Do any Baptist churches believe that Speaking in Tongues is for today ??

Lorelei,

1. I agree that an important purpose of all the gifts is the edification of the body, but where the improper use of any of the gifts would cause division the church is torn down rather than built up. Hence our cautious approach, which we believe is in keeping with Paul's instruction regarding the gifts in 1Cor. 12-14. As for our not "requiring" them to use the gift of tongues, I would only say that I do not "require" anyone to use his gifts. I teach him what the Scripture says about his gifts(s) and encourage Him to use them, and then I allow him the freedom to use his gifts as the Spirit leads him. Besides, I wasn't talking about whether or not such a person used the gift of tongues in the life of the church, I was simply referring to our approach to its use in a worship service and noted that no one has felt compelled to use this gift in that context.

2. I agree that one with the gift of tongues should pray for the gift of interpretation, but that doesn't mean God will necassarily give it to him. This is why I spoke of "our insistence that the person either have the gift of interpretation himself or know someone in the congregation who does."

3. In 1Cor.13:10 Paul says with reference tongues, e.g., that "when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." After this, he says in verse 12 that "now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." Paul's reference to "then" in verse 12 refers back to the "when" of verse 10. Thus Paul is equating the time "when" that which is perfect has come with the time "then" when we will see "face to face" and when this "in part" way of knowing will be replaced by knowing just as we are known. This time of seeing "face to face" refers to our encounter with Christ at His return. Thus I conclude that the gift of tongues will cease when Christ returns and that therefore it (along with the other gifts) are to be for the edification of the Body of Christ until that time.

Pastork

 

Hi Lorelei:

You asked "What tongue were you speaking?"

In reference to Acts chapter 2; the falling of the Holy Ghost on
the believers brought forth the speaking in tongues and actions
that caused onlookers to assume that there was drunkedness
involved. Vs. 17 attests to the spirit being poured out in the last
days as the prophet Joel spoke of. We are living in the "last
days".

I do not claim to be an interpreter ....even of my own speaking.
Not all are; as this verse reveals:

1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to
another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of
tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues

Remember the two kinds of tongues speaking. That which
accompanies the baptism is edification to God and whereas
there are no hearers (as in my case), interpretation is not
necessary. This is a prayer language; usually done in private.
I was alone in my home when this happened.

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost
came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

I would offer a prepared testimony of my experience if anyone
is interested. I am not a Baptist so maybe this thread is
inappropriate for that. I would like to hear other's experiences
also.

 

Artimaeus,

In order to keep this discussion from growing so big at any one time that I cannot keep up with it, I will take up one example that you have given to serve as a staring point:

TEACHING

Scripture: The ability to communicate God's word (immediately) when no such ability existed before.
Experience: Learned skill. Many have it, including the lost.
My observation: Scripture and Expericence do not match.


You have cited this in respone to my asking for a demonstration from Scripture of the evidence for your denial that there are "ANY" spiritual gifts for today. Yet, you have not cited a single text of Scripture. For example, with respect to teaching, you have not shown from Scripture that the gift of teaching can only be given to someone who has never had any natural ability to teach before. Next, you have decided from your own experience that, since teaching may be a "learned skill" that many have, this doesn't match what you say the spiritual gift of teaching must be. This, then, is your case that the spiritual gift of teaching is no longer for today. However, haven't people always been able to learn to teach, even in the first century? And wouldn't your reasoning then dictate that there was never a gift of teaching? And wouldn't this fail to "match" with Scripture?

Pastork

 

Artimaeus,

Would you also include in your list of observations that :

Scripture: "Whosoever believes in me shall never die"
Experience: Everyone dies.
Observation: Scripture and Experience do not match.

Analogy: The bible must be wrong ?

 

(quote)

I don't know about you but I have eternal life and when the day dcomes
taht I am absent from the body I will be present with the Lord.
Analogy: The bible must be wrong ?

Same here and therefore maybe we can't be making
comparisions of observations of the scripture vs.
experience. Tongues are for today.

 

Hey singer,
I'm sorry about misunderstanding your thread.
Keep singing!!!

 

People have, indeed, always had the ability to teach and the ability to learn. That is my point. The early church received somthing different. Something so extraordinary, so miraculous, so different than this, that it qualified to be called a "Gift of the Holy Spirit" There is no scirptural evidence for my denial of gifts for today except the scriptural evidence of what gifts were. If we don't have what the scripture says then we don't have the gifts.

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Prophecy, faith, minister, teaching, exhorting, giving, ruling, showing mercy, are all things that ordinary, normal, caring people can do. Even the heathen, apostate, occult, and atheist, can and do practice such things to various degrees. Some are even very good at it. Carl Segan was an excellent teacher, Billy Graham is a most accomplished evangelist, Ted Turner is very good at giving, Joseph Smith was an outstanding leader, so was Hitler (an evil leader to be sure). How is the gift different with people who are gifted by the Holy Spirit than ordinary people who are not gifted but still are good at that particular characteristic?

I Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

The answer to these rhetorical questions is, "No" Ignored by all who claim tongues is for everyone. The evidence for the frequency of gifts seems nowadays to be based on the ease with which someone can emulate it with or without the gift. A gift is freely given, not earned, learned, or deserved. Someone can do something so profound that people are amazed, not merely impressed.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Your definition of what a gift is must be something more than the ordinary, natural, human ability. Otherwise, how would it be a special "gift"?

Why did you pick teaching instead of Healing, Tongues, or Miracles? It is because that is easier to emulate and claim. It is impossible to take a man dead for three days and restore his life, it is impossible to immediately heal a physically deforming birth defect, it is impossible for a man who hasn't learned a foreign language to suddenly begin speaking it fluently. The only explanation for these events are that they are from God. There is no reason to believe that the other gifts were any different. When practiced they resulted in impossible results. Impossible, that is, without the Holy Spirit. That was their purpose, to demonstate to everyone that God was in what they were doing.

 

I would not include that, nor would I conclude that. I would have said it this way:

Scripture: "Whosoever believes in me shall never die"
Experience: People claim they will never physically die
Observation: People die, therefore, their claim is wrong and Jesus must be talking about a different kind of death.

Analogy: The Bible must be right.

The Bible is 100% correct 100% of the time. If the Bible says one thing and I am thinking another then I change my way of thinking. I think you may be misunderstanding what I am trying to say. The Bible teaches that the gifts are miraculous in the way they are received (Through the Holy Spirit as He sees fit). They are miraculous in the way they are exhibited. They are miraculous in their results. The discussion isn't whether they were such in the early church (they were). The discussion is whether they are such in the church today. They only way you or I can evaluate what people say is to compare it with scripture. I am saying that the vague, minor, hidden, and copiable claims for gifts today do not fit the clear, onvious, outward, amazing demonstrations of gifts in the Bible. There is no good reason to believe that the claims of "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" today is any different than the claims of talking in tongues by Haitian Voodoo practitioners.

 

So as I said, the Bible doesn't say that, the Bible says "when perfection comes." You have just interpreted it to mean Christ, it isn't as clear as you would like to think.

We believe Paul was referring to the completion of the New Testament, Christ's perfect revelation of His New Covenant with us.

James 1:23-25 also refers to the word as the perfect law of liberty and compares it to a mirror as well.

It doesn't do justice to God's Word to state your interpretation in place of the words that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to use.

~Lorelei

 

Pastork,

The first 23 verses of chapter 14 deals with the fact that tongues are not fruitful if there is no interpretation. There are many examples given as to how this is so.

Paul didn't say pray and "hope" that God gives you the interpretation, he said in verses 13-15 that we should pray so that we can pray with our spirit and understanding.

~Lorelei

 

The onlookers also understood every word they said. Someone knew what language they were speaking, it even lists them! You seemed to skip right over those. It is explained in verses 5-12, inbetween the baptism and the accusations that they were drunk, how convenient for your belief to jump from one to the next without mentioning this important fact.

No actually I don't remember because the Bible never teaches this. It is assumed by people who have been taught this that there are two types of tongues and they actually use scriptures from 1 Corinthians to prove it when 1 Corinthians was dealing specifically with the gifts of the spirit. All the gifts were made for was to edify the body, not the self at home. (1 Cor 12:7)

Then you should not even be posting in this thread, this is a Baptist only section of the board.

~Lorelei

 

Well, I am off on vacation, sorry guys but I won't be able to participate for awhile.

~Lorelei

 

And so much for that polite exclusion of other believers.

We've been visiting a Baptist Church and have directed our
daughter and children there. I may have to reconsider my
actions due to the ambiguous and uninviting attitude by those
who claim a higher calling than others; and all within the Baptist
Church....?????

I withdraw my offer to share what was revealed to me through
much study and prayer of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit via the
tongues experience.

 

Do you consider the exclusion of a non Baptist from a Baptist forum impolite? I would exclude Billy Graham from voting in my local church. Is that impolite? No, he is not qualified because he is not a member. Join a local church because you believe what they are saying is correct, not so that you can guide them into the truth. It seems to me that you are the one being exclusionary when you reject other believers who don't accept your tongues experience as legitimate. People are always welcome at my church, any person, with any belief system. Jews, Muslims, Charismatics, Baptists, Jehova's Witnesses, etc, are all welcome to come and learn. They aren't however, welcome to come and say they would like to be a member of our church if we would only change our doctrine to fit them. I am also quite certain that, "those who claim a higher calling than others" are not ALL in the Baptist churches. Reread your last paragraph.

 

Artimaeus:

You've compelled me to again post where I'm not welcome to people
I'm not welcome to share my views with. For years I've considered the
Baptist people as near my likeing as I could find. I shared my unwelcome
views with the Catholics and Members of the Cult I was raised in ....to no
avail on another forum also. You can have a closed forum here; and
retain a closed mind.

Humorously, (Or maybe it is Ironical) and definitely it is Futile; the attempts
on these Forums to bring the body of Christ together. We're each of our
own mind and so it will remain.

I don't recall rejecting your favored members over the tongues issue.
Cara had a legitimate question and I was sharing what I found to be the
case through much prayer.

I'm glad Muslims are welcome at your church...I'm sure I would
be too if I'd just keep my head shut and take your word for
everything. It appears the Baptist churches are also divided
over the tongues issue. There is no answer is there ?

Maybe this is why I'm not a member of a church and have
to marvel at those who are astute in their claim to have
answers when there are none.

Yes I consider the response I got as impolite. I hope you and
Lorilei are'nt on the Welcoming Committee of any church.
It's not your gift. Can you recommend another denomination ?

 

[

The gift of knowledge has. We don't need special words of knowledge any longer, for we have them written down in the Word of God. Remember the people alive at that time didn't have the New Testament around to explain the new covenant to them, now we do and that gift is no longer necessary.

I didn't say everything was perfect, I said the scriptures were perfect. Do you disagree with the fact that the New Testament is the perfect Word of God?

You do realize that the study notes were not inspired by the Holy Spirit as were the original texts do you not?

I wasn't taught this theory, someone showed me these verses and what they thought they meant. I studied them and the other passages that they were referring to. I let the Spirit guide me in my studies. It's amazing that people can't believe the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of the words he inspired but will believe the Spirit will produce fruitless and worthless babble for no apparant reason.

~Lorelei