Problems With The "Youth Ministry"

I agree,Mark. The elder at our church who leads bible studies for them(the youth) and organizes all small groups,etc is a very wise man,in his early 30's,with 4 young children. He teaches them expositorally,challenging them to flee youthful lusts and be godly. There is no focus on fluff stuff or CCM or *youth events* but rather they are taught to love God and His Word first. It is a true blessing to see 30 or more jr high and high schoolers who can recite the entire book of James! They did this last year! I was so impressed with the diligence that was displayed in their lives to be able to do this. They do have some fun,too...there is a balance. But,the emphasis is not fun and a short devo....

Now,alhtough I like what he does with the youth,I still believe it is the parents responsibility to train their children about God. The youth group is not their *main* training.

 

Ironically, enough, the majority of people on this board would say that it is you who are showing ignorance and abuse of Scriptures. And yet, no one is despising anything about you. God has called me into ministry and has given me a strong gift in working with these students. The parents of the students who I work with have given me unequivicable support - the consensus around church is that "God has placed His hand" upon me. It is ironic that you would say such things when the evidence of my ministry is absolutely the opposite. Your hyper-fundamentalism has done nothing more than make you the worst kind of Pharisee. The only abuse of the Scriptures that I have seen is your bending and stretching of the Scriptures to fit your un-Biblical worldview.

The fact that you fail to answer so many questions that are asked you is a clear sign that you are unable to make the Scriptures fit your certain paradigm.

You stated your passage about foolishness being in the heart of a child, but have been unable or unwilling to provide a Scriptural age-framework. You have made the statement that anything that is not scriptural is carnal. I asked for a reference, and you have been unable or unwilling to give one. I even caught you in a lie, and you were unable or unwilling to respond to it.

Now, who is being the one who is acting like a child here? It is ironic that the older one here is the one who is engaged in ad-hominems and the immature "nuh-uh." I am quite glad that you don't believe in youth ministry, since it ensures that you won't be working with them and teaching them such gross errors in Scripture.

 

As I read this thread - Im spewing apple juice over my screen

Mark - you need to be - Im so shocked, and literally shaking with rage...


Matthew 18:1-6
Matthew 19:13-15
Luke 7:31-35

a better rehash Luke 18:15-17

Think of it in each of these verses the children were recieving something different then the adults

They were clearly seperated in what they were taught

and by God Almighty I swear you have violated Scripture in such a way as to make a JW blush

Ecclesiastes 3:1-10

To EVERY THING/ACTION there is a time

There is a time for youth to have fun

There is a time for the youth to study God's word

There is a time for the youth to witness to others by their behaviour and words in various settings


By JEHOVAH - Mark - when is the kids time to dance - when they are not at church?

Is church so full of tradition - and rules that we need go out the day before, and get our groove on, so that we can handle a day of BORING church?

When did praising God become work - when did dancing before the Lord our God become a sin and a waste of our resources?

The youth are not capable as adults of handling certain ideas and concepts; and as such should gently be introduced to them, do 4 year old kids need to learn about how masturbation is a sin - even though your wife is holding out on you - which is a violation of God's word in and of itself?

NO!

God gave you reason - use it

Im not advocating an entirely seperate church for youth - but times where they can learn lessons of God not only through His word - but also via fellow Christians in different situations.

How do you train someone how to behave in certain situations?

1 - You tell them
2 - Test that head knowledge
3 - Re-Explain again
4 - put them into that situation

- be it dancing- be it movies - be it cross-country bike trip - be it meeting other youths and learning that the 4 of you arent the only Christians on the face of the planet your age

A proper church should be having so many events happening - not just youth - we adults of various ages need to forsake not the assembling of ourselves for frivolous fun


Mark - How would you get a sports crazy town full of kids to come to your church?

Would you hold a sports event - with a Bible study tacked on?

Or would you hold a Bible study - and have no sports?

Which do you think will get the WORD out to more people

ANY METHOD - ANY WAY - that presents the Word of God without violating the Word of God MUST be utilized - yes even rock concerts

Go stryper! (No Ive never heard their music its an inside joke)


The fact that people on here also had the balls to call someone wet behind the ears - when Ive run across more people who dont even know Scripture, but are Christians that are over 30/40/50/60/70 - well they may have forgotten by the time they got to 70, but regardless age HAS no BEARING in the CHURCH!

Calling someone or some group of people FOOLISH!
How dare you!

Matthew 5:22

Ill admit my words are not perfect - and are currently hemmed in by the fact that Im extremely upset with those who call Youth ministry a waste. Since I have seen all too often the damage such attitudes can cause

 

Wow, Sularis. I agree with you on most everything you said. I had no idea you were so passionate, and it's good to see someone else share a passion ofr these youth. Hope that apple juice comes off the screen easily enough.

In His Grip,
joshua

 

Scott, you and Mark can hash out your differences over what you think it means, and I will give my own opinion. If we consider the entire scope of the use of the word "sarkikos" in the New Testament, we should see wthat the usages have in common "pertaining to the flesh." Sometimes it is something that is depraved or sinful (e.g. envying & strife as in I Cor. 3:3), and sometimes it is something that has to do with the flesh or human nature in a more general way (which might be food, clothing, etc. as in I Cor. 9:11).

 

Brother Robert ... we have had these discussions before but perhaps I might jump in here and say that I believe this is what Scott is saying and what I would say. Sarkikos has different meanings in different contexts. I don't think we can rule everything that is not spiritual as being negatively carnal. Sometimes it is just not spiritual. There are things in life and ministry that are not spiritual and not sinful. They could be carnal in the "general way" to use the term you used. I don't think youth ministry fits into this paradigm that you and Mark are describing. I can conceive of a great number of things in youth ministry that are not spiritual, but that are beneficial for the teens. Youth ministry is not solely about Bible study all the time.

 

Pastor Larry, the way I read the original posts where Mark and Scott were discussing carnal, it appeared to me that Mark was using carnal as "non-spiritual" and Scott took it as meaning "depraved or sinful." Now maybe I just read that into what Mark said because that's what I thought it meant. He can explain if he meant something different.

I believe my explanation of carnal/sarkikos is viable and will stand the test. I would add this fits the way I might describe a trip to Six Flags (carnal, pertaining to & appealing to the flesh) versus a Bible study (spiritual, pertaining to & appealing to the spirit). In using "carnal" in that sense there is no implication that it is sinful (though the prices those places charge may be!). Though I believe that carnal activities are outside the gifts and calling of the church, my position is firmly set in a philosophy that accepts New Testament practice as normative throughout the church. Within such a philosophy, some activities that might be considered "spiritual" could also be outside the realm of the gathered church. For a perhaps inexact example that may give an idea, I listen to quartets, choirs, soloists, etc. on the radio and tapes, but I desire that singing in the church meeting be open to and exercised by the entire congregation (and a cappella).

 

There is a typo; this should read: "my position is firmly set in a philosophy that accepts New Testament practice as normative throughout the church age."

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but this debate is not over whether or not children or young men and women should be ministered to.

Mark is not against embracing, teaching, building a relationship with or instructing young people or any people for that matter.

The debate is over the method.

In the Bible the method is always important. God gives specific instructions on how many things should be done and accomplished.

Some are very direct as the way to deal with open sin in the church or what the qualifications of an elder are.

Some are more general but still hold themself to a certain scriptural standard.

Jesus Christ did not use just any method he thought would work. He used the method, Him which sent him gave, just as we are to use the same methonds of him who sent the churches out. (i.e. Jesus the Christ)

The "any way you can get em'" philosophy is a damnable one as it has damned many peoples lives to cofusion and ruin and even others to hell.

The only sure way of not straying from God's way is to not do anything that veers even slightly from the scriptural precedent.

Now I know what some of you will say as you've already said it. That is that if this is true we have no biblical basis for brick buildings or air conditioning. This is a fools' argument. It is a foolish and unlearned question.

You can't compare apples to oranges. You can't compare things that are immaterial to a person's spiritual outlook to those that set in many's mind who or how God is. If we present the service of God as a carnal service we present to people ( more often than not impressionable young people ) not only a false sense of reality but another Jesus.

We are to be spiritualy minded people for those that worship God MUST worship him in Spirit and in Truth.

There is on other worship acceptable to God.

Therefore we should seek for our young people to strive to be spirtually minded, God fearing, scripture believing, serious people.

(please note that this does not mean boring or tired and worn out. In fact when a beliver loves God enough to keep his commandments the commandments of God and the people of God become the most precious commodities on earth no matter if your're ten or drawing your last breath.)

Indeed we inhabit an earthen vessel but the scripture cleary teaches that all men everywhere are called to repentence and are compelled to put off the old man and put on the new man. The new man is NOT a cleaned up version of the old man it is a totally different person who is in subjection to God rather than a slave to sin.

Indulging in the things of the world does NOT lead people to God. It blurs the whole image of God and the Word of God is hindered.

 

how do these verses apply, if at all, to the "youth ministry" question?

1 corinthians 9
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

now i'll sit back and learn

 

Timothy, in this thread - All Things to All - I explain what I believe concerning I Cor. 9:19-23. Perhaps you will find it interesting.

 

So when the youth meet together for something other than worship, you have no problem with some of these carnal things then. If that is the case, then we have no quarrel.

Get over yourself. There is nothing to be mad about. I have been a youth pastor and I know youth ministry. I preached and taught them the word of God in a variety of contexts. You have a personal problem it seems that leads you to overreact to things. Calm down.

To substantiate my assertions about what?? About the fact that the church has times of teaching, fellowship, and evangelism that are not worship?? I shouldn't thinks something so simple should need to be substantiated for you. It is clear that in the NT church people were broken down into both age and gender categories. It is also clear that the word of God is applied differently to each category. These gives us normative examples of age and gender divided groups. There should really be no discussion about this.

 

Here it is. It is in the 2002 Archives, which anyone should be able to access, but there is a password which may keep the link from working. I'm not sure. Password is 2002. Anyway, I just cut & pasted. Hope that's ok.

For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. I Corinthians 9:18-23

All things to all - what does that mean? Some think it means we should use great flexibility of methods to reach the lost. Some go so far as to suggest that these verses mean we do "whatever it takes" to win the lost (with some coming to the unstated conclusion that the end justifies the means). Some interpretations present Paul as a wishy-washy hypocrite who would use any gimmick to further his cause. An examination of the above verses in their context will reveal quite a different meaning - we must be willing to yield our rights for the sake of the gospel! This will harmonize with the context and the rest of the N. T.

The broad context is the entire letter to the Corinthians (to clarify doctrine and correct error). The letter may be divided into two parts: [1] Chapters 1-6, in which Paul deals with issues reported to him (cf. 1:11 & 5:1); [2] Chapters 7-16, in which Paul deals with questions from the church (see 7:1). These are usually introduced by the words 'now concerning' or 'now touching' (peri de, cf. 7:1; 8:1; 12:1; 16:1,12).

The immediate context is Paul's addressing the question of whether to eat meat offered to idols (Chapters 8-10). He concluded that every Christian had the right (liberty, freedom, power) to buy and eat such meat - it is only meat and an idol is nothing. But the freedom should be given up if it becomes a stumblingblock to a weak brother (8:9-13). Paul was not asking them to do something he was unwilling to do (8:13), and in chapter nine he illustrates the principle with his own practice. In chapter ten, he gives further instruction concerning idolatry, returns to the issue of yielding our rights (10:31-33), and finishes by urging them to follow his example (11:1). He was following Christ's example (cf. Phil. 2:5-8).

Paul's example was that he had given up his rights and privileges in deference to the furtherance of the gospel (cf. 9:23;10:33). In chapter 9:1-18, Paul establishes his right, as an apostle, to some maintenance by the Corinthian church with [1] the example of others, vs. 4-6; [2] the idea of common right, v. 7; [3] the teaching of Scripture, vs. 8-10; [4] the value of things, v. 11; [5] the practice of the Corinthians, v. 12; and [6] the ordinance of the Lord, vs. 13-14. He emphatically states (vs. 12, 15) that he had not used this power (exousia, right, freedom, liberty). He (and Barnabas) had given up this right "lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ."

Placed in context, we see verses 19-23 as Paul's example of this principle. Paul was free - a free citizen (Acts 22:25-28), and a free child of God (Rom. 8:2; Gal. 5:1; John 8:32,36) - yet he had voluntarily become a servant in order to gain as many as possible. Though Paul understood that he was free from the law, he, in his dealings with the Jews, would if necessary lay aside his rights (liberty, freedom) in order to gain Jewish converts (as in Acts 16:1-3). In dealing with the Gentiles, he would not insist on any rights that might hinder his ministry to them (as in Corinth, see I Cor. 9:1-18; cf. III John 7). Likewise, in dealing with weak brothers, he would not force his liberty to their destruction (reread 8:13; cf. Rom. 14:20,21). This he did for the gospel's sake! We should not interpret Paul's meaning according to our own ideas, but by his practice.

These thoughts are followed by Paul's asserting the need for self-discipline (vs. 24-27). A decision to voluntarily lay aside one's rights demands a training regimen that encourages subjection of our wants and needs to the overall goal. The Jews, despite their privileges and advantages (10:1-4), abandoned self-discipline, gave in to their lusts, and brought on themselves judgment and destruction (10:5-13). The Christian is to have no part in idolatrous practices (10:14-21), but is at liberty to purchase and eat meat previously offered to idols (10:25-30). The good of others and the glory of God (10:23,24,31-33) must be the guiding principle. There is an important correlation between 10:32 and 9:19-22. Give none offense (cf. 8:13), neither to the Jews (9:20), nor to the Gentiles (9:21), nor to the church of God (9:21, the weak are brothers - 8:11-13).

Do we have any rights? as Americans? as parents? as church members? as employers and employees? as customers? We have certain rights, and at times should insist that they be maintained (consider Acts 25:10,11). We can apply this text to the relinquishing of these kinds of rights, but the primary consideration is giving up rights or liberties we have as a direct consequence of our status as children of God. Will we insist on our rights even to the detriment and destruction of others? Do we have the self-discipline needed that we on occasion may say, "I defer my rights and privileges to the overall good of the work of God?" Are we willing to give up, if necessary, every right we have and every privilege we enjoy in order to further the gospel? May God help us to become all things to all through sacrificing our rights on the altar, if by all means we might gain some.

 

It is clear from examining the plethora of hateful posts that he has written that he has had something bad happen to him by church. I can only imagine what that is, but it appears that he got burned in some way, and he takes it out on anything that would be anything different than hyper-fundamentalism. In the way that he responds (or doesn't) to any one who disagrees with him in any way, we can see that his perception is that a person who disagrees with him is somehow out to get him. It's quite sad, and I would honestly and humbly encourage him to seek counseling.

Of course, what he posts may also be completely different than who he really is. I've seen that before as well. He may be living a vicarious life through the bulletin board. Either way, the attitude is completely oppositve from the love that Christ commanded us to have with each other. I believe that if a non-Christian came in here and saw Mark's hatful diatribes, he or she may be pushed further away from Christ. And that's a sad thing.

 

thank you mark and rlvaughn, i think i see what you mean.

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

what rights did paul not exercise with this group? with the jews (the right to not follow ceremonial law) and the weak (the right to enjoy permitted things that offended their conscrience) i can see what you're talking about, but with this group i don't understand. what does it mean to become as one without law?

 

I think simply put: Youth ministries exist because parents in the church are too lazy to disciple their children. I would wonder how many on this board actually take their children and teach them to share their faith by providing an example just like Jesus did. I have taken my daughter since she was two to vist people at their homes and in the hospital. The nurses have never told me that I can't. Sometimes they watch closely. I would never tell her that the person might die. She is just there with me. I take her with me to visit non-believers. She is very comfortable with people of all types. She has seen how non-believers live and sees the contrast. If we isolate our children and insulate them, we will just get weaklings that have no training and example worth much.

How can we expect adults to train their children if their examples do not share their faith on a regular basis.

There are thosands of churches who do not baptize one person in a year. My guess is that if the people in those churches would get out weekly and share their faith they might get God's blessing and actually see how God's guve beyond their wildest dreams.

I have ssen some very excellent youth programs but it started with the pastor who sought to reach people and to train the entire church to reach others with the gospel.