Am I reading this verse right? What do you people think?

[Matthew 16:24]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Some people today add to what the Bible says. Some people want to believe that the Bible says, " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, so that only the elect should not perish, but have everlasting life" The Bible does not say that though.

Main Entry: who·so·ev·er
Pronunciation: "hü-s&-'we-v&r
Function: pronoun
Date: 13th century
: WHOEVER

The definition of “whoever” is:
Main Entry: who·ev·er
Pronunciation: hü-'e-v&r
Function: pronoun
Date: 13th century
: whatever person : no matter who -- used in any grammatical relation except that of a possessive sells to whoever has the money to buy

According to Webster whoever means “no matter who”

The Bible actually states that anyone who believes in Jesus is saved. Now, this specifically destroys the idea that God "calls" only the elect.

Am I reading too much into this passage or do you see it the same way?

[ March 16, 2003, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: Matthew 16:24 ]

 

[Frogman]

First time I've seen you on here. Welcome to the Board.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Matthew 16:24]

Thanks for the kind words Bro. Dallas

I am more of a reader than a poster.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Matthew 16:24:
Thanks for the kind words Bro. Dallas

I am more of a reader than a poster.

I did not mean to throw attention from your question. Just wanted to welcome you. BTW, I am a five-point Calvinist. This will tell you my take on the particular scripture you posted. I have been on the road all day and will answer you in greater detail later.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[npetreley]

Hi Mat, and welcome.

Originally posted by Matthew 16:24:
Am I reading too much into this passage or do you see it the same way?

IMO you are reading too little into it (by this I mean, you shouldn't stop at "whosoever"). It literally says "all who believe" or in the KJV, "whosoever believeth".

The question is whether or not those who believe do so because they are elect, or because they choose to believe of their own free will. John 3:16 doesn't address that question.

 

[William C]

Why would God call whosoever to believe if whosoever cannot do so by his own free will?

God doesn't call people to do anything that He doesn't give them the ability to do, especially if He is going to justly judged them with eternal damnation for not doing it.

Can you give me any examples in scripture where God asks people to do that which He doesn't give them the ability to do?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
God doesn't call people to do anything that He doesn't give them the ability to do

Yes, He does.

Joshua 24:19(NASB)
19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins.

and Joshua was right even though the Israelites were commanded to serve the Lord.

Romans 8:8(NASB)
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

and Paul is right even though everyone is commanded to please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14(NASB)
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

and Paul is right even though everyone is commanded to listen to and understand the Word of God.

John 6:44(NASB)
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65(NASB)
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

and Jesus is right even though everyone is commanded to come to Him.

It continually amazes me how people must somehow attempt to claim credit for saving themselves, instead of giving all of the glory to God for salvation and accepting the Biblical truth that salvation is 100% the work of God alone.

 

[Yelsew]

Npetreley,

The question is whether or not those who believe do so because they are elect, or because they choose to believe of their own free will. John 3:16 doesn't address that question.

That is your question and not the question of Matthew 16:24.

Matthew 16:24,
You have the right interpretation, but of course you know that. And don't be dissuaded by the argument that only the elect can believe. Believing is a built-in function inherent to man. The object of belief is not.

One must be persuaded to believe in Jesus, and persuasion comes by hearing the Word of God.

Hearing is also an inherent capability of man. All that is necessary to effective hearing is acting on what you hear, and when it is the Word of God, Hearing is believing in Jesus. For the Work of the Father is that we believe in His only Begotten son.

 

[Matthew 16:24]

IMO you are reading too little into it (by this I mean, you shouldn't stop at "whosoever"). It literally says "all who believe" or in the KJV, "whosoever believeth".

The question is whether or not those who believe do so because they are elect, or because they choose to believe of their own free will. John 3:16 doesn't address that question.

That is what I posted from the KJV 1611, That is the only Bible I read.

John 3:16 does address who is whosoever. It is anyone, the entire population on earth could be whosoever.
Are you or anyone else going to tell me that whosoever does not mean whosoever and it means whosoever is this group of people?

The purpose of this post was to see how Calvinist would argue that it means something else.

Q. What about predestination? God has already selected the ones He wants to be saved so He predestinates them to be saved. Doesn't the Bible say that God predestinates people?

A. God foreknew who would respond to the gospel call and predestinated them based on FOREKNOWLEDGE--not that He selected some to be saved and some for burning. God allows wicked people to exist in order to accomplish His purposes. Every man is an evil creature--we need affliction that we may learn to fear the Lord (see Psalm 107 in its entirety). The vessels of wrath accomplish that purpose.



Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Psalms 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

Q. What about unconditional election? Doesn't our sovereign God select who He wants to go to heaven just because He feels like it? Doesn't He pre-ordain peope to hell just because he feels like it?

A. No. It is God's will that ALL men should be saved. He strives with men. A man has to climb over heavenly obstacles in order to go to hell--



1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon ALL them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, WHOSOEVER believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:13 For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

GOD WANTS ALL MEN TO REPENT!

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 18:30-32 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Q. What about "limited atonement"? Jesus only died for the sins of the elect, right?

A. Wrong. Jesus did not just die for the sins of the elect, He died for the sins of ALL--



1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE world.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for ALL, then were all dead:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

 

[TomMann]

So it appears that we are back to, "Good people go to heaven, and Bad people go to hell."

 

[romanbear]

Hi Tom;

Actually Christ came to save the lost not the good.

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Romanbear

 

[Harald]

John 3:16 is misunderstood by most professors of Christianity. Some of it may relate to
translations which can be interpreted this way or that way.

I will take the much-quoted KJV as an example.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is obvious that decisional regeneration heretics take the word "believeth" as a once-and-for-all "act of faith in Christ" ("decision for Jesus"). Moreover they take the word "have" to mean a once-and-for-all "receiving" of regeneration ("everlasting life"). But I think I have never seen an honest decisional regenerationist who would have showed what the underlying Greek text says, from which the KJV is translated. If he would his argument for decisional regeneration from this verse would be blown to pieces.
First, the Greek does not say "hos an" ("whosoever", KJV) but pâs. In Rom. 10:13 are the two words "hos an", these the inspiring Spirit of God used to denote "whosoever" or "whoever". Pâs in John 3:16 is "every" or "each", it is a singular pronominal adjective.
Secondly, the Greek verb rendered as "believeth" by the KJV is not an aorist verb, also known as a point action verb. It is pisteuôn, a present active participle. This means it is far from a point action. It is best rendered as "believing" or "believer". Even if one chooses to render it "believing" one must have in mind it is a present participle, which stresses ongoing action ("(continuously) believing"), or possibly a state of being ("believer").
Thirdly, the Greek verb translated "have" is neither an aorist verb, but a present active subjunctive, echê. It is best rendered as "possess" with the -ing suffix. If the Holy Spirit had willed He could have inspired an aorist, thus stressing a point action, but He did not.
Thus the verse may be literally rendered as follows:

3:16 For in this manner God loved the world, so that the Son of His, the only begotten, He gave, in order that every one (continuously) believing in Him not should bring perdition to himself, but to the contrary should keep on possessing life eternal;

The verb apolêtai is in fact in the middle voice, thus "...should bring perdition to himself" here, but "should perish" is the same thing. It should be evident to any prudent person that John 3:16 cannot be used to teach decisional regeneration. The grammar and syntax of the God-breathed original does not allow for such perverting of God's word.

Harald

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
[qb] God doesn't call people to do anything that He doesn't give them the ability to do

Yes, He does.

Joshua 24:19(NASB)
19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins.

and Joshua was right even though the Israelites were commanded to serve the Lord.

Look at the whole passage:
Serve the LORD alone.

15 But if you are unwilling to serve the LORD, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the LORD." 16 The people replied, "We would never forsake the LORD and worship other gods. 17 For the LORD our God is the one who rescued us and our ancestors from slavery in the land of Egypt. He performed mighty miracles before our very eyes. As we traveled through the wilderness among our enemies, he preserved us. 18 It was the LORD who drove out the Amorites and the other nations living here in the land. So we, too, will serve the LORD, for he alone is our God." 19 Then Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy and jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve other gods, he will turn against you and destroy you, even though he has been so good to you." 21 But the people answered Joshua, saying, "No, we are determined to serve the LORD!" 22 "You are accountable for this decision," Joshua said. "You have chosen to serve the LORD.""Yes," they replied, "we are accountable." 23 "All right then," Joshua said, "destroy the idols among you, and turn your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel." 24 The people said to Joshua, "We will serve the LORD our God. We will obey him alone."25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day at Shechem, committing them to a permanent and binding contract between themselves and the LORD. 26 Joshua recorded these things in the Book of the Law of God. As a reminder of their agreement, he took a huge stone and rolled it beneath the oak tree beside the Tabernacle of the LORD. 27 Joshua said to all the people, "This stone has heard everything the LORD said to us. It will be a witness to testify against you if you go back on your word to God."

Romans 8:8(NASB)
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

and Paul is right even though everyone is commanded to please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14(NASB)
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

and Paul is right even though everyone is commanded to listen to and understand the Word of God.

John 6:44(NASB)
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65(NASB)
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

and Jesus is right even though everyone is commanded to come to Him.

Thanks for proving my point that God never commands people to do that which he doesn't give them the ability to do.

People can't be righteous on their own but God demands righteousness and then provides the ability to gain righteous. Not through the works of the law, but through faith.

People can't please God without faith. God grants people the ability to have faith.

People can't understand the deep truths of God without the indwelling of his Spirit so God sends his Spirit to indwell those with faith.

Like I said God always provides a way to accomplish what he commands of his creation.

It continually amazes me how people must somehow attempt to claim credit for saving themselves, instead of giving all of the glory to God for salvation and accepting the Biblical truth that salvation is 100% the work of God alone.

It amazes me that no matter how many times you are corrected about what we as Arminians believe about God recieving all the glory and the credit for our salvation that you continually make this accusation. This accusation no more applies to Arminians than the accusation of God being the one responsible for man's rebellion and distruction applies to Calvinism.

If you can say, "God is completely responsible for man's believing, but man is still held responsible for refusing to believe." Then we can say, "Man is completely responsible for and capable of beleiving, but God receives all the glory when He does."

No Arminian that I am aware of thinks that our faith is worthy of boasting in. Paul didn't (look in Rom. 3:27-31). Boasting is linked to the striving to gain righteousness by the works of the Law instead of by Grace through faith.

 

[Daniel David]

This is a good discussion.

The verse all by itself could have more than one intention. It is our job to discover what is the one intention that John meant.

1. John is saying that each and every person in the whole world who has ever lived may believe in Christ.

Those who have never been confronted with the Gospel cannot believe. Paul asked that question. How will they believe in whom they have not heard? So, at the very least, only those who have been confronted with the gospel can believe.

2. John is saying that God will grant eternal life and remove the threat of perishing to all who actually believe.

The verse does say that those who actually do believe will have eternal life and never perish. That is the promise.

Okay, so two interpretations (that I see) are available for study and interaction. So, we leave this for now and examine all the other texts. As we go from one to another, we can weed out interpretations that are not consistent with the others.

 

[Harald]

Just for the record I will give the Greek wording underlying the KJV translation, with Strong's numbers after each word, as well as morphological grammar tags. This way it should be evident to the decisional regenerationist that I speak according to fact and truth. As most know the KJV is translated from the Textus Receptus. Other Greek text editions, such as the Westcott-Hort type Alexandrian editions, have the same wording in this verse.

16 outwV <3779> {ADV} gar <1063> {CONJ} hgaphsen <25> {V-AAI-3S} o <3588> {T-NSM} qeoV <2316> {N-NSM} ton <3588> {T-ASM} kosmon <2889> {N-ASM} wste <5620> {CONJ} ton <3588> {T-ASM} uion <5207> {N-ASM} autou <846> {P-GSM} ton <3588> {T-ASM} monogenh <3439> {A-ASM} edwken <1325> {V-AAI-3S} ina <2443> {CONJ} paV <3956> {A-NSM} o <3588> {T-NSM} pisteuwn <4100> {V-PAP-NSM} eiV <1519> {PREP} auton <846> {P-ASM} mh <3361> {PRT -N} apolhtai <622> {V-2AMS-3S} all <235> {CONJ} ech <2192> {V-PAS-3S} zwhn <2222> {N-ASF} aiwnion <166> {A-ASF}

In line 4 is to be found the Greek word pâs, which the KJV translators rendered "whosoever". It's Strong's number is 3956. Its grammar tag informs that it is an adjective (pronominal), nominative, singular, masculine. After it is the Gr. word ho, a definite article (also nom., sing., masc.). In line 5 is the verb pisteuôn, weakly translated "believeth" by the KJV. It's number is 4100, and its grammar tag informs it is a present active participle, nominative, singular, masculine. This is positive proof that it is not a point action (aorist) verb, like as decisional regeneration heretics would have it to be. In line 7 is to be found the verb echê, #2192, a present active subjunctive, 3 person singular, neither a point action verb. The inspiring Spirit of truth is no teacher of decisional regeneration or faith regeneration.

Harald

 

[Yelsew]

Preach the word,
I see not one difference in the two "interpretations" you listed. They are the same meaning stated two different ways.

 

[ruthigirl]

Nevermind

 

[Daniel David]

The first meaning I gave is that which is offered by noncalvinists, I think.

The second is how calvinists approach it.

___


Harald, those who believe salvation (justification, regeneration, etc.) is accomplished by faith alone in Christ alone are not heretics. To deny the role of faith is heretical. Are you by any chance a Primitive Baptist?

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by romanbear:
Hi Tom;

Actually Christ came to save the lost not the good.

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Romanbear

So the 'good' have no worries? Then they are saved by their 'goodness', of course this is relative to what is good and what is not.

I believe we get caught up in thinking that God saves sinners and that this group is the "lost" in reality all are "lost" and it is from this group that the elect are taken. There is no such thing as a man who is not a sinner, and until being saved, there is none who are not lost.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Harald]

PTW, I am not a Primitive Baptist. As far as I know there are no such Baptists in my country nor has there ever been. I think they can be found in your country, and most of those who call themselves Primitive Baptists today believe a doctrine which is called Time Salvation or Conditional Time Salvation, which is heresy in the light of the truth of Scripture.

I do not deny the role of faith in the scheme of God's salvation of sinners, it is just that subjective faith does not in any way bring about or accomplish the justification of a sinner in God's sight. Respecting justification I believe precisely as the Baptists of old, William Gadsby, John Warburton, Samuel Richardson, John Brine et.al. They happened to belong to the school of Paul the apostle, who was taught by Christ Jesus the Righteous. As for the regeneration of sinners I believe just as the word of God teaches, and as some past day Baptists believed. And the Scripture does not teach decisional regeneration as free-willers do, or faith regeneration or gospel regeneration as most "Calvinists" do. The word of God teaches instantaneous and sovereign Holy Spirit regeneration apart from means. Just as Adam and Eve were quickened, thusly have all other saved sinners been regenerated, apart from the written word of God preached or read, but yet in accordance with what the sacred word teaches about regeneration. Subjective faith in Christ, even when it is Holy Spirit wrought, as distinct from a counterfeit faith, does not in any way participate in regeneration of a dead sinner. Spiritual faith in Christ Jesus is a part of the fruit of the Spirit, just as godly love and hope etc. How can that faith be necessary in order to the new birth? It is so only in a twisted theological system, and in thoughts of men of corrupted minds. The Spirit of God operates sovereignly in quickening elect redeemed sinners who are dead in trespasses and sins, under the imputed righteousness of Christ. The biblical order is

1. justification before God by Christ's blood and law-fulfilling righteousness having been legally imputed strictly by sovereign divine imputation
2. sovereign and instantaneous Holy Spirit regeneration apart from means on the footing of the resurrection of Christ Jesus from among dead ones

So far subjective spiritual faith has not participated in the least. It is evidently called into fruitful exercise by the Holy Spirit upon the true Gospel coming into the sinner not in word only, but also in power and in Holy Spirit, 1Thess. 1:5-6. So called saving faith in Christ does not cause a sinner to be justified before God the Judge, nor does regeneration depend on it. The false teaching which teaches subjective faith in Christ justifies a sinner before God is akin to Romanism, which teaches infusa gratia. Sola Fide was to my knowledge developed by Martin Luther the heretic, and is a subtle form of the papists' infusa gratia heresy. Rom. 3:24 clearly teaches justification "without a cause" - dôrean, by God's grace, by means of the redemption in Christ Jesus. Any teaching which militates against this Divine scheme of justification of sinners where Christ Jesus the Lord has the preeminence is of the antichrist, of the father of lies. The old Particular Baptists were not followers of Luther and his Protestant companions in their solafidism, but were followers of Paul and Him who gave the doctrine of justification to him in its final form as written down in the Holy Scriptures, even the Lord Christ Jesus.

Ye err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God.

Harald