The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

I grew up being taught and believing that the church was going to be raptured before the tribulation. Since then I have realized this was not true.

Here are some of the issues that caused me to question my belief in a pre-trib rapture.

1. There is a problem with the concept of wrath vs. tribulation. One of the key tenets of the pre-trib position is that God did not appoint the church to suffer wrath. (1 Thessalonians 5:9) This is true the church is not appointed to suffer God’s wrath. There is a difference in God’s wrath and the Biblical concept of tribulation. Wrath is from God on disobedient men and tribulation is what the church suffers at the hands of the world. Jesus said that in this world we would have tribulation. (John 16:33) Notice that in Revelation the wrath of God is not poured out until after the tribulation, after the sixth seal is broken. (Revelation 6:15-17, Matt 24:29)

2. Signs in the heavens. There are two major signs that accompany the return of the Lord. After these signs Jesus said He would send His angels into the four corners of the world to gather His elect. (Isai 13:9-11, Joel 2:31, Matt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-28, Lk 21:25-28, Acts 2:20-21, Rev 6:12)

3. The phrase Paul uses to describe our being gathered to Christ is “the day of the Lord.” (1 Cor 5:4, 2 Cor 1:14, 1 Thes 5:2, 2 Thes 2:2-3 This day is tied in scripture to the signs that appear in the heavens. (Isai 13:6-10, Joel 2:31, Zeph 1:14-15, Acts 2:20, 2 Peter 3:10) There is no mention of the word rapture in the Bible but there is the day of the Lord.

4. There are a couple of problems with the pretrib interpretation of 2 Thes 2:1-12. First, Paul says that we will not even be gathered to the Lord until the great apostasy comes and the Antichrist is revealed. According to the pretrib view we are not going to be here when the anti-christ is revealed because his appearing is in the middle of the 7 years of the tribulation. If the pretrib view of the Holy Spirit being restrainer in this passage is correct and the restrainer is removed when the church is raptured who is going to draw all of those people who are saved out of the tribulation? This passage alone is enough to cause someone to have serious questions about the pretrib rapture.

5. Problems with numbers. The pretrib view of the rapture says that the church rapture is shown in Revelation 5:8-14. There is a problem with the numbers here. In verse 11 there is given a number for those are worshipping, ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands and thousands. However, the number of those saved out of the great tribulation in Revelation 7:9-14 is so big that no one is able to number it. So essentially, 10,000 X 10,000 = 100,000,000 plus thousands and thousands from the time Christ went back to the Father’s right until the rapture, but then in three and half years more people come to Christ than can be numbered. It doesn’t add up.

6. Problem with the names in the Revelation 5:8-14 passage. This passage calls the 10,000 X 10,000 and thousands and thousands “angels.” We are not angels. This cannot be the church. However, the innumerable group of people that are worshipping the Lamb in Revelation 7:9-14 are called the “the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” This great number of people is definitely the church.

7. The problem with the calls to persevere in Revelation. (Rev 13:10, Rev 14:12) Both of the references listed are given after describing the antichrist and the mark. Why would there be such warnings if we were not going to be here?


Finally, which position would be most to Satan’s advantage? If the rapture is true then there is no damage done by believing otherwise. If you are a Christian you are still going to be raptured. However if the rapture is not true there is real danger. Believers are not going to be looking the antichrist or the mark. They could be deceived into taking the mark. Those who take the mark are under the same judgment as unbelievers.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

I too was raised in a church that was very much Pretrib and Premil in their theology. I am not really sure anyone completely understood the concepts, they just knew that was right even though they could not explain it. As I got older and began to study the concepts myself I began to feel very uncomfortable with the Pretrib concepts. Thus from my study I would say that at the moment I am more of a Historical Premil person. But as my journey continues that may change, but I do feel there are way too many holes in the theology of Pretrib.

PastorSBC1303, you are studying the issue and are not sure about your own position but you know that the pretrib view is full of holes?

Is it not possible that you were given an uninformed view of pretrib or that you did/do not fully understand it?

Gunther,

I understand my view completely. My point was that the more I study, the more I glean and understand regarding how full of holes the pretrib position is--ie the points that were made in this original post.

Tim too,

I agree with all your points regarding pre-trib rapture. IMO, pre-trib rapture isn't even close to being Biblical. The most Biblical view of which I am aware is called the pre-wrath rapture.

Marvin Rosenthal wrote a pretty good book about it called The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, and he raises many of the same issues you did.

In rapture debates, there is often a general assumption that the church is untouchable... that unlike Israel, the church cannot possibly face God's wrath, despite committing far worse sins.

Facing God's wrath, and being destroyed by God's wrath, are two entirely different things. God may have promised not to destroy the church, but He never promised a free pass.

Originally posted by Petey Dragon:
God may have promised not to destroy the church, but He never promised a free pass.

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Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The church, by virtue of being the church, is not under the wrath of God. This is no free pass. The sins of the church are atoned for by the blood of Him who is her husband, the Lord Jesus.

Soli Deo Gloria

Originally posted by npetreley:
Tim too,

I agree with all your points regarding pre-trib rapture. IMO, pre-trib rapture isn't even close to being Biblical. The most Biblical view of which I am aware is called the pre-wrath rapture.

Marvin Rosenthal wrote a pretty good book about it called The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, and he raises many of the same issues you did.

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Thanks for mentioning the book. I haven't read it but I would like to.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

The issue has nothing to do about whether the Church can face persecution, or is under God's wrath, or etc. What is important is what does the Bible say concerning the timing of the Lord's coming, what must happen first, who will see it, does it square away with all OT prophecies, etc.

Originally posted by tannerml:
The church, by virtue of being the church, is not under the wrath of God. This is no free pass. The sins of the church are atoned for by the blood of Him who is her husband, the Lord Jesus.

Soli Deo Gloria

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I agree with you about the church not suffering the wrath of God. The error in the pretrib view is that is confuses the wrath of God against sinful men with tribulation which is almost always spoken of in the Bible as against the church from the world.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

Oh my, what a destruction of pretribulation
rapture strawmen The actual pretribulation
rapture doctrine is not at all as described
above. The pretribulation rapture
doctrine presented above is hardly close
enough to repair in the time i have to
type this morning.

Tim too: "the pretrib view of the
rapture says that the church
rapture is shown in Revelation 5:8-14."

I've been a pretribber for 51 years
and this is news to me. Which pretribber
is out teaching this stuff? Did you
get his lisense tag when he ran over you?

Here is ed's primer on "tribulation"
which he wrote about 10 years ago:

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adan & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

Originally posted by Pete Richert:
The issue has nothing to do about whether the Church can face persecution, or is under God's wrath, or etc. What is important is what does the Bible say concerning the timing of the Lord's coming, what must happen first, who will see it, does it square away with all OT prophecies, etc.

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Amen, Brother Pete -- Preach it!

Here is another pretrib writing of mine
from about 4 years ago:

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The timeline according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The timeline according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection
Matthew 24:31-44

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If this is your view, you need to rethink it.

Those who are "taken" in Matthew 24 are taken in JUDGEMENT, not raptured. Those who are left behind are the righteous ones. Just as the flood of Noah washed away the unrighteous (v.39), so shall the unrighteous be swept away to destruction when the Son of Man returns for His church.

36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Here in Matthew 24 we have all the information we need to see the order of events, and when the rapture occurs. Verse 28 tells you these events occur immediately AFTER the great tribulation, so the order is simple:

1. Great Tribulation

2. The celestial signs of the Day of the Lord and the return of Christ.

3. Everyone on earth mourns as they see the visible return of Christ in glory.

4. (Not in Matthew) Seals a remnant from all the tribes of Israel for protection during the wrath of God.

5. Rapture.

6. (Not in Matthew) Wrath.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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First, it occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days (the great tribulation). The tribulation is ended with the return of Christ, which is marked by the celestial signs of the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Lord's wrath (we are not appointed to wrath).

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.

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However, God will protect the remnant of His people Israel on the Day of the Lord.

Joel 3 ...For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness. 16 The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel.

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And now let's bring all of the above together in Revelation.

Here are the celestial signs that, as Jesus said in Matthew 24, come "immediately after the tribulation".

Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

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Jesus continues, "then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

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Note that it is the day of His wrath. Now God seals His remnant from all the tribes of Israel for protection during the outpouring of wrath.

Revelation 7 ..."Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed

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Then He gathers together His elect (the rapture).

Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God...

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Now where did all these raptured people come from?

Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know."
So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Oh my, what a destruction of pretribulation
rapture strawmen The actual pretribulation
rapture doctrine is not at all as described
above. The pretribulation rapture
doctrine presented above is hardly close
enough to repair in the time i have to
type this morning.

Tim too: "the pretrib view of the
rapture says that the church
rapture is shown in Revelation 5:8-14."

I've been a pretribber for 51 years
and this is news to me. Which pretribber
is out teaching this stuff? Did you
get his lisense tag when he ran over you?

Click to expand...

Hi Ed,

Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I stand corrected. I don't contest that the pretrib view of the rapture is typed in Rev. 4:1. I should have said pretribbers say that Rev 4 & 5 show the church as in heaven after the rapture.

Here are some links to some pretribber pages that say that.

http://www.geocities.com/truedino/ch7rapt.htm
http://www.soulcare.org/Bible%20Studies/Revelation/Revelation_4to5_Rapture.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/de/rapture/The_1st_Resurrection.html
http://www.trbc.org/sermons/971116.html

I appreciate your presentation of pretrib teachings but how would you explain the problems, say in 2 Thes 2:1-12 that I have listed?

In the love of Christ,
Tim

How many people would want their bride to go through what is going to happen here on earth?

Originally posted by Watchman:
How many people would want their bride to go through what is going to happen here on earth?

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Are you saying that the "Bride" is exempt from persecution and martyrdom? Are the millions of Christians who've been persecuted and martyred through the ages not part of the "Bride"? If they are part of the Bride, then what makes us think that we are somehow exempt from tribulation? (Remember "tribulation" is NOT synonymous with God's wrath.)

Doubting Thomas, it's not that way. It is that the Bride will not be subject to the wrath of the Father. That is quite a different matter.

Originally posted by Helen:
Doubting Thomas, it's not that way. It is that the Bride will not be subject to the wrath of the Father. That is quite a different matter.

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Exactly. However, the "Tribulation" and "God's Wrath" are not identical. That was my point.

Revelation 7:13b:
" ... These are the ones who come out
of the great tribulation ... "

Did Noah come out of the flood before
the flood or during the flood?

Did Lot come out of Sodom before the
destruction of Sodom or during the
destruction of Sodom?

I believe the un-numberable quantity
of born-again, church-age,
Christian elect saints who CAME OUT
of the Tribulation Period came out,
by the grace of God, before the
Tribualtion Period at the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection. If you are going to
shout "Amen", now would be a GOOD TIME
to do it