Can mankind understand the gospel message?

Still ignoring the text aren't you Larry?

THE TEXT SAYS, ""Therefore, they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THIS TEXT? It specifically tells us why the Jews "could not believe" nor "understand." Yet, you want to create another doctrine that teaches that these same people can't believe nor understand because of whole other reason that is NEVER supported in the text. Romans 8 doesn't even talk about believing or understanding the gospel, much less man's inablity to do so as John 12 does, so I don't know why you even bring it up.

The question is why don't they believe or understand?

I give you a passage that says, "They don't believe because... and they can't understand."

You give me a passage that doesn't even mention the words, "faith, belief, or understanding."

Hmmm, which doctrine is a truly objective observer going to believe? Duh.

Hello Larry. We were all born that way. The question is how do we stop 'being that way' and why aren't some able to stop being that way? Deal with the issue at hand and stop avoiding the text that specifically tells us why the Jews cannot believe.

Apparently, I am the only one who is reading all of the texts because you sure haven't read John 12 yet.

 

No, man lost that when he sinned in the Garden of Eden. </font>[/QUOTE]Scripture?

God specifically describes the curses of the fall and he never mentions mankind's inability to hear, understand and believe the things of God. That is something you have to add to the text based upon your assumptions of what being "spiritually dead" must mean.

 

How much is separating John 8 and Romans 8, where you get your support? Hmmm???????

Can you point out where you have dealt with John 12?

John 12 specifically tells us why the Jews cannot believe. Do you deny that? Or do you think there are two reasons the Jews can't believe? First, they are Total Depraved, and then just to make sure they stay that way they are hardened???? Is that what you believe? Honestly, Larry, I don't know how you explain this redudancy. I'm not trying to attack you here, I just want to know how you explain the fact that your doctrine of TD makes the clear teaching of hardening seem redudant and senseless at best. Please explain.

You're climbing back on to your high horse pastor. I've studied these texts and I don't see the words "belief" or "faith" even contained within them. Do you? How can you hold that this passage should be interpreted to mean that no one can believe or have faith, when the words "belief" or "faith" are not even contained within it? Especially, in light of verses like John 12 and Acts 28 that specifically tell us that they could not "believe" for a temporary, particular and unique reason and even goes on to explain that had they not been hardened that they "might see, hear, understand and repent."

This does not answer the question Larry. Why?

You keep saying "because they were born that way" as if that answers the question, but that is just circular non-sense, because we are all born this way.

The question is why are they still that way?

The scripture specifically tells us why they are still that way.

1. When God held out his hands to them (Romans 10) and longed to gather them, they were UNWILLING! (Matt 23:37)

2. God temporarially hardened them in their unwillingness (John 12, Acts 28, Mark 4, Matt. 13, etc) in order to ingraft the Gentiles (Rom.11; Acts 28:28). And I believe to accomplish his purpose of bringing redemption to the world through their rebellion. (Much like God brought redemption to the Israelites through the hardening of Pharoah's heart.)

All of it? NOT! All of the passages I just listed a very clear and specific in telling us why the Jews of Romans 8 could not believe. The passages you point to don't even contain the word "believe." What kind of hermeneutics do you practice????

Scripture????

I agreed already that we were "born into the family of Satan" and that we were "objects of wrath." But some of us are no longer that way, right? Why?

Because some have not been given the opportunity?
Because God loves some and not others?
Because God's mercy and love is limited to a few?
Because God doesn't really desire for everyone to be saved as He says He is?
Because God is just blowing smoke when he calls EVERYONE to repentance and faith?

Or

Because some were rebellious and unwilling despite God's patient and gracious longsuffering, so He hardened them in order to ingraft the Gentiles and in turn cause the Israelites to be provoked to jealousy so that some of them might be saved as well. (Which the New Testament believers learned has been God's plan all along, thus it was called the "mystery".)

Prove it Larry. How? By dealing with John 12 once and for all. How does hardening and Total depravity co-exist in your system. You still havn't ever addressed this issue even when we discussed it a few months ago. Look back over the logs and you will see that you listed several
reasons hardening wasn't an issue to this debate and I refuted each and everyone one soundly and you never did reply.


Revealing.

(I know you blame it on the fact that you don't want to "waist your time" trying to argue with someone who is unwilling to learn, like ol' Bill, but you would be completely wrong. I am always seeking truth and I am always willing to learn. My refutation of your arguments should not be viewed as my unwillingness to learn, but as my desire to understand and solidify my position. Therefore, if you run away from my responses just because they are difficult for you, or even because you think they are irrelevant then you only give me more confidence that I am right and you are wrong.)

[ April 26, 2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bill ]

 

I can't believe I've just read that. I am truly astonished. </font>[/QUOTE]I can understand how this particular statment would have that effect. When you take something so basic and meanial as simple addition and try to compare it to the gospel, it certainly seems inappropriate.

I may not have chosen this same analogy, but the point I believe he is making is a good one.

The point is that man has reasoning capasity. He has the ability to ponder evidence, exaimine possiblities, consider the costs. All of these examples are seen in scripture as being within man's capasity.

You say you are astonished that he would compare simple addition to the decision to follow Christ, but look at what Jesus used as an analogy.

He said that deciding wether or not to follow him was compariable to a man who had to "consider the cost of building a tower" or "going to war," both of which are within man's given capasity. Is that so much different than sitting down to consider simple addition? Not really. The point is man has the capasity to decide and is asked to do so in the scripture, therefore the ability is strongly implied. To deny it's existance would take a very clear and applicable text, which I don't believe Calvinist's can produce.