:40). However, doing good works and believing justifies you in respect to being rewarded 1000 years before this.
You also said of Matthew 25:41-46

I didn't see one mention of faith in that passage. I saw plenty of examples however.

This is true. That chapter is three parables, each with a similar message, and look how Jesus begins them:

"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom." (verse 1)
"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods." (verse 14)
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" (verse 31)

All three parables about what happens when Jesus returns to reign in his millennial kingdom. They are NOT about salvation in all eternity, judged at the Great White Throne judgement, for that occurs 1000 years later. The emphasis is works because without them no Christian can enter the kingdom.

And finally, I think some have got the wrong impression: I am NOT advocating salvation by works! Eternal salvation is by believing on Jesus; but reward and punishment in the millennial kingdom is by faith AND works!

Your friend and brother,

Bartholomew

 

[Bartholomew]

Hello Bill

Originally posted by Bible Believing Bill:
Dosn't this sound just a little like purgatory?

Yes. Does that make it wrong? No. Firstly, I must point out that it is actually quite different, too: Rome's purgatory is where the soul goes straight after death; whereas this is a teaching about where the person goes during the millennial kingdom (which Catholics reject). But more fundamentally, there is REDEEMING VALUE in purgatory. Jesus' suffering isn't enough to give you eternal salvation: you must add to this by your own suffering. However, my position adds NO redeeming value to suffering in hell: it is simply punishment! Just like the way God punishes people in this life: they're already saved, but can be punished for disobeying him.

I'd ask that you don't reject this just because it sounds similar to Rome's old doctrine of purgatory (I say "old" because there seems to be a move away from it by at least some Catholics). Rome didn't just wake up one day and invent the idea: they simply perverted it from the true doctrine I'm telling you about now (it can be traced right back to the early church). Just as we don't get rid of the Lord's Supper because Rome perverted it and added redeeming value to it, so let's not reject millennial punishment in hell because Rome perverted it and added redeeming value to it. To refuse to believe this doctrine just because it sounds similar to something the Roman Catholics teach is to be guilty of elevating our own baptist tradition above the Bible: the very thing we attack Rome for.

Your friend and brother,

Bartholomew

 

[Sularis]

sigh obviously you and your sources doesnt care to consider the verses in 1 Corinthians 3:7-15

No Christian makes it into Hell because of judgement

and not because of sin either lest the blood of Christ be made of no effect.
Of course now that I oppose you Bartholomew - you should get at least a few supporters

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Sularis:
sigh obviously you and your sources doesnt care to consider the verses in 1 Corinthians 3:7-15

If you read my first post, you'll find I mentioned those verses myself! They actually back up what I'm saying completely. Here are verses 10-17:

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Yes, all these Christians will be saved; some will be rewarded, but others punished when God sends his fire. We should have "terror of the Lord" becuase of the judgement seat.

Your friend and brother,

Bartholomew

 

[RaptureReady]

I don't believe we will be punished, though we probably deserve it, but I believe we will be shown the rewards that we failed to achieve. Noone will get a A+ at the JSOChrist.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
I don't believe we will be punished, though we probably deserve it, but I believe we will be shown the rewards that we failed to achieve. Noone will get a A+ at the JSOChrist.

But someone on a "judgement seat" would give punishments as well as rewards - Pilate sat on a judgement seat, but he didn't just restrain rewards from Jesus!!! (Mat 27:19, John 19:13). Besides, why should we be terrified of God because of the judgement seat?

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;" (2 Cor 5:10&11)

 

[av1611jim]

Bro. Bartholomew;
I, too, must admit that everything that I have been taught categorically rejects this doctrine.
I am saved by the blood of Jesus and faith in His payment for my sins.
I am also an Independent, Fundamental, King James Bible Believing, Soul-winning, Prison-Preaching, (blah, blah, blah) Baptist.
That being said however: One day I was surfing around the net and found Bro. Faust's web site. Intrigued, I read and considered, read some more, pondered a little, then ordered his book.
Upon receiving the book, I devoured it. Then I re-read it and studied it out.
Now, my flesh, STILL rejects the doctrine, BUT my souls clings to it. It explains so much that has puzzled me for years. That fact that it is not popular encourages me even more. After all, the preaching of the cross is none too popular either.
I see Jesus WARNING His diciples many times and we fundamentalists apply the "blessed be's" to Christians, yet IGNORE the context and apply the clear warnings to "pretenders" or unbelievers. This flies in the face of everything I was taught in Bible Institute. Context, context, context.
Literal, literal, literal. (Unless the CONTEXT refutes it or it is obviously spiritual)
Well, I close off for now. It is a samll camp, but there are some who believe, "Every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
By the way. I also own The book of mormon; Key to the scriptures and science; and a host of other books I have studied in the course of my preparation to preach. I do NOT believe them all.
Jim

 

[John3v36]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Let me add my hearty agreement with the blanket rejection of this false teaching.

I've seen some strange things come out of Texas, but the only thing I like coming out of Texas is I-35.

Now way would you want to talk bad about the GREAT state of TEXAS. I've been to Casper, WY.
and you never hear me speak ill of it.

BTW the road do run south out of Casper, WY.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Well, I close off for now. It is a samll camp, but there are some who believe, "Every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Praise God for your stand, brother!

BTW - why do you think this thread hasn't attracted much attention? People come, make a point, they go and don't return... Do you think they are not interested? Or is it because the view that Christians can't go to hell is really based on tradition and sentiment? (I'm meaning to be disparraging - to anyone who is interested, I'd love to discuss this further.)

 

[rufus]

Bartholomew, your original post in interestingly heretical. Perhaps if Biblical contexts had not been collapsed and other contexts not ignored, truth would have been forthcoming.

I believe esoteric interpretation has ocurred! IMHO.

Hey, brother, keep working for Christ!

rufus

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by rufus:
Bartholomew, your original post in interestingly heretical. Perhaps if Biblical contexts had not been collapsed and other contexts not ignored, truth would have been forthcoming.

Would you like to document this, brother? I mean, if I am being heretical, surely you should show me why, so I will stop teaching this heresy? Why are people so quick just to throw the idea out, and yet so slow to engage it???

 

[rufus]

Originally posted by Bartholomew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rufus:
Bartholomew, your original post in interestingly heretical. Perhaps if Biblical contexts had not been collapsed and other contexts not ignored, truth would have been forthcoming.

Would you like to document this, brother? I mean, if I am being heretical, surely you should show me why, so I will stop teaching this heresy? Why are people so quick just to throw the idea out, and yet so slow to engage it??? </font>[/QUOTE]Hey, brother, permit me not to document my statements, for I simply do not wish to.

I was really hoping that you were quoting heretical stuff to expose it, but perhaps I was wrong.

I assure you I am not slow to "engage" ideas. You just don't know me, yet.

rufus

 

[Bartholomew]

Hi Rufus

Originally posted by rufus:
I was really hoping that you were quoting heretical stuff to expose it, but perhaps I was wrong.

Nope, I was quoting this true doctrine because you need to hear it (and because someone asked me to). But if it really is heretical, why not show me? BTW - just because it may fly in the face of what we have always been led to believe, that doesn't make it wrong. We can't rely on tradition; not even baptist tradition.