Pre-millenial dispensationalism - Baptist?

[Felix]

Hello Everyone,

Forgive me please for jumping in the middle of this but I do have a question. Recently I started and continue now to study Eschatology and various views. I believe I stated that before in this thread. Can anyone direct me to a source, how Pre-millennial Dispensationalists interpret the following verse:

Gal 3:29. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

I believe they would have a tough time interpreting this, but I may be mistaken.
Any thoughts?

Thanks

Felix

 

[Matt Black]

Hmm...not sure I like this talk of 'progressive revelation' too much. It smacks too much of Roman Catholicism and Tradition as well as, as Tim has pointed out, the more loopy end of the charismatic movement - "I am doing a new thing, saith the Lord". Yes, certainly, within Scripture there is a progression from Genesis through to Revelation, but this is quite different from claiming post-canonical revelation, which the closing words of Rev expressly prohibits, and of which the RCs, Orthodox and charismatics are all guilty. Let's not fall into the same trap, guys...

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[aefting]

Can anyone direct me to a source, how Pre-millennial Dispensationalists interpret the following verse:

Gal 3:29. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

I believe they would have a tough time interpreting this, but I may be mistaken.

Here is a LINK (I would Right-Click, Save-Target-As to download; it's about 9 MB) to a recent MP3 sermon that covers that passage. I haven't personally listened to this message but, trust me, it will be outstanding. The first part of the recording will include a somewhat long pastoral prayer. If you are not interested in that, then you can skip that part. The speaker, Dr. Mark Minnick, is a dispensationalist and one of the best expositors around today, IMO. He is currently preaching through Galatians. The title of the message is Now That Faith Has Come.


Andy

 

[Tim]

Andy,

I know Mark Minnick, and he truly is a very gifted preacher. But as a dispensationalist, I believe he still misunderstands much of Bible prophecy. But there are good men on different sides of these issues. So there's something to learn even from those with whom we disagree.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[stevenlynch]

Matt,

I don't think that new things are necessarily revealed, It just appears that Old things are being brought to clarity.

100 years ago...to say that there would be a Jewish Nation populated by millions of Jews would have sounded nuts.

Now...not only do we know it for a fact, there is scholarship that said if we had studied our bibles a little better, we would have known the day it would have been accomplished.

25 years ago...if you had claimed the Ark of the Covenant was located in Ethiopia, you would have been thought a nut.

Now...you could sell a bunch of videos.

BASE Institute Online Store

By the way...I highly recommend the video...and receive no profit.

Steve

 

[stevenlynch]

Felix,

Gal 3:29. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

I believe they would have a tough time interpreting this, but I may be mistaken.
Any thoughts?

I'd love to take a stab at this one!...But I'm not sure what you are trying to prove.

Do you mean a "wild olive branch grafted in" or..."adopted and made joint heirs"?

Could you clarify why you think a pre-mill has a problem interpreting this verse?

Thanks..
Steve

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by stevenlynch:
Matt,

I don't think that new things are necessarily revealed, It just appears that Old things are being brought to clarity.

Ah, but that's just what the RCC claims. Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[stevenlynch]

Matt,

Let's be respectful please...

I'm sort of at a quandry to understand exactly your problem with what I said.

I never said we were getting NEW revelations....but clearly the OLD ones are being fulfilled.

Anybody who's picked up a newspaper ...(or clicked a news link) should see God's hand on Israel...and moving events toward a time of fulfillment.

The only folks who don't see it...really need a good expositional bible study.

Steve

 

[Tim]

Steve,

What is a "good expositional Bible study"? One that looks at current events as prophetic fulfillments?

As far as modern Israel goes, what prophecy is it fulfilling that hasn't already been fulfilled by Israel as it was restored from captivity and prepared for Christ's first coming?

In Christ,

Tim

 

[stevenlynch]

Tim,

Glad to help you out brother.

Currently Israel is fulfilling the "Dry Bones" vision of Ezekiel 37. 1948 War for Independence and the 6 day war in 1967 were fulfillments of Ezekiel 4 and Leviticus 26.

There's some detail to it that does require a bit of study for the below average student like myself.

Have you ever studied expositionally? I never had REALLY done it until a year and a half ago...found a good teacher. Now, I can't go back to those canned "lowest common denominator" Sunday School magazines.

I can point you to some good places that offer some online studies if you'd like. Most are free.

Steve

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Jesus' eschatology is very simple. Jesus said that at the end of this age He would send forth His angels to gather the wicked out of His kingdom and cast them into a furnace of fire. The righteous, He said, would then shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Why must we always complicate everything? If, as Jesus said, all the wicked are gathered out of the kingdom and cast into a furnace of fire at the end of the age, who will be those who populate the so-called "Millennium" and be deceived after the thousand years? I pose these questions with all sincerity. I am not writing any of this to poke fun at Premillennialists, but quite the contrary. The Scriptures demand an answer. Amillennial scholars have come up with the "two-age model." Jesus spoke of "this age" and "the age to come." His eschatology left no room for a thousand-year gap. I have not had much contact with Historic Premillennialists, but Dispensational Premillennialists consider the kingdom to be one of the most important aspects of eschatology. If this is so, why did Jesus cleverly omit such a kingdom from His preaching? Jesus did speak of the kingdom quite often. However, He spoke of the kingdom as "at hand" (Matthew 4:17). Jesus told the Pharisees that the kingdom of God had come upon them (Matthew 12:28). Was it really the purpose of the Lord to set up a worldly kingdom among the Jews? "When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone." (John 6:15) Also, why did the New Testament writers avoid discussing such an important eschatological topic such as the kingdom as taught by the Dispensational Premillennialists? Paul wrote an outline of the future in very clear language in I Corinthians 15:20-28. He did not mention the reign of Christ has future, but wrote, "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet." (I Corinthians 15:25) According to Paul, the reign of Christ is a present reality, not a future hope. I do believe that there are two phases of the kingdom, one present and one future. I have heard some refer to the church militant and the church triumphant. I like the title of one of George Ladd's books, "The Presence of the Future." I believe that adequately describes the already/not yet tension in the Scriptures. The parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13 very clearly sets forth the two phases of the kingdom. Jesus taught that at the end of the age the angels would gather the unrighteous out of His kingdom, and then the righteous would shine forth like the sun in the kingdom. There is a temporal and eternal aspect of the kingdom of God.

In Hope of Eternal Life...

 

[Matt Black]

Steve, I really don't see how I have been disrespectful or offensive in my last post . All I was saying is that your turn of phrase sounds almost identical to that used by RCs (I have two uncles who are priests and was brought up RC) - namely, that that which RCs call Tradition has always existed (ie Old Truth not New)but has been progressively revealed by God over the centuries to His Church when He has deemed it necessary. So, please explain your problem

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I am Amill. I am not Roman Catholic, I am a truly fundamental independent baptist.

I agree with amillennial doctrine, not because of I agree with Catholic, Lutheran, or St. Augustine.

I understand the Bible very clear, there is only TWO ages of God's plan. We are now in this present age, it covers from creation to the second advent at the end of the present age. Then, the next age at the second advent will be etenality age.

Here's the chart compare between two ages:

PRESENT AGE

* Matt 13:29-30a - Tares(unbelievers) and Wheats
(believers) are growing
together in this present age

* Matt 24:3 - The signs of this present age will
lead to the second advent

* Matt 28:20 - Jesus is with us now till the end
of the age

* Mark 10:30 - built homes, work fields, and have
families in this present age

* Luke 18:3 - materials and reward given to us of
this present age

* Romans 12:2 - We are not to be conformed to the
present world(age)

* 1 Cor. 1:20 - Philosophy of this present age

* 1 Cor. 2:6-8 - Rulers and wisdom of this
present age

* 2 Cor. 4:4 - Satan is god of this present age

* Gal. 1:4 - The present age is evil

* Eph. 1:20-21 - Christ reigns in this present
age

* Eph. 2:2 - the actions or systems of this
present age are evil

* 1 Tim.6:17 - our materialism and money of
this present age

* Titus 2:12 - We are to walk godly life daily
in this present age


NEXT AGE

* Matt 13:30,40 - Tares(unbelievers) shall be
cast away into everlasting fire

* Matt 12:32 - No forgiveness for blasphemy
against the Holy Spirit

* Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30 - Eternal life is reward

* Luke 20:35 - There will be NO marriage in
the next age!

* 1 Cor. 6:9-10 - Unbelievers shall not inherit
the kingdom of God

**1 Cor. 15:50 - NO unbeliever(mortal person) shall enter the eternality kingdom

* Gal. 5:21 - Unbelievers who doing wicked things,
will not inherit the kingdom

* Eph. 1:21 - Christ will reign in the age to come

* Eph. 5:5 - unbelievers shall not inherit the
kingdom of God

* 1 Thess 2:12 - We are commanded to walk godly
worthy for eternality kingdom

* 2 Thess 1:5 - Our faith will make us worthy for
eternality kingdom

* 1 Tim. 6:19 - our hope of eternal life will be
at the next age to come

* 2 Tim. 4:1 - The Lord will bring us to the
eternality kingdom at the second
advent

Dispensationalism teaches there are seven different times or periods from creation to new earth.

But,the Bible teaches us very clear that, God already planned for only TWO ages from begin with Adam at the creation, to the second advent at the end of the age. The present age is fom the creation to the second advent. Then, the next age will be at the second advent, it will be eternality kingom.

Premillennialism teaches that there will be the next two ages in the future - millennial kingdom and then new hevn and new earth.

But, there is only limited time for only 1000 years in the next age, HUH????

The Bible dos not saying it. The Bible teaches us, in the next age will be eternality kingdom after EVERYTHING of the old world things will be pass away include all unbelivers too.

That is simple, NO COMPLEX!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Grasshopper]

Here is part of an article on "this age" and "the age to come." If you can get this straight, it will change your whole Eschatological point of view. Some of you are almost full-preterist and don't know it.


The Jews only believed in two ages. They believed in what they called "this age" and "the age to come."
The Jews believed that this age was the age of Moses and the Law, and was, even as Ice suggests (p. 2), the time when Israel awaited the fulfillment of her prophetic hope. The Jews believed that the age to come would be the age of Messiah and the New Covenant. (cf. Hebrews 2:1-5).
The Jews believed that this age would end, but the age of the Messiah, the age to come, would never end (Isaiah 9:6-9; Luke 1:32-33; Ephesians 3:20-21).
Jesus definitely taught the existence of only two ages, and he used the terms this age and the age to come. He knew he was living in this age, and was anticipating the age to come. Thus, our first point is established. Ice even concurs: "The Jewish perspective of Bible prophecy views history as consisting of two ages. The first was 'this present age,' the age in which Israel was waiting for the coming of Messiah. The second was 'the age to come,' the age in which all promises and covenants would be fulfilled and Israel would enter her promised blessings as a result of Messiah 's coming." (p. 18).
The second point is also established in that Jesus definitely viewed his this age as the age of Moses and the Law. He was sent to establish the promises made to the fathers of Israel (Romans 15:6f). After all, Jesus was, "born of a woman, made under the Law" (Galatians 4:4). Also, Jesus was very much aware of living under the age of Moses and the Law. He said he did not come to destroy it, but to fulfill it, and said it all, not part, not some, or not even most of it, but all of it, had to be fulfilled before it could pass (Matthew 5:17-18)................

The truth is that Jesus said the end of the age he was predicting in Matthew 13 would be the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy! This can only mean that he was predicting the end of the Old Covenant Age of Israel. This means that Matthew 13 has no connection with the Rapture, which supposedly brings the Church Age to an end.


Entire article: http://www.eschatology.org/articles/lastdays/agetocome.htm

We live in what the bible calls the "age to come".

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Dispensationalism teaches there are seven different times or periods from creation to new earth.

Not entirely true. Some dispensationalists teach more than 7, some less. The number is not what makes one a dispensationalist. Adherence to the sine qua non are what do that.

But,the Bible teaches us very clear that, God already planned for only TWO ages from begin with Adam at the creation, to the second advent at the end of the age.

Again, not entirely true, in fact, not even close to true. The Scripture references a time of law and grace, both prior to the return of Christ. That is at least 3 dispensations, economies in which God deals with man according to different features. To say that the Bible very clearly teaches two ages is true but it does not go far enough; it is only partially true. The reality is that the Bible teaches more than two ages.

Premillennialism teaches that there will be the next two ages in the future - millennial kingdom and then new hevn and new earth.

Again, not entirely true. For a dispensationalist, the eternal state is not a dispensation. So, typically, dispensationalism only teaches one age after this one.

But, there is only limited time for only 1000 years in the next age, HUH????

That is the number God came up with. Any complaints have to be directed to him

The Bible teaches us, in the next age will be eternality kingdom after EVERYTHING of the old world things will be pass away include all unbelivers too.

The Bible does not teach that unbelievers will pass away. They will exist forever in eternal conscious torment.

 

[stevenlynch]

I appreciate Pastor Larry's rebut.

DeafPostTrib's comparison list of Present Age/Next Age is a mish mash of selected verses that mix together the Kingdom Age and the Eternal state.

The Kingdom Parables of Matthew 13 are conviently glossed over in the list.

 

[stevenlynch]

Matt,

Maybe we should back up a second and see where the two of us split.

Please don't take offense to any of these questions, I just want a handle on where you stand.

1. Do you believe the bible is God's Word?

2. Do you believe God has in the past Revealed knowledge of his plan of salvation and redemption progressively through Moses, the law, and his prophets?

3. Do you believe some of the knowledge of the bible has been lost either through time/church control/bias/translation or just poor scholarship? Let me clarify here...I'm not saying we don't have the full Gospel...I'm saying that perhaps some of the finer details may have become obscured.

4. Do you believe there is no new information to be learned from the bible even with the tools (concordances, computers, history & archaeology) we have today?

I'm not interested in the fascination of "mysteries" that the RCC has...I'm more interested in the things that are Revealed.

Deu 29:29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." -Matthew 13:40-43

This parable does not agree with the Premillennial interpretation of eschatology. If, as Pastor Larry contends, the age to come is the "Millennium," then only the righteous will inherit this kingdom because the rest will be cast into a furnace of fire. That poses several problems for the Premillennial doctrine since there is a revolt of the nations against the people of God after the thousand years. If the wicked are cast into a furnace of fire at the end of the age, what nations?

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." -II Thessalonians 1:7-10

Paul placed the condemnation of the wicked and the salvation of the righteous "in that day." They are concomitant events, not separated by a thousand years. Christ will come (once) to both destroy the wicked and be glorified in His saints.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" -II Thessalonians 2:1-8

Paul here placed the destruction of the man of sin and our gathering together unto the Lord Jesus Christ, at His coming (singular).

In Hope of Eternal Life...

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by stevenlynch:

Currently Israel is fulfilling the "Dry Bones" vision of Ezekiel 37. 1948 War for Independence and the 6 day war in 1967 were fulfillments of Ezekiel 4 and Leviticus 26.

Steve,
It seems to me that applying these scriptures to the modern state of Israel is to take them out of their historical context. For example, Lev. 26 describes the conditional nature of God's Old Covenant with Israel. His blessings then were based upon their obedience to that covenant. Even though Israel did defeat its Arab enemies in 1948 and 1967 against great numerical odds (like Lev. 26:8 describes), we can't objectively say that the nation was living in obedience to the Old Covenant then, much less the New Covenant (which is applicable today). Touting Israel's military victorys in the last century as fulfillments of this "prophecy" just doesn't hold water here. It's not textually or historically in context.

As far as Ez. 4 goes, it seems to be a prophecy of the Babylonian seige of Israel. I don't see how it would apply to modern Israel at all.

Ezek. 37's "dry bones" is a more disputed text, but again, believe it applies to the restoration of Israel after the Babylonian captivity, their preparation for the first coming of the Messiah, and the coming of the spiritual kingdom that Jesus preached about.

Can you give me a hint why the fulfillments I proposed above don't fit Old Israel but rather modern Israel?

In Christ,

Tim

 

[stevenlynch]

Oh...heck Yeah brotherman.

Glad you asked...you missed the verses in Lev. 26 that are relevant.


Check out this page...go to #6. This prophecy DIRECTLY relates to ancient AND modern Israel.
http://www.100prophecies.org/page3.htm

Ezekiel predicts exactly to the day of May 14, 1948.

This is not some fanciful made up stuff...this is a well documented finding.

the restoration of Jerusalem is predicted on the exact same basis...to the day.

Feel free to peruse the other fulfillments. This is not the only place I've seen the infromation...but this is the best place online that I can point you to them.


By the way...which "Old Covenant" are you ripping up? There's a bunch of covenants in the O.T. so I'm not sure which you speak of.

Steve