The questionable Pretribulation Rapture

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

My take is that on the day the last trump sounds, and the living saints hear "come up hither" and the dead in Christ rise from their graves, their souls having reunited with their now changed and glorified bodies, to meet the Lord in the air, that will also be this earth's last and final day.

The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be very visible, and all eyes shall see him, even the eyes of those that pierced him, he shall be coming in all his glory with all the armies of heaven.

Then, those who are not elect, those whom the Bible calls the "wicked", shall all stand before the Great White Throne, and books will be opened, and the sea shall give up all its dead, and all the double dead shall be resurrected, and they shall be made to answer for their sins, be found guilty and cast into hell for ever more, together with death and the grave.

All this in one day.

No 7 years' tribulation while a great wedding is being held in outer space.

 

Tim too: "How could these be pretribulation saints
if they come out after (they weren't there before)
the great tribulation?"

Please do NOT ADD TO THE written WORD OF GOD.

Revelation 7:13b says this:
" ... These are the ones who come out
of the great tribulation ... "

But your questions seem to add to it
so it reads:

Revelation 7:13b:
" ... These are the ones who come out
AFTER the great tribulation ... "

In fact, the rest of the Bible teaches
that the church age, born-again Christian
elect saints come out (the falling away)
of the world before the Tribulation Period
starts.

 

In this context, what does "day" mean?
Feel free to consult a dictionary.
If you can't find about a dozen meanings
of "day" then you haven't tryed very hard.
I still find the "48-hour-day" missing
from the dictionaries. The "48-hour-day"
is how long a day lasts from the moment
it begins on the earth until the last
moment of it ends on the earth.

BTW, i've found that all the theories
of the end times seem to vary ONLY
by the definition of simple words:
FIRST and DAY especially.

 

You are a-mill
and a-trib? That is a new one for me.

 

Tim too: "Is the son of perdition not the antichrist?"

Yes, they are one and the same.


Tim too: "If he is, how can the church be raptured before
the tribulation if he, the antichrist is to be
revealed during the tribulation?"

How can the church NOT be raptureed before the
Tribulation period?
Don't you read what i write?
I can understand if you don't believe what i
write, but at least READ THE STUFF thank you.
Matthew 24, 2 Thessalonians 2, Revelation
all agree: the Rapture happens before the Tribulation
period starts.

I think when 100s of Millions of People are raptured
and Billion of People are Resurrected, the people
left behind will want to know: WHAT HAPPENED?
The AC (antichrist) will have an answer for them.
The AC will thus reveal himself.

 

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [that] [Day] [will] [not] [come] unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition , 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thes 2:1-4 NKJV

Paul says that we are not going to be gathered to the Lord until after "the falling away comes first" and the man of sin, the son of perdition is revealed.

If the antichrist is revealed during the seven years of the tribulation how do you explain this problem?

In the love of Christ,
Tim </font>[/QUOTE]Ah, you are reading
the AND in verse one different from me.
I believe the AND in verse one to connect
two different sets of events:

Oh I already wrote it up years ago:


\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is not mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering):

Matthew 24:31-44
Mark 13
Luke 21
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4-5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-19
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [that] [Day] [will] [not] [come] unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition , 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thes 2:1-4 NKJV

The falling away/rapture/resurrection/gathering
is BEFORE THE Tribulation Period;
the Second Coming/Day of Christ is after
the Tribulation Period.

 

The problem I am having is that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You want to say that these, in Rev 7:13 are “the un-numberable quantity of born-again, church-age, Christian elect saints who CAME OUT of the Tribulation Period.” But then in the same breath you want to say they came out “before the Tribualtion Period at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.”

The verse says "out of" but you keep trying to say before.

In the love of Christ,
Tim </font>[/QUOTE]Same thing: "out of" and
"before".

If you skip "out of" class, do you
leave before class or in the middle of class?
I skip the whole thing

Matthew 24-25, Mark 17, and Luke 21
contain the Mount Olivet Discourse
of Jesus. He has two examples:
Noah and Lot. Noah was taken out of the
earth BEFORE the flood, not from the
MIDST of the flood.
Lot was taken out of Sodom BEFORE the
destruction began, not from the MIDST
of the destruction.

I believe if Jesus had wanted to tell us
about a gathering/rapture/resurrection
in the middle of the Tribulation Period
He would have used the story of
Daniel and the Lion's Den (God kept
Daniel safe from the Lions in the MIDST
of the Lion's Den).
He would have used the story of
the Three Hebrew Children (God kept
the Three Hebrew Children in the MIDST
of the firey furnace)..

No Fellow Child of the King, we are going
to get took out when Jesus comes to get
us BEFORE the Tribulation Period begins.
Amen!

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy.
11SC. Time of sorrow.

 

I need to run off to work.
Check in with ya'll later.

May God look down this day with
favor upon Tim_too, his family,
and his ministry. May this be done so
that we might give all the more honor
and glory unto our blessed Lord and
Savior: Messiah Yeshua. Amen!

 

As I pointed out in a previous post, those who are “taken” in the passage are taken in judgment. Those who remain are the righteous. This passage most definitely does not teach a “rapture” where the righteous are gathered from the earth.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage. (15:51-53 refers to the final resurrection of the dead and the transformation of the living, but does not mention that this takes place in the context of a rapture.)

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in 3:20-21. (I don’t understand your reference to “4-5”. There is no chapter 5 and verses 3:4-5 don’t seem to relate at all.)

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

1:10 and 5:9 mentioned missing the wrath of God (however you interpret that), but does not mentioned the rapture.

2:19 and 5:23 do not teach anything regarding the rapture.

4:13-18 makes a reference (v.17) to a rapture, but many of us see it as a clear reference to meeting the Lord as He returns on the last day. Nothing in the passage indicates that it will be secret or not immediately precede the final judgment.

1:7 and 2:1 do not necessarily teach a secret rapture.

2:3 - I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in these passages.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.

I cannot find anything that teaches rapture in this passage.


CONCLUSION:

The New Testament does not teach a secret rapture where the elect will be gathered from the earth before a period of tribulation.

Traditionally Matthew 24 has been profoundly misinterpreted to built the doctrine (the RIGHTEOUS are left behind!) and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has been used to bolster this argument. But one you remove the faulty interpretation of Matthew 24 from the discussion, 1 Thessalonians simply refers to the end of the age when the church will meet the Lord in the air as He returns - like a crowd rushing to greet a conquering King.

If you do not agree, please show me a passage that clearly teaches a pretribulation rapture.

 

There is no explanation. I don't see how it could be any more clear than what Paul says right there in 2 Thessalonians.

... concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him ... [don't be disturbed by a false claim] ... as though the day of Christ is at hand ... that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed ...

In the pre-wrath rapture order of events, all of this makes perfect sense, since the onset of the Day of the Lord is when the rapture occurs. The Day of the Lord itself is the beginning of God's outpouring of wrath upon the world.

Paul talks about them here as if they're one and the same -- and they are. The coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, our gathering together with Him, and the Day of Christ are all the same. And they are all preceded by the revealing of the man of sin.

In the pre-trib rapture, you have to make the whole passage a scramble of events and extended time periods. Translated into pre-trib, this passage would read:

... concerning the first secret coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together with Him at the secret rapture, do not be concerned about a false report that some other event called the Day of Christ is at hand, because that day will not come until after 3 1/2 years after you're secretly raptured, when the man of sin is revealed, which you can't be around to see anyway, so I'm not sure why I mentioned it ...

 

Baptist Believer: "I cannot find anything that teaches
rapture in this passage."

Your loss.
One wise man told me to study a passage until
I saw Jesus there. Did you see Jesus in any
of these passages?

 

teach us then.

 

It’s not a loss to me if it is a false doctrine that has no basis in the scripture – and that certainly seems to be the case.

Traditionally, the “strongest” and “clearest” passages regarding the secret rapture of the church have been considered to be in Matthew 24 and in 1 Thessalonians 4, but Matthew 24 has clearly been misinterpreted by secret rapture advocates and 1 Thessalonians 4 ties the rapture event to the day when Christ returns visibly to judge the nations – there’s nothing secret about it.

The other passages you (and so many others) have thrown out have nothing to do with a secret rapture.

EVERYONE LOSES if we allow manmade doctrines to undermine the gospel.

I do not say this to be harsh, but rather to provoke you to reconsider your opinion.

I see Jesus throughout those scriptures, but I don’t see what you claim is there. If it is truly in the scripture, please try to make it clear to me. I’ve searched in vain for years for scriptural evidence of a secret rapture (because that’s what I was taught when I was a youngster in church), but I’ve never seen a hint of it even after reading the Bible from cover to cover a couple of times and the New Testament more times than I can count.

 

Dear Brother Baptist Believer:

I don't believe in a "secret rapture".
I don't teach a "secret rapture".
You are shadow boxing with "secret rapture".
That may be lots of fun, but is
hardly productive. Tell us what the
rapture is, when it is (relative to other
end times events), and how to get ready
for it. Then, perchance if you are right,
something productive would have been done.
I shall try to do likewise.

God bless
- Ed