Pre-millenial dispensationalism - Baptist?

This accusation is false. Read my last post again. I take elements of the Abrahamic covenant to be literal and some to be spiritual as I explained.

 

Historical grammatical interpretation is "normal" interpretation. It takes the words as they were intended. Covenantalism does not use this method, even though many of them claim it. They spiritualize or allegorize obviously literal passages, for instance taking side by side passages (or even elements within the same passage) and spiritualizing one while literalizing the other. That is simply bad hermeneutics. Dispensationalism's key is the consistent use of this hermeneutic. Covenantalism's downful is the inconsistent use of htis hermeneutic.

 

I don't believe that dispensationalists are consistently literal--by the normal definition of the word "literal". They are literal with some things and not with others. That's fine with me, as long as you don't claim otherwise.

For example, consider this passage,Jer. 31: 35-37. A grammatical reading would indicate that the sun, moon and stars as described in v. 37 are the actual heavenly bodies--the grammar demands it.

Historically, the passage describes the time which follows the return of the Jews from exile in Babylon. After their return, the Lord states that the seed of Israel will be a nation before Him forever.

How does that work literally? There was NO literal nation of Israel for over 1500 years. Yet the sun, moon, and stars kept shining. But there was a spiritual nation, described in 1 Peter 2:9,10 as believers (i.e. the church).

The N.T. clarifies the veiled nature of this O.T. prophecy. So the "nation" of Jer. 31 is a figurative expression for the church.

Tim

 

Looks like some people posting here may have their mouths hanging open when the trumpet blows! (Just for an instant, of course...right before the twinkling of an eye....)

 

She E.,

I appreciate your zeal. When you finally see the light, you'll be a great addition to the amil camp!

Tim

 

My Brothers, can you help me?

Regarding the time of the RAPTURE, I have a question in mind.
Will it occur before or after the tribulation period ?
Paul had discussed in The Letters to the Corinthians and also to the Thessalonians about the rapture.
He said AT THE LAST TRUMP.... THE MYSTERY OF GOD WILL BE FINISHED...
In the Book of Revelation, it was written there that When the last trumpet of the Seventh Angel sounded, THE MYSTERY OF GOD WILL BE FINISHED.
Before that verses, there were seven thunderings but John was forbidden in writing the utterance of the seven thunders. ( Must it not be written about the rapture, perhaps, so that it will be kept secret unto the unbelievers )
If so, that THE RAPTURE OCCUR AT THE LAST TRUMPET ( in the book of Revelation ), then the RAPTURE must begin after the TRIBULATION ( as you can see when the six angels sounded the six trumpets ) but it must be before the LAST PLAGUES.

What can you say about this?

I just want to hear your doctrines or explanation about this because I was confused whether which must be the true doctrine.

Thanks.

In Christ,
Vincent

[ November 24, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Barnabas ]

 

In eschatology, once we get beyond Jesus is coming again, there is no "true" doctrine. All we have is a gazillion opinions about what symbolic, apocalyptic language means.

There is no confusion about Jesus coming again. Beyond that, however, we have an eschatological Tower of Babel.

 

Tim... (and other folks)

I've been S. Baptist born, bred and dead.

I think though I've been re-born as a non-denom through some folks who were better students of the bible than your typical Southern Baptist Preachers.

You mentioned in an earlier post about some literal interpretive problems with the Throne of David.

I invite you to visit the Ark of the Covenant posts also in this Bible Study section.

The Ark isn't the important thing. The Mercy Seat is.

Every King needs a throne. Every King needs a Kingdom.

STAY WITH ME ON THE BOOLEAN LOGIC OF THE FOLLOWING:

IF the Mercy Seat IS a Throne (and scripture seems to indicate that) AND its still around (ask any friendly neighborhood Ethiopian). THEN by the witness of our Ethiopian Brethern it seems that it has a destiny in the Millennial Kingdom.

I'll trade you 30 Amill PHD pointy heads for one Guardian Monk in Axum, Ethiopia.

Interested enough to check out that other board now?

Your Brother,
Steven

 

Amill doesn't teach that everything goes "poof" out of existence when Christ returns. Therefore, even amill sees a kingdom after Christ returns. What separates amill from premill is not a kingdom after Christ's return, but whether that kingdom is eternal from the get-go (amill) or has a 1000-year period before it becomes eternal (premill).

 

Steven,

I like your "pointy head" comment, it's a lot better than being called a "heretic"!

But regarding your case for the importance of the mercy seat, it seems that once we start down the road of attaching eternal importance to O.T. types and figures, there's no logical stopping point. Thus we see the rise of Messianic Jewish teachings today, Passover feasts, and the associated fervor about red heifers, etc.

I was born and bred a dispensationalist, but in the theological aspect of my mid-life crisis, my own study of the scriptures led me to a different eschatological position. Along the way, I was forced to depart from my own presuppositions about how to read details of prophetic scriptures in order to see the big picture of the scripture as a consistent whole. And the kingdom is the big picture! Your understanding of that central teaching of the N.T. will point you toward your eschatology.

In Christ,

Tim

 

hmm...without getting into too much Pre mill vs. Amill.. ( I just spent the last two weeks reading a comprehensive book on the good and bad of all sides of the issue) I'd be interested in what your thoughts are of this "Central Issue of the New Testament."

I thought the central issue was Christ. Funny enough I thought the O.T.'s central issue was Christ too. The law, prophets and Moses all pointed to him. At least that's what several folks in the NT say.

Was I wrong?

I guess you could also say the central issue of the entire bible is "redemption".

 

Steve,

If you've read much about the amil position (from amils), you'll know that we're always writing about how we believe our view to be more Christocentric than Dispensationalism, which we feel is more Israel-centric. Of course His redemption is the focal point of scripture and history itself. No one would debate that.

Our beliefs about the kingdom are in complete harmony with putting Christ and His redemption at the center of our theology. Christ's ascension to His heavenly throne at God's right hand is the fitting result of His finished work of redemption. It is the focus of many O.T. prophesies and Christ said it could be found as a theme throughout the O.T. scriptures (Luke 24:25-27). The kingdom is the introductory message of Christ's ministry, the focus of Christ's longest recorded sermon, the theme of His parables, and a frequent doctrine in the epistles.

So my point is simply that an understanding of the spiritual nature of the kingdom as it is so revealed in the N.T. leads us to see the relative insignificance of O.T. shadows today. Hence we have little concern about the present location of the mercy seat or the ark of the covenant.

I hope that didn't sound too "pointy-headed" to you.

Tim

 

Tim,

AMEN! I am 100% agree with you. I was a premill before for a long time. But I was not really deep-core dispensationalist.

During that time I was premill, often I hear premill/disp teaches that Israel and Church are separate into different plan of salvatio and different time.

But, we all have to start with God's covenant with Adam back to Gen. 3:15 start with blood.

Adam was saved by faith through the blood. No doubt, Adam might taught Cain and Abel about the blood sacrifice by slain the lamb. Abel listened and obeyed, also, he put his faith by offering the lamb with the blood. He was saved by the blood - please read Heb. 11:4.

Later, God called Abraham, and He already make covenant with Abraham,he believed in God, he was already counted into righteousness by the faith only - Gen. 15:5-6 refer with Romans 4:3-5; and Gal. 3:6.

Abraham was saved by the faith only, not by works, same as we are saved by the faith through the grace, not by works - Eph. 2:8-9.

The redemption and Christ both are in the center of the Bible.

There is only one plan of salvation for all ages from creation to the end of the age is: simple have faith in the Lord already counted for rightesouness, add nothing of the laws or works.

THere is only one family in the heaven, that God own. God only have one wife - all faith children throughout all ages through Christ - Gal. 3:26.

Calvary already put both Jews and Gentiles together into one body of Christ - Eph. 2:11-16. That's it.

There is no another new group coming right after suppose "pretrib" rapture passed. God already set up both Jews and Gentiles together into one body of Christ.

So, Church is Israel, Israel is Church.

You can label me as I am "Replacement Theology" if you want to. That is fine with me. But I am NOT a Replacement Theology. I simple believe Israel is Church, Church is Israel.

We have to read whole context of Romans chapter 11 talk about Gentiles are now added to the Olive Tree to join with believing Jews together into one tree, so, ALL(both Jews and Gentiles) are Israel saved - Romans 11:26.

Matt 13:39-42; Matt 25:31-33, and 46 telling us, that all goats(unbelievers) shall be cast away into everlasting fire.

Show us where verse saying in the Bible, that there will be survivors who will miss "pretrib" rapture, and they will enter supposed millennial kingdom, while they will remain have mortal body??

Does the Bible teaches us, there will be another chance for unbelievers to repented for salavtion AFTER Jesus comes???

Please think of Matt 25:1-12, what does the parable saith? Do you understand what the parable talk about? Tell me what the parable talk about?

Is there another chance for a person to repent for salvation AFTER Christ's coming? If so, please show us where verse saying it?

Please think twice what the Bible saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

J. Vernon McGee in his commentary on Revelation, Chapter 1 gives a long list of early Church leaders who were premill. The first was none other than Barnabas, Paul's missionary partner. From him on down through the years the Church favored the premill position.
Dr. McGee states that anyone who says that premill was an invention of the 1800's doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

Tim said:

Wow.. I just could never agree with that statement. I'm going to use a New Testament verse to back me up on this:

ALL scripture...OT & NT.

Tim, every person giving testimony of Christ in the New Testament does it by using Old Testament verses. Even Christ. I personally feel insufficient even studying the Gospels until I do more expositional study of the Old Testament.

I'm going to expound more in a separate posting that will address DeafPostTrib's queries.

I'll preface it though by saying I've listened to a lecture by a Messianic Jew concerning the Millennial Kingdom. Most of my questions...even the ones I didn't know I had.. were answered forever.

 

Steven,
I did NOT say the relative unimportance of the O.T.--but rather the O.T. SHADOWS, i.e. those physical things which were typological in nature, pointing to greater spiritual truths in the N.T. Of course the O.T. is the foundation for the New. It was written for our instruction. But the O.T. Law is Israel's covenant--we are contracted to a greater covenant (Mat. 26:28).

As far as Messianic Jewish teaching goes--the simple truth is that it reverts to the Old Covenant in many ways. Galatians and Hebrews have a lot to say about that.

Watchman,
Nobody (that I know of) says that Premillenialism is an invention of the 1800's--but rather that DISPENSATIONAL premillenialism is an invention of the 1800's. You will not find any theologian of any stripe holding to the fundamental tenet of dispensationalism (two separate plans for Israel and the Church) before the 1800's.

A believer in the better covenant,

Tim

 

Tim & DeafPostTrib,

Yes we have a Greater covenant and Amen to that.

Tim's comment about the newness of Dispensationalism means squat to a dispensationalist.

As far as Messianic Jewish teaching goes... I wouldn't knock that since Jesus is a Jew, you could make a case that the Holy Spirit is too.

The parables of Matthew 13 aren't as clear to a gentile mindset because it deals in Jewish idioms. Every parable deals with corruption in the Kingdom. You can get a flavor of the same thing in Isaiah 65 where he writes about sinners being accursed in the Kingdom.

Now to answer DeafPostTrib's question about the 10 virgins Parable:

I have to admit up front my weakness on knowing what the oil is. Its probably the key to understanding the whole thing...so why don't we put our heads together on this.

First off...the 10 virgins are spilt into two groups...foolish and wise right?

5 have lamps, oil, and in the KJ vessels

the other 5 have only lamps

All 10 were virgins
All 10 slumbered
All 10 rose to the call of the Bridegroom

The 5 foolish asked for oil of the 5 wise.
The 5 wise told them to go buy the oil.

The 5 foolish went to go buy and missed the wedding.

BUT...the 5 foolish virgins...were still virgins at the end.


To me there is a lot going on. So if someone wants to clue me in on the oil aspect...it would help me. I'm thinking its the Holy Spirit..but I need a good Messianic Jew to show me. Haha.

Otherwise...That Israel is the church and the church is Israel thing...that's a demonically inspired thought that led to places like Sobibor and Auschwitz. Sorry if that offends you, but its true, check your history. Sadly, the fact that its starting again among Christians is a testament to the next Holocaust spoken of in Revelation.

All questions about God dealing with the Jews should have ended May 14, 1948...and reiterated June 1967. Even the dates were prophetic fulfillments.


Hey the aforementioned Messianic Jew teaching on the Millennial Kingdom...just so happens to be airing on the 66/40 Radio program this week. Here's the link:

66/40 Radio broadcast: Thy Kingdom Come

listen if you dare...you might learn something

Steve

 

Originally posted by Tim:

Watchman,
Nobody (that I know of) says that Premillenialism is an invention of the 1800's--but rather that DISPENSATIONAL premillenialism is an invention of the 1800's. You will not find any theologian of any stripe holding to the fundamental tenet of dispensationalism (two separate plans for Israel and the Church) before the 1800's.

If that's what was meant I'm sorry Tim, but you must understand my confusion when comments were made, such as by swaimj:
"...in the 1800's...premillenialism was born" This does not mention the word dispensational and there are other postings here leaving it out. IMHO dis-premill does fit ALL sripture the best. Obviously, there is much disagreement on eschatology but I love all the brethren regardless. One thing I know all of us can agree on: the future will all happen according to God's fore-knowledge and His perfect will!

 

Steve,

If you think 'Church is Israel Israel is Church' is a demonic belief, why do you think it is?

I find something very interesting about Israel.

Last year, I found out there is another reference verse for Matt 16:18-19. It is refer with Gen. 32:28.

Before discuss on Gen. 32:28. First look at Matt 16:18-19.

Matt 16:18-19 say, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

THere are three key words in Matt 16:18-19 - 'church', 'prevail', and 'keys'.

Prevail means success or against. Key is a symbolic mean power.

Why there are three key words of Matt 16:18-19?

Because I found there are three key words in Gen. 32:28 that fits with Matt 16:18-19.

Gen. 32:28 says, "And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

The angel told Jacob, that his name is no more Jacob, change to Israel. Israel means a prince have power to build his people with success.

The angel does not say, ' a prince have power with God and with Jews'. The angel said, 'a prince have power with God and with MEN'.

Men - people could be both Jews and Gentiles.

Same with Matt 16:18 - Jesus says, he is built his CHURCH. Church is God's people both Jews and Gentiles.

Jesus already give power to us - Matt 28:18, and Acts 1:8.

Jesus tells us, the hell and Satan cannot destroy the Church. Because Jesus already have power to Church, and its successful since Early Church to present day, it will be continue last longer till second advent.

I am not postmill. I do not agree with postmill teaches that Church revolutionized or change the world into victory toward second advent.

Bible teaches us, that we shall see apotasy everywhere in the world increasing worse till second advent.

Matt 16:18-19 is the picture that we have power from Christ, that we can witness the gospel across the world for Christ.

In Eph. 2:12 tells us, Gentiles were stranger, but now Gentiles are part of the commonwealth of Israel. Because Christ already brough Gentiles to join with Jews together into one by Calvary - Eph. 2:14-16.

Romans chapter 11 tells us, that we as Gentiles are now grafting to join with believing Jews together on the same Olive Tree, so, we are all Israel.

Also, 1 Peter 2:9 tells us, that we are called out, and are a chosen generation, and an holy nation. We are God's elect. It is very clear that we are Israel same as Church.

I am not a replacement theology. I understand very clear what the Bible teaches us all about.

Now discuss on parables and Matt 25:1-12.

First of all, parables are not literal things, these are use for illustration. Jesus used parables that, he wants all people to understand what Jesus was talk about, he used parables for to apply the things with spiritual meanings.

Matt 25:1-12- 'oil' is not a literal thing. He used 'oil' for the illustration, that 5 wise persons with oil are the picture - saved persons, that 'oil' is the picture that a person already received Holy Spirit at salvation. The five foolish persons without have oil are represent not saved, because not have Holy Spirit.

Matt 25:12 is very clear tell us that there is no another chance for repent - salvation AFTER the second advent.

There will be no survive goat to enter eternality kingdom after the second advent, because Christ shall judge all goats(unbelievers), send them into the everlasting fire.

Cannot you understand the clear describe of Matthew 25:1-12; and 31-46 talking about?

Jesus does not give difficult or too deep teaching or lecture to people. He gave many simple and clear lectures to people, because h3e desires all people to understand what he talking about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!