Faith is not a work

romanbear · Mar 23, 2003

Hi everyone;

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If faith is considered a work then how is it that it is dead without works?
Romanbear

KenH · Mar 23, 2003

James is talking about faith as in believing certain facts as his reference to devils indicates. The faith we are talking about in this forum is saving faith in trusting in the finished work of Jesus Christ which the devils that James references do not do.

Nice try though.

Yelsew · Mar 23, 2003

Ken,
Then you are redefining faith.

There are no differences in faith, but there are different conditions and manners in which faith is manifest. No, FAITH is not a work!

The definition of work is "the expenditure of energy to accomplish a specific result". A work for example could be the attendence of a worship service. Physical manifestation of Worship, such as, the many forms of "priestly duties" is a work.

The definition of faith:

faith, n.
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theol. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.
Click to expand...

WORK, n., adj., v.,
noun:
1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.
2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.
3. productive or operative activity.
4. employment, as in some form of industry, esp. as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.
5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.
6. materials, things, etc., on which one is working or is to work.
7. the result of exertion, labor, or activity; a deed or performance.
8. a product of exertion, labor, or activity: musical works.
9. an engineering structure, as a building or bridge.
10. a building, wall, trench, or the like, constructed or made as a means of fortification.
11. works,
a. (used with a sing. or pl. v.) a place or establishment for manufacturing (often used in combination): ironworks.
b. the working parts of a machine: the works of a watch.
c. Theol. righteous deeds.
12. Physics. force times the distance through which it acts; specifically, the transference of energy equal to the product of the component of a force that acts in the direction of the motion of the point of application of the force and the distance through which the point of application moves.
13. at work,
a. working, as at one's job: He's at work on a new novel.
b. in action or operation: to see the machines at work.
14. gum up the works, Slang. to spoil something, as through blundering or stupidity: The surprise party was all arranged, but her little brother gummed up the works and told her.
15. in the works, in preparation or being planned: A musical version of the book is in the works.
16. make short work of, to finish or dispose of quickly: We made short work of the chocolate layer cake.
17. out of work, unemployed; jobless: Many people in the area were out of work.
18. shoot the works, Slang. to spend all one's resources: Let's shoot the works and order the crêpes suzette.
19. the works, Informal.
a. everything; all related items or matters: a hamburger with the works.
b. harsh or cruel treatment: to give someone the works.
adjective:
20. of, for, or concerning work: work clothes.
21. working (def. 18).
Verb, intransitive:
22. to do work; labor.
23. to be employed, esp. as a means of earning one's livelihood: He hasn't worked for six weeks.
24. to be in operation, as a machine.
25. to act or operate effectively: The pump will not work. The plan works.
26. to attain a specified condition, as by repeated movement: The nails worked loose.
27. to have an effect or influence, as on a person or on the mind or feelings of a person.
28. to move in agitation, as the features under strong emotion.
29. to make way with effort or under stress: The ship works to windward.
30. Naut. to give slightly at the joints, as a vessel under strain at sea.
31. Mach. to move improperly, as from defective fitting of parts or from wear.
32. to undergo treatment by labor in a given way: This dough works slowly.
33. to ferment, as a liquid.
verb, transitive:
34. to use or manage (an apparatus, contrivance, etc.): She can work many business machines.
35. to bring about (any result) by or as by work or effort: to work a change.
36. to manipulate or treat by labor: to work butter.
37. to put into effective operation.
38. to operate (a mine, farm, etc.) for productive purposes: to work a coal mine.
39. to carry on operations in (a district or region).
40. to make, fashion, or execute by work.
41. to achieve or win by work or effort: to work one's passage.
42. to keep (a person, a horse, etc.) at work: She works her employees hard.
43. to influence or persuade, esp. insidiously: to work other people to one's will.
44. Informal. to exploit (someone or something) to one's advantage: See if you can work your uncle for a new car. He worked his charm in landing a new job.
45. to make or decorate by needlework or embroidery: She worked a needlepoint cushion.
46. to cause fermentation in.
47. work in or into,
a. to bring or put in; add, merge, or blend: The tailor worked in the patch skillfully. Work the cream into the hands until it is completely absorbed.
b. to arrange a time or employment for: The dentist was very busy, but said she would be able to work me in late in the afternoon. They worked him into the new operation.
48. work off,
a. to lose or dispose of, as by exercise or labor: We decided to work off the effects of a heavy supper by walking for an hour.
b. to pay or fulfill by working: He worked off his debt by doing odd jobs.
49. work on or upon, to exercise influence on; persuade; affect: I'll work on her, and maybe she'll change her mind.
50. work out,
a. to bring about by work, effort, or action.
b. to solve, as a problem.
c. to arrive at by or as by calculation.
d. to pay (a debt) by working instead of paying money.
e. to exhaust, as a mine.
f. to issue in a result.
g. to evolve; elaborate.
h. to amount to (a total or specified figure); add up (to): The total works out to 176.
i. to prove effective or successful: Their marriage just didn't work out.
j. to practice, exercise, or train, esp. in order to become proficient in an athletic sport: The boxers are working out at the gym tonight.
51. work over,
a. to study or examine thoroughly: For my term paper I worked over 30 volumes of Roman history.
b. Informal. to beat unsparingly, esp. in order to obtain something or out of revenge: They threatened to work him over until he talked.
52. work through, to deal with successfully; come to terms with: to work through one's feelings of guilt.
53. work up,
a. to move or stir the feelings; excite.
b. to prepare; elaborate: Work up some plans.
c. to increase in efficiency or skill: He worked up his typing speed to 70 words a minute.
54. work up to, rise to a higher position; advance: He worked up to the presidency.

Synonyms:
1. WORK, DRUDGERY, LABOR, TOIL refer to exertion of body or mind in performing or accomplishing something.
WORK is the general word and may apply to exertion that is either easy or hard: fun work; heavy work.
DRUDGERY suggests continuous, dreary, and dispiriting work, esp. of a menial or servile kind: the drudgery of household tasks.
LABOR particularly denotes hard manual work: labor on a farm, in a steel mill.
TOIL suggests wearying or exhausting labor: toil that breaks down the worker's health.

2. enterprise, project, job, responsibility.
3. industry, occupation, business.
4. job, trade, calling, vocation, profession.
7. product, achievement, feat.
22. toil, drudge.
34. operate, manipulate, handle.
35. accomplish, effect, produce, achieve.
40. finish, form, shape.
43. move.
Click to expand...

KenH · Mar 23, 2003

So, Yelsew, in your understanding there is no difference between the faith of devils and your faith.

Yelsew · Mar 23, 2003

Originally posted by Ken H:
So, Yelsew, in your understanding there is no difference between the faith of devils and your faith.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, faith is faith! The difference is the object of the faith!

KenH · Mar 23, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
The difference is the object of the faith!
Click to expand...

There is no difference as you both believe in God.

npetreley · Mar 23, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ken H:
So, Yelsew, in your understanding there is no difference between the faith of devils and your faith.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, faith is faith! The difference is the object of the faith! [/QUOTE]Are you saying that these demons are saved?

Luke 8:26 Then they sailed to the country of the Gadarenes, which is opposite Galilee. 27 And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!"
Click to expand...

Frogman · Mar 23, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ken H:
So, Yelsew, in your understanding there is no difference between the faith of devils and your faith.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, faith is faith! The difference is the object of the faith! [/QUOTE]This difference is that the demons and the devil know the fact of who the Son of God was and is in eternity, this is not saving faith. This is why a mere intellectual knowledge of Christ is not enough to cut the grade and to save any soul, it must be by the power of the Holy Spirit working in the regeneration of the will of man. Only in this way are any saved, a mere decision to believe because of some emotional plea is as helpless and hopeless as the man who is lost. But this is a favorite of the devil to publish among men and is favorably received.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

Frogman · Mar 23, 2003

Synonyms:
1. WORK, DRUDGERY, LABOR, TOIL refer to exertion of body or mind in performing or accomplishing something.
WORK is the general word and may apply to exertion that is either easy or hard: fun work; heavy work.
DRUDGERY suggests continuous, dreary, and dispiriting work, esp. of a menial or servile kind: the drudgery of household tasks.
LABOR particularly denotes hard manual work: labor on a farm, in a steel mill.
TOIL suggests wearying or exhausting labor: toil that breaks down the worker's health.

2. enterprise, project, job, responsibility.
3. industry, occupation, business.
4. job, trade, calling, vocation, profession.
7. product, achievement, feat.
22. toil, drudge.
34. operate, manipulate, handle.
35. accomplish, effect, produce, achieve.
40. finish, form, shape.
43. move.
Click to expand...

is this taken from Jacobus Armenius' theological dictionary? These are the things that you espouse when first you practice the doctrines of free-will and Armenianism.

God Bless
Bro.Dallas

Yelsew · Mar 23, 2003

Originally posted by Ken H:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
The difference is the object of the faith!
Click to expand...

There is no difference as you both believe in God. [/QUOTE]Think about your answer Ken

Frogman · Mar 23, 2003

There is no question the devil believes and trembles.

Yelsew · Mar 23, 2003

Originally posted by npetreley:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ken H:
So, Yelsew, in your understanding there is no difference between the faith of devils and your faith.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, faith is faith! The difference is the object of the faith! [/QUOTE]Are you saying that these demons are saved?

Luke 8:26 Then they sailed to the country of the Gadarenes, which is opposite Galilee. 27 And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!"
Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]No I am not saying the demons are saved. Salvation is not for demons, but only for humans. If you can show me any scripture that indicates demons can be saved, we might start a topic to discuss it. Otherwise, any argument is equating the belief of man to the belief of demons is pure foolishness.

1 John 4:1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Click to expand...

Yelsew · Mar 23, 2003

Frogman

This difference is that the demons and the devil know the fact of who the Son of God was and is in eternity, this is not saving faith.
Click to expand...

If the demons and the devil "know" the fact of who Jesus is, there is no faith. Knowledge requires NO FAITH at all! So there can be no saving faith, because they already know and continue in their rebellion. There is no salvation for them!

This is why a mere intellectual knowledge of Christ is not enough to cut the grade and to save any soul, it must be by the power of the Holy Spirit working in the regeneration of the will of man. Only in this way are any saved, a mere decision to believe because of some emotional plea is as helpless and hopeless as the man who is lost. But this is a favorite of the devil to publish among men and is favorably received.
Click to expand...

You are simply misinformed, or you simply refuse to believe the truth.

Frogman · Mar 23, 2003

yet then it remains that the devil and the demons may one day be in heaven, after all they are believers in the very sense the world embraces this concept.

Brother Dallas

KenH · Mar 23, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Think about your answer Ken
Click to expand...

I have and this is what I have come up with. You are trying to defend romanbear's case that he made using a passage in James that talks about believing and works. You agree with him that this proves believing is not a work. I showed that James talks about believing by people and by devils. James did not differentiate between the two as for as their believing is concerned. Therefore, romanbear's and your attempt to use this passage to defend the extreme Arminian theory that believing is not a work fails in attempting to use this passage to make your case.

Just admit defeat and move on.

Yelsew · Mar 23, 2003

Originally posted by Ken H:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Think about your answer Ken
Click to expand...

I have and this is what I have come up with. You are trying to defend romanbear's case that he made using a passage in James that talks about believing and works. You agree with him that this proves believing is not a work. I showed that James talks about believing by people and by devils. James did not differentiate between the two as for as their believing is concerned. Therefore, romanbear's and your attempt to use this passage to defend the extreme Arminian theory that believing is not a work fails in attempting to use this passage to make your case.

Just admit defeat and move on. [/QUOTE]But you have not refuted my statements! You are merely repeating your own misinformed belief system.

Yelsew · Mar 23, 2003

Ken,

There is no difference as you both believe in God.
Click to expand...

There is a distinct difference in belief that something or someone exists, even having knowledge of that existence, and believing that that something or someone loves you and desires to save your from your impending doom.

KenH · Mar 23, 2003

Yelsew,

Look at the verses in James:

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James made no distinction here between what you or I believe and what the devils believe. THey very well know what Jesus has gained for His people. What the devils lack are any works as evidence that they are saved by God's amazing, sovereign grace.

Yelsew · Mar 23, 2003

Originally posted by Ken H:
Yelsew,

Look at the verses in James:

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James made no distinction here between what you or I believe and what the devils believe. THey very well know what Jesus has gained for His people. What the devils lack are any works as evidence that they are saved by God's amazing, sovereign grace.
Click to expand...

You hold in incorrect understanding of the scripture.

"Thou believest that there is one God" is saying what I said, "There is a distinct difference in belief that something or someone exists, even having knowledge of that existence,..." All of God's creation "believeth that there is one God". The whole of the Spirit realm KNOWS there is but one God. The devil and his demons, Know there is but One God. Knowing there is but one God, and believing in and submitting to that One God is not the same thing. The devil and the demons have set themselves against God and therefore cannot by any means be redeemed.

You also overlook this one fact,

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
Click to expand...

Evil spirits, or unregenerated spirits do not confess that Jesus is the Christ. Even the newest of believers confesses that Jesus is the Christ!

William C · Mar 23, 2003

Romanbear was pointing out the fact that scripture puts faith up against works as two different aspects, just as Paul does in Romans 3:27-31.

Faith is not considered a work, yet it is obviously seen an aspect that God hold's us responsible for.

He continually rebukes men for their lack of faith. If Calvinism is right, he shouldn't be rebuking them he sould be rebuking himself for not giving them faith. It's nonsence.

It would be like a teacher giving her students an F for not completing an assignment she hasn't even assigned to them. It just doesn't make sense.

Faith is not a work

romanbear New Member

KenH Well-Known Member

Yelsew Guest

KenH Well-Known Member

Yelsew Guest

KenH Well-Known Member

npetreley New Member

Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

Yelsew Guest

Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

Yelsew Guest

Yelsew Guest

Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

KenH Well-Known Member

Yelsew Guest

Yelsew Guest

KenH Well-Known Member

Yelsew Guest

William C New Member

Useful Searches

Faith is not a work

romanbear New Member

KenH Well-Known Member

Yelsew Guest

KenH Well-Known Member

Yelsew Guest

KenH Well-Known Member

npetreley New Member

Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

Yelsew Guest

Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

Yelsew Guest

Yelsew Guest

Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

KenH Well-Known Member

Yelsew Guest

Yelsew Guest

KenH Well-Known Member

Yelsew Guest

William C New Member