Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Not ignoring the text. In case you don't know, John 8 is separated from John 12 by a whole bunch of verses. It means they have different contexts. That text in John 12 has been answered, and yes I have read it. What you have rejected is the answer Christ gave to your question.
How much is separating John 8 and Romans 8, where you get your support? Hmmm???????
Can you point out where you have dealt with John 12?
John 12 specifically tells us why the Jews cannot believe. Do you deny that? Or do you think there are two reasons the Jews can't believe? First, they are Total Depraved, and then just to make sure they stay that way they are hardened???? Is that what you believe? Honestly, Larry, I don't know how you explain this redudancy. I'm not trying to attack you here, I just want to know how you explain the fact that your doctrine of TD makes the clear teaching of hardening seem redudant and senseless at best. Please explain.
Romans 8 doesn't even talk about believing or understanding the gospel, much less man's inablity to do so as John 12 does, so I don't know why you even bring it up.
What??? Did you read John 8??? Those in the flesh "cannot" please God, "are not able" to do so. That talks of an inability and those in the flesh are clearly unsaved because they don't have the Spirit of Christ. Romans 8 is clear. REad it again and study it.
You're climbing back on to your high horse pastor.
I've studied these texts and I don't see the words "belief" or "faith" even contained within them. Do you? How can you hold that this passage should be interpreted to mean that no one can believe or have faith, when the words "belief" or "faith" are not even contained within it? Especially, in light of verses like John 12 and Acts 28 that specifically tell us that they could not "believe" for a temporary, particular and unique reason and even goes on to explain that had they not been hardened that they "might see, hear, understand and repent."
The question is why don't they believe or understand?
Because they are of their Father the devil. That is what Christ said. You don't need to ask me.
This does not answer the question Larry. Why?
You keep saying "because they were born that way" as if that answers the question, but that is just circular non-sense, because we are all born this way.
The question is why are they still that way?
The scripture specifically tells us why they are still that way.
1. When God held out his hands to them (Romans 10) and longed to gather them, they were UNWILLING! (Matt 23:37)
2. God temporarially hardened them in their unwillingness (John 12, Acts 28, Mark 4, Matt. 13, etc) in order to ingraft the Gentiles (Rom.11; Acts 28:28). And I believe to accomplish his purpose of bringing redemption to the world through their rebellion. (Much like God brought redemption to the Israelites through the hardening of Pharoah's heart.)
Hmmm, which doctrine is a truly objective observer going to believe? Duh.
The one that I have put forth because it supported by all of Scripture.
All of it? NOT! All of the passages I just listed a very clear and specific in telling us why the Jews of Romans 8 could not believe. The passages you point to don't even contain the word "believe." What kind of hermeneutics do you practice????
We are all born into the family of Satan and that is why we can't believe. You deny that; Christ affirmed it. Some aren't able to stop because God hasn't given it to them to stop.
Scripture????
I agreed already that we were "born into the family of Satan" and that we were "objects of wrath." But some of us are no longer that way, right? Why?
Because some have not been given the opportunity?
Because God loves some and not others?
Because God's mercy and love is limited to a few?
Because God doesn't really desire for everyone to be saved as He says He is?
Because God is just blowing smoke when he calls EVERYONE to repentance and faith?
Or
Because some were rebellious and unwilling despite God's patient and gracious longsuffering, so He hardened them in order to ingraft the Gentiles and in turn cause the Israelites to be provoked to jealousy so that some of them might be saved as well. (Which the New Testament believers learned has been God's plan all along, thus it was called the "mystery".)
Apparently, I am the only one who is reading all of the texts because you sure haven't read John 12 yet.
Wrong. I have read those texts more than you have probably. That is why I am able to deal with them and bring to light things that you have ignored.
Prove it Larry. How? By dealing with John 12 once and for all. How does hardening and Total depravity co-exist in your system. You still havn't ever addressed this issue even when we discussed it a few months ago. Look back over the logs and you will see that you listed several
reasons hardening wasn't an issue to this debate and I refuted each and everyone one soundly and you never did reply.
Revealing.
(I know you blame it on the fact that you don't want to "waist your time" trying to argue with someone who is unwilling to learn, like ol' Bill, but you would be completely wrong. I am always seeking truth and I am always willing to learn. My refutation of your arguments should not be viewed as my unwillingness to learn, but as my desire to understand and solidify my position. Therefore, if you run away from my responses just because they are difficult for you, or even because you think they are irrelevant then you only give me more confidence that I am right and you are wrong.)
[ April 26, 2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bill ]
