Am I reading this verse right? What do you people think?

First time I've seen you on here. Welcome to the Board.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

I did not mean to throw attention from your question. Just wanted to welcome you. BTW, I am a five-point Calvinist. This will tell you my take on the particular scripture you posted. I have been on the road all day and will answer you in greater detail later.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Hi Mat, and welcome.

IMO you are reading too little into it (by this I mean, you shouldn't stop at "whosoever"). It literally says "all who believe" or in the KJV, "whosoever believeth".

The question is whether or not those who believe do so because they are elect, or because they choose to believe of their own free will. John 3:16 doesn't address that question.

 

Why would God call whosoever to believe if whosoever cannot do so by his own free will?

God doesn't call people to do anything that He doesn't give them the ability to do, especially if He is going to justly judged them with eternal damnation for not doing it.

Can you give me any examples in scripture where God asks people to do that which He doesn't give them the ability to do?

 

Yes, He does.

Joshua 24:19(NASB)
19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins.

and Joshua was right even though the Israelites were commanded to serve the Lord.

Romans 8:8(NASB)
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

and Paul is right even though everyone is commanded to please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14(NASB)
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

and Paul is right even though everyone is commanded to listen to and understand the Word of God.

John 6:44(NASB)
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65(NASB)
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

and Jesus is right even though everyone is commanded to come to Him.

It continually amazes me how people must somehow attempt to claim credit for saving themselves, instead of giving all of the glory to God for salvation and accepting the Biblical truth that salvation is 100% the work of God alone.

 

Npetreley,

That is your question and not the question of Matthew 16:24.

Matthew 16:24,
You have the right interpretation, but of course you know that. And don't be dissuaded by the argument that only the elect can believe. Believing is a built-in function inherent to man. The object of belief is not.

One must be persuaded to believe in Jesus, and persuasion comes by hearing the Word of God.

Hearing is also an inherent capability of man. All that is necessary to effective hearing is acting on what you hear, and when it is the Word of God, Hearing is believing in Jesus. For the Work of the Father is that we believe in His only Begotten son.

 

So it appears that we are back to, "Good people go to heaven, and Bad people go to hell."

 

Hi Tom;
Actually Christ came to save the lost not the good.

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Romanbear

 

John 3:16 is misunderstood by most professors of Christianity. Some of it may relate to
translations which can be interpreted this way or that way.

I will take the much-quoted KJV as an example.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is obvious that decisional regeneration heretics take the word "believeth" as a once-and-for-all "act of faith in Christ" ("decision for Jesus"). Moreover they take the word "have" to mean a once-and-for-all "receiving" of regeneration ("everlasting life"). But I think I have never seen an honest decisional regenerationist who would have showed what the underlying Greek text says, from which the KJV is translated. If he would his argument for decisional regeneration from this verse would be blown to pieces.
First, the Greek does not say "hos an" ("whosoever", KJV) but pâs. In Rom. 10:13 are the two words "hos an", these the inspiring Spirit of God used to denote "whosoever" or "whoever". Pâs in John 3:16 is "every" or "each", it is a singular pronominal adjective.
Secondly, the Greek verb rendered as "believeth" by the KJV is not an aorist verb, also known as a point action verb. It is pisteuôn, a present active participle. This means it is far from a point action. It is best rendered as "believing" or "believer". Even if one chooses to render it "believing" one must have in mind it is a present participle, which stresses ongoing action ("(continuously) believing"), or possibly a state of being ("believer").
Thirdly, the Greek verb translated "have" is neither an aorist verb, but a present active subjunctive, echê. It is best rendered as "possess" with the -ing suffix. If the Holy Spirit had willed He could have inspired an aorist, thus stressing a point action, but He did not.
Thus the verse may be literally rendered as follows:

3:16 For in this manner God loved the world, so that the Son of His, the only begotten, He gave, in order that every one (continuously) believing in Him not should bring perdition to himself, but to the contrary should keep on possessing life eternal;

The verb apolêtai is in fact in the middle voice, thus "...should bring perdition to himself" here, but "should perish" is the same thing. It should be evident to any prudent person that John 3:16 cannot be used to teach decisional regeneration. The grammar and syntax of the God-breathed original does not allow for such perverting of God's word.

Harald

 

This is a good discussion.

The verse all by itself could have more than one intention. It is our job to discover what is the one intention that John meant.

1. John is saying that each and every person in the whole world who has ever lived may believe in Christ.

Those who have never been confronted with the Gospel cannot believe. Paul asked that question. How will they believe in whom they have not heard? So, at the very least, only those who have been confronted with the gospel can believe.

2. John is saying that God will grant eternal life and remove the threat of perishing to all who actually believe.

The verse does say that those who actually do believe will have eternal life and never perish. That is the promise.

Okay, so two interpretations (that I see) are available for study and interaction. So, we leave this for now and examine all the other texts. As we go from one to another, we can weed out interpretations that are not consistent with the others.

 

Just for the record I will give the Greek wording underlying the KJV translation, with Strong's numbers after each word, as well as morphological grammar tags. This way it should be evident to the decisional regenerationist that I speak according to fact and truth. As most know the KJV is translated from the Textus Receptus. Other Greek text editions, such as the Westcott-Hort type Alexandrian editions, have the same wording in this verse.

16 outwV <3779> {ADV} gar <1063> {CONJ} hgaphsen <25> {V-AAI-3S} o <3588> {T-NSM} qeoV <2316> {N-NSM} ton <3588> {T-ASM} kosmon <2889> {N-ASM} wste <5620> {CONJ} ton <3588> {T-ASM} uion <5207> {N-ASM} autou <846> {P-GSM} ton <3588> {T-ASM} monogenh <3439> {A-ASM} edwken <1325> {V-AAI-3S} ina <2443> {CONJ} paV <3956> {A-NSM} o <3588> {T-NSM} pisteuwn <4100> {V-PAP-NSM} eiV <1519> {PREP} auton <846> {P-ASM} mh <3361> {PRT -N} apolhtai <622> {V-2AMS-3S} all <235> {CONJ} ech <2192> {V-PAS-3S} zwhn <2222> {N-ASF} aiwnion <166> {A-ASF}

In line 4 is to be found the Greek word pâs, which the KJV translators rendered "whosoever". It's Strong's number is 3956. Its grammar tag informs that it is an adjective (pronominal), nominative, singular, masculine. After it is the Gr. word ho, a definite article (also nom., sing., masc.). In line 5 is the verb pisteuôn, weakly translated "believeth" by the KJV. It's number is 4100, and its grammar tag informs it is a present active participle, nominative, singular, masculine. This is positive proof that it is not a point action (aorist) verb, like as decisional regeneration heretics would have it to be. In line 7 is to be found the verb echê, #2192, a present active subjunctive, 3 person singular, neither a point action verb. The inspiring Spirit of truth is no teacher of decisional regeneration or faith regeneration.

Harald

 

Preach the word,
I see not one difference in the two "interpretations" you listed. They are the same meaning stated two different ways.

 

Nevermind

 

The first meaning I gave is that which is offered by noncalvinists, I think.

The second is how calvinists approach it.

___


Harald, those who believe salvation (justification, regeneration, etc.) is accomplished by faith alone in Christ alone are not heretics. To deny the role of faith is heretical. Are you by any chance a Primitive Baptist?

 

So the 'good' have no worries? Then they are saved by their 'goodness', of course this is relative to what is good and what is not.

I believe we get caught up in thinking that God saves sinners and that this group is the "lost" in reality all are "lost" and it is from this group that the elect are taken. There is no such thing as a man who is not a sinner, and until being saved, there is none who are not lost.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

PTW, I am not a Primitive Baptist. As far as I know there are no such Baptists in my country nor has there ever been. I think they can be found in your country, and most of those who call themselves Primitive Baptists today believe a doctrine which is called Time Salvation or Conditional Time Salvation, which is heresy in the light of the truth of Scripture.

I do not deny the role of faith in the scheme of God's salvation of sinners, it is just that subjective faith does not in any way bring about or accomplish the justification of a sinner in God's sight. Respecting justification I believe precisely as the Baptists of old, William Gadsby, John Warburton, Samuel Richardson, John Brine et.al. They happened to belong to the school of Paul the apostle, who was taught by Christ Jesus the Righteous. As for the regeneration of sinners I believe just as the word of God teaches, and as some past day Baptists believed. And the Scripture does not teach decisional regeneration as free-willers do, or faith regeneration or gospel regeneration as most "Calvinists" do. The word of God teaches instantaneous and sovereign Holy Spirit regeneration apart from means. Just as Adam and Eve were quickened, thusly have all other saved sinners been regenerated, apart from the written word of God preached or read, but yet in accordance with what the sacred word teaches about regeneration. Subjective faith in Christ, even when it is Holy Spirit wrought, as distinct from a counterfeit faith, does not in any way participate in regeneration of a dead sinner. Spiritual faith in Christ Jesus is a part of the fruit of the Spirit, just as godly love and hope etc. How can that faith be necessary in order to the new birth? It is so only in a twisted theological system, and in thoughts of men of corrupted minds. The Spirit of God operates sovereignly in quickening elect redeemed sinners who are dead in trespasses and sins, under the imputed righteousness of Christ. The biblical order is

1. justification before God by Christ's blood and law-fulfilling righteousness having been legally imputed strictly by sovereign divine imputation
2. sovereign and instantaneous Holy Spirit regeneration apart from means on the footing of the resurrection of Christ Jesus from among dead ones

So far subjective spiritual faith has not participated in the least. It is evidently called into fruitful exercise by the Holy Spirit upon the true Gospel coming into the sinner not in word only, but also in power and in Holy Spirit, 1Thess. 1:5-6. So called saving faith in Christ does not cause a sinner to be justified before God the Judge, nor does regeneration depend on it. The false teaching which teaches subjective faith in Christ justifies a sinner before God is akin to Romanism, which teaches infusa gratia. Sola Fide was to my knowledge developed by Martin Luther the heretic, and is a subtle form of the papists' infusa gratia heresy. Rom. 3:24 clearly teaches justification "without a cause" - dôrean, by God's grace, by means of the redemption in Christ Jesus. Any teaching which militates against this Divine scheme of justification of sinners where Christ Jesus the Lord has the preeminence is of the antichrist, of the father of lies. The old Particular Baptists were not followers of Luther and his Protestant companions in their solafidism, but were followers of Paul and Him who gave the doctrine of justification to him in its final form as written down in the Holy Scriptures, even the Lord Christ Jesus.

Ye err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.

Harald